Haven Mines - Should resting be allowed now?

[Makashi]

A few players have mentioned about not being able to rest in haven mines, being quite harsh because of the difficulty increase, even though it makes a nice challenge and means you have to have a large group to go there.


Just wondering what others think about this?

[Interia_Discordius]

I'd prefer only some places rest-able...Not the entire cave. Maybe certain areas shielded and in the shadows? Definitely gives it a more dungeony dangerous feel to it.

[Tanman]

I kind of disagree. If we did have a resting area,  there is going to be a party of 20 going in there do a complete run and no RP (i have seeen this on central and in the haven cave in the past) and then come out again with gems which I think is unfair and is not in the spirit of things

I think if there was a compromise, there should be safe area that they are allowed to rest and not just anywhere.

And those safe areas should only be one after each of the three levels.

Overall the difficulty level of the server is better. There is not many runs that people do and a lot of people are very wary now of where they go. Kudos to the people that did this. It is well done.

EDIT: Inertia beat me to it in regards to my suggestion.

[minerva]

The not being able to rest in the mine is nice feature that promotes the use of a balanced party and planning and not bash/rest/bash/rest to successfully adventure there. I like it just as it is, even with it's new occupants.

[hawklen]

Its murder for spellcasters going to the bottom. If they need to go to the bottom, usually invisi down, fight, invisi up.

A campfire or something half way would be nice.

[Dorganath]

Um yeah Hawklen....let's not encourage that, OK?

If it's murder for spellcasters, then the spellcasters should bring friends.  That's the point, not to make it a (pardon the pun) haven for solo casters.

The mines weren't no-rest because of the ogres.  The underlying reason for the lack of rest there likely has not been resolved just because there's new inhabitants.

Some of the most brutal places on Layonara are no-rest areas.

[gilshem ironstone]

I love Haven, it is like a bench-mark for prowess and the best place I have been for testing tactics.  They actually matter a whole bunch there.  Please do not change it.

[Praylor Falcus]

It's hard to RP in a epic level death trap, and as to the rest issue. It's moot ! Haven has become an encounter that requires epic level charcters,and not ones personal stash of valuable CNR. I advise all newer and lower level characters to avoid this area like the plague.
 
We are told west is a starter server, this level encounter as are many of the others in V3 are classic signs of LDMS, while the monty haul dungeon is to be avoided the opposite is also true. Haven in it's current state is a central or low level east encounter, to put it on the starter server and deny new characters access to critical CNR that many of us had access to is not just wrong , it's sad.
 
If west is truly the starter server then 98% of the encounters should be doable by a party of 7 to 10 seventh level characters, anything else will only promote the server hopping to central to milder level encounters and the dreaded power leveling. What I'm trying to say is by taking away areas on west doable by characters level 1-7 you give them no options but to seek experience in place they have a slim chance to survive. To limit them to one or two areas, the boredom factor creeps in and they will wander.
 
Denial of critical CNR from characters will kill the crafting base, and while those adept at certain crafts my have a windfall for a while, when they finally do die whom will take their place.........will iron and wood and gems be piled like salt and sugar are now for free in the middle of town to fill the void

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I have to strongly disagree with everything Praylor said.

There are other places to find that CNR! Just because it's a tougher area, now, doesn't mean it's been "claimed by the epics." West is the starting server. That does NOT NOT NOT NOT mean that it has to be only for starting characters!

There are many and varied places that a reasonably-balanced party in the 5-14 range can go on West. Just because you (a general you) can't go on your Haven runs anymore doesn't mean the balance has been broken, only restored.

EDIT: Besides, I was the absolute highest level character in a group who repeatedly tackled those stupid gnolls time and again when they were first introduced to the area. If a well-balanced party around level 12 can do it, what's the issue?

EDIT AGAIN: Oh, yeah, the original post. Anyhow... I think that a few of the later areas should be allowed for resting... Maybe one, smack in the middle. If it's possible, though, make it so that it has to A: be unlocked first, and B: be closed for the characters to rest inside.

[Acacea]

Haven is a result of a DMed quest, you can talk to the people who were on it or the DM who made the gnolls! It's very poorly thought out to bash automatically because areas have changed, assuming that the idea is to keep a precious treasure all for a particular group...as stated by Stephen, there are other places to find CNR! Instead of complaining automatically because suddenly people can't solo in a place they had the spawns and tactics memorized for, then leaping to flame people one views as threatening because they have something one doesn't - whether levels, DM powers, WL status, better gear, whatever - is in rather poor taste. Try asking questions or actually looking around instead of expecting everything to be the same forever. It's supposed to be a dynamic world, yet everyone freaks out when things change, thinking it must surely be to kill players that aren't liked or to keep things for the elite...never that gee, maybe events occurred there that warranted it, and to compensate the goods have been moved somewhere else.

Not to sound like a Disney movie, but seriously bad attitude, man. Stuff is still being changed around and adjusted, it's not like The Man is out to get you.

As a note, Haven actually has a whole haunted story thing going on for it somewhere in there that was there to explain some of the resting limitations. Don't know if it's being changed or not.

[Praylor Falcus]

"Um West is the starter server? Characters level 1-7 are restricted to this server by the rules, A well balanced party around 12th level should be on central. I mean your not restricted to west they are, I just say give them as much space as you had, you have removed several areas they used to be able to enter and not replaced them with like amount of areas, thus shrinking their world and enlarging yours..........What is it your not understanding, All i am asking for is fairness and the same rights for them as we had, is this wrong. If it is i waste my breath

[Pankoki]

First of all, read this link: Haven Story.

Now, the Haven Mines were pretty much how they were in V2 for ages. Literally years, as you can see by the 2004 post that I just linked to. With the  coming of V3 a DM took the effort of actually spicing it up some and create a more in depth story of the mine and change it. He knew that the area was going to be far from the starting location and warranted a change.

Thus the Gnolls were introduced.

I've seen small parties of level 10-14 take these mines with barely a scratch. And that was on the first release of the mines when V3 came out. They were slightly lowered in difficulty since then and thus it should be even easier to tackle on.

With that said, the ore that was there, and the gems that were there have been moved elsewhere. The mines are not as full of iron as they were due to overmining (both in character and out of character), so people need to explore to find the new locations. And they should have the same difficulty to getting to them as they did with the prior Haven Mines.

I considered removing the no-rest zone when remaking them, however due to the ghost story I kept it and hopefully if time allows it, I will be placing some flavour text and night spawns to represent the hauntings.


Your attitude is in a severe need of checking Praylor, you need to get the chip off of your shoulder because no one is out to get anybody here. Do you seriously think that the people making all these changes even get the time to play as much as they wish to in order to supposedly horde all these things? Heh I doubt it...

[Praylor Falcus]

First off as to people being out to get me ? DOn't feel that way at all, If  you go back and calmly read my post , you will see my concern is not for me but the newer characters.
 
  Thier is nothing in haven i can't get in greater quanity and more varied variety on dregar, My point is lost in the apperant feelings i am out to bad mouth someone, I will try again to explain my point and please review my previous post and you will see this is the point i am trying to make .......west if it is a starter server, the majority of it's encounters should be geared to them , as far as CNR they should be able to access this as "WE" have, maybe a little stronger , but the level of the encounters should encourage them to continue not give up. Again i am speaking for them coming up behind "ME" "NOT ME".

[Dorganath]

With respect, when you come out with comments like the "personal stash" for epics, it's very difficult to view your comment as "concern for newer characters", but rather comes off very much as an "us versus them" attitude, and one that I might add has no basis in fact. Do consider that when you use terms like that and other pointed language, it does come across as confrontational and abrasive.

There were areas on West in V2 that were over and above the normal challenge for the intended levels of the server, especially for solo groups. That is still true in V3, though they have shifted.

There's one thing though that has always been the same here in the 2.5 years I've been here, and that is change....everything changes...everything.  Some things get easier, others get harder. Most things are the way they are for a very good reason, and increasingly, those reasons are due to things that happened in-game, making this a living, breathing world.

And to touch on something that Pankoki said above, I myself have played maybe 5 hours total since V3 came out.  The rest of my not-so-free time has been spent adding value and experience to the game world for you to enjoy.  A lot of other "epics" have contributed to that as well, sacrificing their free time for those who came after them. I'm not asking for sympathy, but I'm taking personal exception to your inaccurate characterizations.

[jrizz]

I say keep it a no rest area. Also the new red light caves are a blast (even if we did get smashed up good). I am sure that a good well oiled group of 5 to 7 PCs in the 7 to 10 range will be able to make it through haven. Just dont make any mistakes DFU

[hawklen]

Well, for my fighter, his barkskin helm doesnt last so long, and he needs the extra AC. So in a decent size group, he still gets murdered

A small rest area halfway would be nice, but I could do without it. Just need to find an epic mage whose spells last 40 minutes to do the mine for him so he has a chance.

As for my cleric, his spells last 20 minutes max. Not enough time for a trip down then up. Plus, there is no groups he can join, since most are too low to go with and mine. So he just invisible's to the stuff he needs, bashes, mines, and returns as far as he can till his spells wear off, then invisible again.

As for group sizes. 5 is the max I like, anything more, and it makes NWN run like molasses on my end. I find when you get in a group, its either too small or too big. This is just my two cents, not any kind of criticism  My cleric is weaker than he appears, he just cheats to win

[Hellblazer]

There are many and varied places that a reasonably-balanced party in the 5-14 range can go on West. Just because you

The 7 level rule of party disagree with that Stephen.

Even when i twas only ogres, yo had to be at least level 8 to 10 and a good number in the party to be able to reach the coal, feldpsar and platy down the mine.

You don't ahve to be a high level char to be good in a craft and those cnrs quickly becomes needed. Feldspare as I know it is only found in haven, bears island or on Krashin. all of those areas are highly difficult for even a good size and blaced party of 8 to 10.

[Dorganath]

A few responses....

As for my cleric, his spells last 20 minutes max. Not enough time for a trip down then up. Plus, there is no groups he can join, since most are too low to go with and mine. So he just invisible's to the stuff he needs, bashes, mines, and returns as far as he can till his spells wear off, then invisible again.

This is exactly the reason why Leanthar has considered removing Invisibility from the game more than once.

My cleric is weaker than he appears, he just cheats to win

uh-huh

You don't ahve to be a high level char to be good in a craft and those cnrs quickly becomes needed.

This is something I've had a hard time with for a long time.

Why do people feel like they have to hit some high level in crafting at low character levels?...and then come up with all sorts of reasons why they "should" be able to get this or that CNR because they can hit X level in Y craft. *shrugs*

Oh, and please, people...let's not be giving out CNR locations on the forums.  You all know better than that.

And once more, a lot has changed.  Look around.  You might find something in places you didn't expect.

[Witch Hunter]

Not to nag anyone but lots of the people complaining don't take the time to adjust to the new setting.
They run down there with the same tactics they use for any other place and hope to win the day... Duh.

You have a huge selection of spells, half of them are NEVER used and could prove a far better replacement to the following (which happens a lot):

*Group enters cave*
*Clerics/wizards finish buffing themselves for no reason and proceed to buff the bashers/tanks with whats left thus running out of spells, which infact were only buff spells*
*Group runs down, beats their way to the 3ed level or so, most buffs run out and they die / group encounters enemy casters that cast elemental shields and other buffs and get beaten up*

Now this is the average group, I've seen others do it much better and some do it worse... regardless, there are plenty of spells the wizards/clerics could take instead of buffing themselves to help, because they don't really charge ahead and beat stuff so theres no actual reason for buffs.
There are also plenty of overlooked methods of fighting (AKA improved expertise on one basher, who'd be tanking, while the others beat the monsters) and plenty of others really.

What I'm really saying is... perhaps if you'd stop the:

Bob the Barbarian: Hi let's go down and hunt gnolls.
Mr.Pickles: Alright
*group runs down into the caves and dies*

And turn it into:

Bob the Barbarian: Hi let's go down and hunt gnolls.
Mr.Pickles: Alright, what sort of tactics do you use so I can better adjust my spellbook to aid us
Bob the Barbarian: Oh I beat things up and use bandages to heal myself...
Mr.Pickles: Alright, less heals and more buffs.. perhaps a few dispels for those nasty elemental shields too.
Bob the Barbarian: Yeah, maybe we can get more people to join us to lower the risk and stuff?
Mr.Pickles: Aye, but we'd have to ask them about their tactics so we can better adjust as a cooperative group and succeed in the task before us.
Bob the Barbarian: You are wise.


Perhaps then you'd have an easier monster-bash.

[Falonthas]

when v3 first came out i took drogo out and wandered around
being lvl 18 most places on mistone dont harm him

the wildlife dont bother him as a druid,so for a few rare exceptions had he to fear his home for the last 16 years.
however we then enter in the dark ages,and the strongest survive
what used to be little skinny creatures taken down with an arrow to the chest,
are now much more resistant ,as the constant breeding has evolved a stronger base of the clan

this is the example for all parts of the isle and im sure the other isles as well once they are given the evolution of years with the strongest survive

dont look at where you used to wander alone as ,oh well yesterday i could do this in a loincloth and skinning knife ,while today i had full plate and my magic blade and got cut to ribbons.

layonara is evolving
its just up to us to evolve with it
and yes the v2 chars who have been around since before bloods demise

should be teaching the young ,how to fight and how to survive

thats what elders do,and not just cause they are short lived races.

does it really make sense to have 75 year olds running about with aches and pains and groaning about their armor being too heavy for them anymore.

evolution is the key
the monsters have done it
can you evolve as well?


no resting should be had in haven,just more thinking