Author Topic: Enchanting Holy Pool (Read 1877 times)

Witch Hunter · « **on:** April 04, 2007, 07:01:58 PM »

Alrighty then - heres a suggestion for the Enchanting Holy Pool.

Perhaps a bigger variaty of holy-like potions could be added? such as Aid, Lesser Restoration or even go as far as a Monstrous Regeneration potion (not a high level one... so it wouldn't be THAT effective)

Now sure one can say alchemists can do that and if one really wanted those potions he should become an alchemist, but these are divine blessings - not a mixture of a few herbs and some gem dust, and alchemists have other potions that are useful.

Another suggestion (which applies to Alchemy as well) - could "exceptional" healing potions be added? just potions that heal a bit more :p

AeonBlues · « **Reply #1 on:** April 04, 2007, 07:59:28 PM »

I always thought it was annoying that only an alchemist can make a "Heal" potion, as they are not available to craft in the enchanting pool.

AeonBlues

darkstorme · « **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2007, 08:38:18 PM »

@Aeonblues - the lack of Heal Potions has been discussed before, and the verdict was that it's simply too powerful a potion to be made the "easy way" (enchantment). Alchemical heal potions are quite difficult to make; the stipulation that Dorganath attached to the possibility of enchantment-based Heal potions would be that their ingredients would be as expensive/hard-to-find as their alchemical equivalent.

I would go so far as to say that potions like Monstrous Regeneration are not available to craft at the Enchanting Holy Pool for much the same reason - at a certain point, Clerics can crank out virtually any healing potion like water. This, logically, doesn't bode well if other potions are added to the possibilities.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #3 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:01:31 PM »

That's right. Ceviren can already crank out Moderate potions at 90% unbuffed with no stat rings. And he's character level 6.

What I'd like to see, actually, would be something like a Holy Hand Grenade. I.e. something on-par with the Fire and Acid Bombs, but with Holy Water.

Say, ten holy water and some diamond dust or something, with a DC equivalent to that of the other bombs.

Witch Hunter · « **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:04:42 PM »

I don't see how enchanting is the "easy way".
Let's face it, not everyone can affored enchanting oils to level it up quickly with various gems and such (which are also expensive), not everyone has the means to collect the extra bodak teeths and so forth so forth.
Sure it's easy the first 1-8 levels (Although it requires a LOT of time, resting between crafts mind you) but once pass that it becomes hard... Very hard.

Alchemy on the other hand has various potions for all levels to make, and the usefulness of those potions is well known (Death Armor, Oils, Stat Potions, Haste, Invisibility)... however, they also get access to better healing potions than a cleric would, and it's cheaper for them to make those that we make as it is.

I don't see why on earth will a high level cleric with the spell heal be unable to say... toss 3 bodak teeths, 9 skeleton knuckles and a whole bunch of luck craft himself a nice handy heal potion.

and don't come saying "well you can enchant elemental rods and stat gems"
Great, have you any clue how expensive it is to make those as a novice enchanter?

Not that I'm complaining mind you, just stating facts.
And it's not like alchemists don't get their own share of fun.. they can make silver/titanium enchantments, visual effects and so forth.

Huh... and how much sense does it make RP wise for someone whos an enchanter in the sense of "I bless waters with my gods divine power" to suddenly go and make him self a badbum wand that adds 1d6 -insert elemental type here- damage? Meh.

But hey, I wasn't even asking for heal potions - I was asking for aid, antidote and lesser restoration

edit:

Quote

That's right. Ceviren can already crank out Moderate potions at 90% unbuffed with no stat rings. And he's character level 6.

And tell me, if we're being fair here and not running to the arena in Vehl for rests

How many potions does he make per rest? 3-4 at best?... alrighty.
So he can make 4 potions of cure moderate wounds per rest, they're alright I admit... but let's move up a step and look at cure serious wounds... which is still a rather weak potion

An alchemist can make those moderate potions just like you and I can, he can even make them faster because he doesn't need to rest - Greenstone and Aloe are very simple to get too, mind you.

I wasn't even aiming at starting alchemy but I managed to gather 3 boxes of Aloe and a whole lot of Greenstone dust with barely any effort... while gathering a million knuckles and then the rest periods... which are horrible - tough.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #5 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:19:25 PM »

Cure essence is easy. Healing essence isn't. Sapphire dust, anyone?

Enchanting really is "the easy way." And no, I haven't been running to Vehl. I've just been on constantly. Spring Break, baby.

Getting hundreds of skeleton's knuckles is easy; I should know, I have literally hundreds of moderate potions on me. And that's the hard part about a Cleric learning Enchanting.

Also, getting gems without killing anything is almost impossible on one's own. Luckily, I know a Berylite.

Getting gems, period, isn't that hard.

Cranking out hundreds of potions with Alchemy is way more time-intensive than with Enchanting. Enchanting is an easy I-Win button for potionmaking... Which is why they've limited the types of potions that can be made.

Adding an Enchanting Heal would probably take a Lich Dust, two Bodak's Teeth, six Skeleton's Knuckles, and a sprinkling or three of sapphire dust.

Myself, I'd be overjoyed just to have a Holy Hand Grenade. Maybe have it require a Gem of Cure X Wounds or Light or something.

merlin34baseball · « **Reply #6 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:20:40 PM »

My character was busting her behind to make cure moderate wound potions through alchemy. Her Cleric friend found out and in about half an hour gave her 5 stacks of ten... (a half hour is exagerating, but put it this way, I don't make healing potions anymore... not when my character was basically laughed at for doing something the absurdly hard way)

And as far as Heal potions go, have you seen the ingredients? I am a level 13 alchemist and still have only about a thirty percent chance at making one, and keep in mind there are two chances for failure, and thats for one potion.

So alchemists have to take way more time to produce what they produce.

Edited!
GAH STEVEN! I was just typing all that!

Witch Hunter · « **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:23:12 PM »

Quote

Also, getting gems without killing anything is almost impossible on one's own. Luckily, I know a Berylite. Getting gems, period, isn't that hard.

Quote

Cure essence is easy. Healing essence isn't. Sapphire dust, anyone?

Tadda.

But again... I'm not asking for heal potions!! *smacks everyone around a bit*

AID....ANTIDOTE....LESSER RESTORATION!

repeat after me!

merlin34baseball · « **Reply #8 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:25:59 PM »

Hums a tune:

AID....ANTIDOTE....LESSER RESTORATION!

repeat after me!

AID....ANTIDOTE....LESSER RESTORATION!

repeat after me!

Kind of catchy really

AeonBlues · « **Reply #9 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:37:34 PM »

Ha HA!!

I agree with you witch hunter, that is a very good idea.

*resists urge to write more on heal potions*

AeonBlues

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #10 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:37:45 PM »

I think Antidote as a VERY high level item, probably also taking mushroom powder, would be fitting, along with Lesser Restoration. But they'd take some serious CNR and some serious levels.

Witch Hunter · « **Reply #11 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:52:34 PM »

I don't mind difficulty and all that mumbo jumbo... I just think they fit within the holy-enchanting theme and that holy-enchanting needs more potions.

Dorganath · « **Reply #12 on:** April 04, 2007, 10:00:18 PM »

As someone who struggled his character up through alchemy, I have to say your analysis is a bit flawed.

Cure Moderate potions are a "level 6" recipe in alchemy versus "level 5" in enchanting. Aloe is easy to get, but it takes time to do in quantity.

In alchemy there are at least 2 steps to make a Cure Moderate potion, the first being essences, the second being the final potions. An "average" level 6 alchemist has a 50% chance of making the final potion and an 80% chance of making each essence, of which 2 are required for each Cure Moderate potion. In addition, there is the added ingredient of comfrey root, which is also easy to get but 2 of those are needed for each Cure Moderate potion. So in total, for each alchemical Cure Moderate, there are 2 sprigs of aloe, 4 dusts of Greenstone, 2 comfrey roots, 2 vials and 1 flask required. You'll notice that each of these, with the vials and bottles excepted, are located in different locations and some need to be processed using another craft skill with its own chance of failure.

In Enchanting, the requirements are 1 holy water, 6 skeleton knuckles, a flask and a spell. If we compare apples and apples, the level 6 enchanter has a slightly better chance of making the final potion with less risk of failure (fewer overall steps) and less time cost in terms of components, as it's frightfully easy to get boxes full of knuckles in a short time...and such sources are generally nearby at least one enchanting pool. *points to Hlint*

Going down the list, Cure Serious in alchemy is Level 12 and has about double the resource requirements as Cure Moderate, in Enchanting it's only level 7 and only has shifted (but not more) component requirements

Cure Critical is level 14 in alchemy (and again significantly increased requirements), level 12 in Enchanting.

So, just looking at what is needed and how much time it takes, enchanting the potions is significantly easier than making them through alchemy. Also, making potions through alchemy is open to everyone, whereas making them through enchanting is only open to those classes who can cast healing spells...and let's be honest, it's pretty much a cleric-only subset of enchanting.

So as a player, I would agree that the Enchanting way to create potions is easier, or at least faster, than the Alchemy way.

EDIT: Yes, I know you're asking for Aid, Lesser Restore, etc....but again, more avenues for rapid advancement in Enchanting really aren't necessary, especially with the exploitable bugs regarding crafting and spontaneously castable spells. Everything in Alchemy is slow due to the need to gather widely dispersed ingredients. Sure, we could add it to Enchanting, but for balance reasons, it would probably have to be accompanied by a varied list of other ingredients...at which point, you might as well take up Alchemy.

AeonBlues · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2007, 10:30:49 PM »

Quote from: Dorganath

Everything in Alchemy is slow due to the need to gather widely dispersed ingredients. Sure, we could add it to Enchanting, but for balance reasons, it would probably have to be accompanied by a varied list of other ingredients...

Actually, there is a very easy and quick way to advance from levels 7 to 12 in alchemy. This cheesy, "I am practicing alchemy" method has been made much easier with the V3 release.

AeonBlues

Dorganath · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2007, 11:59:40 PM »

Thanks for the tip.

Fixed in next update.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2007, 12:35:38 AM »

WHAT!? I never even heard about that! *Sniffles.*

Witch Hunter · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2007, 12:45:45 AM »

Ok than how about just aid? JUST AID?!

It's not even good! increase our variaty!!!

Weeblie · « **Reply #17 on:** April 05, 2007, 03:01:16 AM »

I am strongly against adding more potions to the enchanting pool, simply because I believe priority should be given to add them to alchemy instead.

Enchanting is such a wide craft already. You can make items (like, the Circlet). You can make healing potions. You can make elemental rods/dusts. You can make enchanted gems.

And what's more... A huge amount of the end products are either used by other crafts or used directly. With used, I also mean "useful".

Alchemy is a craft that takes much, much more time to be good at (I would gladly sacrifice all Allei's enchanting levels for Alchemy levels instead!). It's much more time consuming. It's much more resource consuming. And the products from that craft has less use, unless you reach a very high level of alchemy levels. The only potions I've ever seen be crafted is the Heal Potions and the Invisibility Potions (unless you count the potions people tend to make to gain levels in alchemy).

Soooo... Leave the potion-making to Alchemy!

And... Yes... I'm saying this in the point of view as a level... 16 or 17 enchanter (can't remember exactly what level

).

Witch Hunter · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2007, 09:37:05 AM »

Oh alchemy is never used Weeblie?
Let me list:

Silver/Titanium Enchantments
Oils (Which might sound dumb to you -but a bundle of enchanting oils is expensive)
Various Essences (I believe some are even used in enchanting)
Various Potions (I've seen death armor used a lot as well as stat potions)
Various Visual Effects (Heck, you use them (: )

Enchanting?

Healing Potions
Damage/Resistance Rods
Gems required for various things (which isn't too good since gem crafting is a very hard skill to level)

And... well, class-based rings.

Now you said potion-making, yes, I agree! leave the POTION making to alchemy!

Leave the blessing holy waters into various goods of your god to enchanting clerics, paladins and druids! (:

Any spell I suggested is a divine spell which should not be (as far as im considered) in the alchemy range of potions - how is it possible to create something one channels from a god by combining mushrooms and some dusts?...

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2007, 09:57:40 AM »

Because the Antidote potion is not the same as the Neutralize Poison spell. The Bless potion is more of a Luck potion than anything (and Pyyran calls them such). Aid, likewise, is just an alchemical boost of goodness. Death Armor funnels the energy through your body and out your skin... Antidote, in particular, just pumps your body full of antitoxins so much that no poison could STAND to be there. (This is part of my RP reason for Pyyran studying Poisoncraft.)

And so on and so forth.

Okay, so there are quite a few useful things in Alchemy. Sure. I agree. But they're not useful in the same QUANTITY. You wouldn't spam alchemical Cure Moderate Wounds potions, because they're expensive to make (and, IC, it could probably make you very sick). But Enchanted potions? Wow. Six knuckles. At two hundred a box, that makes each potion cost slightly more than forty True. Aloe goes for ten times that, and greenstone's harder to get in V3 than it was in V2. I'm ecstatic over a(n) (amazing) deal for nine boxes of the stuff, but it costs half again what an adamantine weapon does. Nine boxes of knuckles is barely 1.8k.

On Layonara, in order to have a potion "Work," or do whatever it is that it does, you have to have A) the power to generate the effect, B) the medium to transfer that effect, and C) an agent that binds the power to the medium. With healing potions in Enchanting, you've got the moderately low-power cure spell, the holy water, and the ground up skeleton's knuckles. In alchemy, you've got the combination of the reaction between aloe, greenstone, and garlic/comfrey and your body's own recuperative powers, the water and aloe juice, and the greenstone and garlic/comfrey.

With Bless, it's Spells/Holy Water/Blessed state of the water, and Alchemical-pick-me-up/Walnuts in water/Malachite dust. The two kinds of potions really don't work the same way at all... Nor do any potions that are the "same" in Alchemy and Enchanting.