Layonara Monster-Spawn System

[Kindo]

First of all I must point out that I am not frustrated or angry about the matter that I am about to bring up, I only seek to find out why exactly this system works the way it does.

Since V3, the monster-spawning system was changed. At least I never noticed this in V2. Basically, there is a re-spawn-timer, but the monsters in question will not spawn before a character comes close enough to their trigger-area. As you enter the area, it is actually completely void of any monsters (with a few exceptions, that I have seen), and you won't actually find any monsters appearing until you have come close enough. This results in the phenomenon that you can be watching an area in the forest, spotting some CNR or whatever you want to lay your hands on. You do not see any enemies, but proceed with caution just in case. There is still nothing there, but then, suddenly, as you take one more step, there is a big group right on top of you!

This means that you have a really hard time mapping out an area, in a way of determining whether or not it is safe to go there, since you won't actually see any enemies until you are close enough (more often than not, one step away from them), and this actually leads to some very weird gameplay, where it is obvious that monsters literally appear out of nowhere. They are simply not there one second, and there the next. I realize this is how re-spawning usually works, but it is because they won't trigger until you are in a set trigger-area (for example, walking away), and that is what is making things weird. For example, you have just cleared an area in a cave to get your hands on some tasty minerals, and once you are done chiselling off that delicious Malachite, you as a player know that the group will re-appear suddenly, but not until you have started walking away from the area. This causes some minor irritation if you have had your ox with you, and you know that those nasty monsters will spawn right on top of it, and there is nothing you can do to save it from dying. Sure, these are situations that are easy to take necessary precautions for, but those will be precautions taken out of character, seeing how the character won't logically expect these monsters to appear out of thin air.

In any case, I think I have made my issue with this clear enough by now, and I would just like to know why the system looks like this. Is it somehow related to the party-level based strength of the spawns? If so, could the triggers for the spawns be changed to a wider area, so that you have a chance to spot them before you're actually standing in the middle of the group, because I have seen in some places that the monsters spawn at a significantly greater distance. Once again, I do not intend to make a big deal about this, seeing how I am certain there is a good reason behind this spawn-system we have, and I am only asking for some light to be shed on the subject.

Regards,

Kindo

[Talan Va'lash]

Everything you describe is the default nwn spawn system that we've always used and just about everyone uses.

There is an alternative but it's not fesible for everything on a large server.

Spawns that spawn too close to their triggers are bugs that should be posted and fixed.

[Weeblie]

Is this just in certain areas (i.e. certain spawns)? Or everywhere? Could you please give an example of where this might happen?

It is possible that this is due to the new encounter system, even though it's not something that has been noticed during testing. Another possibility is that the spawn locations have not been placed out in the specific area.

But, please give an example of the areas and we will surely investigate it further!

Edit: The new spawn system is in fact working just like the old one. Both are the Bioware encounter system "in core" and shouldn't differ, at least, not differ in a way that's noticeable by the players.

[Witch Hunter]

I know one of the spawners in the Vehl Crypts is RIGHT on its trigger.

[Pibemanden]

Storold and Mylindra was traveling in the forest cave on central and we had just cleared the last spawn when we walked a little bit around there to heal and get ready to mine the respawn hit right on our heads again. It could be a time out issue but hearing this I suspect that there was an aditional spawn trigger on the actual spawn point.

[Leanthar]

We need to know exactly what areas this is happening in. Essentially what is happening is that the trigger is drawn but there is no "spawn point" so the creatures are spawning at the location that the trigger is triggered. If it had a spawn point placed the creatures would be placed at that point and not on top of players heads. This is a bug and we need to get it fixed.

Please place a thread in Bug Reports and use that thread to give us the name of the area that this happens in, for each trigger that this is being caused by.

Thank you.

[Dorganath]

A few things...

Remember that your character's visual range is actually less than what you see in terms of landscape, at least as far as objects are concerned. By "objects" I mean placeables, creatures, other PCs...basically anything that is not part of the landscape.  So things can just seem to appear out of thin air, when in fact they were there.

There is always, always a respawn timer...and sometimes you may hit those just right (or wrong, depending) and be quite surprised by the proximity of creatures.  For example, if the respawn timer is 15 minutes and you enter the trigger zone 14 minutes after it was last triggered, then it is very possible that you will be taken by surprise by the appearance of monsters.

Periods of server lag due to heavy or prolonged use can throw absolutely everything off and things can and will act very strangely. In such cases, all bets regarding predictability are off.

It is true that the encounter system has changed from Bioware's default (which also has respawn timers, is subject to lag, etc.) to something we created specifically to give us some greater flexibility, such as being able to have encounters be different depending on the time of day.  There are some things that are important to point out, perhaps the most important one is that the logic on how many and what kinds of creatures get created has not changed from Bioware's default, nor has the mechanism by which the encounter actually produces the creatures.  The significant thing that changed is that now we have more precise control over whether or not something does appear.

With the most recent release (version 3.00.3), all of the encounters were converted over to our new style.  Prior to that, there was a mix of old and new.  This brings me to my final statement.

I have recently been made aware of a problem with the conversion to the new encounter system that could produce erratic or unusual results during game play.  The number of areas this would effect should be quite small, however.

Having said all of that, if you believe that there is something amiss with the encounters in a particular area, it's very important that you post something in the bug reports forum with specific area names with as much detail as possible. A general "this may not work right" comment is unfortunately not very helpful in figuring out if there is an issue and correcting it.

[Talan Va'lash]

Storold and Mylindra was traveling in the forest cave on central and we had just cleared the last spawn when we walked a little bit around there to heal and get ready to mine the respawn hit right on our heads again. It could be a time out issue but hearing this I suspect that there was an aditional spawn trigger on the actual spawn point.

Something thats been mentioned above but is worth emphasising is that if you are within the spawn trigger at the time that it becomes active again (when the spawn timer runs out from the last spawn) the spawn will be triggered even if you didn't "re-enter" the trigger. This is not a recent change and is the behaviour of the nwn encounter system.

This can result in the following situation:

You enter an encounter with a respawn time of X minutes, the spawn spawns normally.
You kill the spawn.
You stand around healing, gathering CNR, healing, resting and what not for X minutes.
The encounter respawns on top of you.

This has always been a possibility and is nothing new. It may not be the "best possible" behaviour but it isn't something we can modify very well and it does have a purpose, otherwise it would be possible to camp CNR indefinitely with no danger as long as you didn't "re-enter" the encounter trigger.

[Kindo]

Everything you describe is the default nwn spawn system that we've always used and just about everyone uses.
[...]
Spawns that spawn too close to their triggers are bugs that should be posted and fixed.

It is possible that this is due to the new encounter system, even though it's not something that has been noticed during testing. Another possibility is that the spawn locations have not been placed out in the specific area.
 [...]
The new spawn system is in fact working just like the old one. Both are the Bioware encounter system "in core" and shouldn't differ, at least, not differ in a way that's noticeable by the players.

Alright. I can assure you that I do not remember this being the case when I was playing the game a few years ago, pre-HotU, and it is also weird that I do not recall spawns appearing out of nowhere, triggered by character proximity, during V2 either. It sounds like my memory is to blame, in this case. One question, however: Are the spawns supposed to occur as you are leaving their spawning-area, considering the spawn-timer has ticked out? That is how it works now, for most if not all groups. They do not spawn as you are standing there, but the moment you take one step outside their area, they are there suddenly, armed to their teeth.

[...]Essentially what is happening is that the trigger is drawn but there is no "spawn point" so the creatures are spawning at the location that the trigger is triggered. If it had a spawn point placed the creatures would be placed at that point and not on top of players heads. This is a bug and we need to get it fixed.
 
Please place a thread in Bug Reports and use that thread to give us the name of the area that this happens in, for each trigger that this is being caused by.
 
Thank you.

That could explain a few things, because like I said, I do not notice this everywhere. I will make an attempt to note down the areas I notice this, and post it in the appropriate forum, now that I know there is some sort of bug/error involved.

Remember that your character's visual range is actually less than what you see in terms of landscape, at least as far as objects are concerned. By "objects" I mean placeables, creatures, other PCs...basically anything that is not part of the landscape. So things can just seem to appear out of thin air, when in fact they were there.

I am fully aware of this, and this is why I proceed with caution, one or two steps at a time. On the instances this happens to me, however, they have appeared out of thin air because they have entered my character's visual range, but they do, literally, spawn just a couple of feet ahead of me.

There is always, always a respawn timer...and sometimes you may hit those just right (or wrong, depending) and be quite surprised by the proximity of creatures. For example, if the respawn timer is 15 minutes and you enter the trigger zone 14 minutes after it was last triggered, then it is very possible that you will be taken by surprise by the appearance of monsters.

I am aware of this fact as well, so of course I would understand that I sometimes can have very bad timing like that, but it happens to frequent and too expectedly to just be a coincidence. I "know" that monsters are about to appear out of nowhere, just ahead of me.

Having said all of that, if you believe that there is something amiss with the encounters in a particular area, it's very important that you post something in the bug reports forum with specific area names with as much detail as possible. A general "this may not work right" comment is unfortunately not very helpful in figuring out if there is an issue and correcting it.

Yes, naturally I will try to be as detailed as possible when I can verify this occurrence in certain areas. Thank you all for the many replies so far. Again, this is not something hugely frustrating to me, since there are measures I can take, as a player, to prevent unfortunate mishaps that may come as results of this.


EDIT: I have now posted my first finding in this thread.

[Dorganath]

One question, however: Are the spawns supposed to occur as you are leaving their spawning-area, considering the spawn-timer has ticked out? That is how it works now, for most if not all groups. They do not spawn as you are standing there, but the moment you take one step outside their area, they are there suddenly, armed to their teeth.

To answer this specifically....

Not "leaving" the trigger area so much as "walking within" the trigger area during the time when the respawn timer expires can cause them to appear.  There's a momentary delay generally between when the encounter is triggered and when the creatures appear, and so while you may have exited the trigger's polygon, the spawn process may already have started.

In any case, we'll review any areas that are noted to be suspected as buggy, but lag and other factors as I mentioned can really play havoc with encounters in general.