Evil Character Submissions

[Polak76]

Greetings all.

I felt that this topic is worth a discussion.

Whilst I enjoy reading all the evil character submissions and am in the process of submitting my own, I'm a little worried how the community reacts to reading them.

Understanding that this is a family server could some of these submissions be too graphic?  I feel that good detail is needed for writing a good bio, yet if there are youths playing online it might be a little 'overkill' (excuse the pun).

So I was thinking, would it be feasible to have either a seperate site for evil character submissions that have an 15+ age classification or a disclaimer that states these characters are fabricated for RP value and are to not be taken seriously?

With what transpires in the Real World these days, I think these aspects deserve some attention.

On a final note I feel ths community is mostly mature and such things may not be neccessary.  This is just a precaution.

Cheers,
Polak76

[Dezza]

I have a bigger concern here with 'evil' characters establishing themselves in game. Evil comes with a lot of baggage and often evil characters are the miscreants, troublemakers, murderers in the society. While this is a family server there is always going to be the risk that someone goes too far both in game or in their CDT. There always has been a risk I suppose but adding evil has just increased that risk considerably.

A lot of practice is going to be needed for 'alluding to this' and 'alluding to that' without actually saying what occured.

I know my character Sipher has attended some borderline graphic Corathite spectacles.

So while we probably cant do anything about it as long as we keep it aware in peoples minds perhaps we can keep a lid on it.

[Masterjack]

I'm not into playing evil characters but, I do understand what he is getting at. Maybe we can do something like what you do for private character development journals.

Masterjack

[Pseudonym]

I agree this must be handled carefully.

Opening the server up to evil characters means that we will perhaps see more anti-social and reprehensible behaviour, both in the (required) extensive bios for such characters and in their in-game antics.

I'm not sure a M+ forum is appropriate or necessary. I think one of the great things about Layo is that it is a family server and I get the impression that this is one thing  that L feels very strongly about maintaining. A difficult balance in a game where killing things is an (almost) everyday happening for our characters.

As for too graphic narratives? Again ... a fine line. Bios for evil characters must necessarily (in order to receive approval) be detailed and stealing someone's lunch money doesn't (to me) quite cut it as a valid reason for an evil alignment. Inferrence in writing the submissions will be important in these cases.

[AeonBlues]

I am dubious with the whole evil character thing my self.  Perhaps the evil comes out in DM events, but for the most part I am not seeing evil RP.  I am hearing evil talk, but saying and doing is two different things.

I think that a lot of characters with evil alignment are not acting IC because they fear they will be excluded from group events.  I can understand characters hiding their evilness, but if you're not doing evil, then why play a character with an evil alignment?  Cause it's cool?

There are a few characters that I have associated with that I know have evil alignments from reading character submissions.  I make conscious efforts to not meta-game, so my characters opinions are based on what he sees and hears.  A good handful of characters have made mine angry because they are arrogant or stupid, but none because they are doing evil deeds.

AeonBlues

[Gunther]

If the evil character is at all intelligent, we shouldnt see evil RPing.  As by far the majority of characters are good (and as they've been around the longest, they're also far more powerful), evil PCs should be keeping their mouths shut about heinous and wicked they are (at least til they get some strength of their own going for them).

The large majority of good adventurers spend their time hacking down evil critters, liches, drow, dwarfs, etc.  You name it, if its evil its probably been killed by somebody.  And the good PCs swagger about wearing their addy or cobalt armor, waving their mithril or addy weapons.  An evil PC would have to be the most foolish individual ever to start espousing their evil viewpoints.

Honestly, in my opinion, even if and when an evil PC gets powerful, they'd probably be smart enough to still keep quiet.  They'd be grossly outnumbered.

If an evil PC gets excluded from a group, well....they should.  If its known that they're evil, why on earth would a good aligned group of characters associate with them.  If the PC is overly evil and is known for commiting various crimes and then bragging about them, I'd expect the good PCs to discretely do away with the evil doer (with all the prejudice they'd show to an evil NPC), not invite them for tea and crumpets.

As for the character submissions, I tend to think these are brand new adventurers.  Fresh off the farm.  How vicious can they really have been so far.  On the other hand, I really dont want to know.

[kuchida]

A couple things that come to mind..

First, alignment should kind of scale with the character's power and influence. Whether a peasant is good or evil doesn't matter too much to anyone but their immediate friends and family. But if someone in power or who holds a lot of power is evil a whole city city or country would be affected.  So whether a character is "good" or "evil" when they start out shouldn't matter all that much anyway, since any first level character is going to be a peon who is going to have to ask for help to get anywhere..

Second I think a well played (and intelligent or charismatic, not monstrous) evil player could save their "evil" for when it really matters, and not just demonstrate it by causing friction in groups as much as they can. In real life the most evil people I have met have been those who have been my best friends until they stabbed me in the back and continued to smile after doing so.  Evil is many things besides just being an antisocial jerk...   And many sociopaths with a complete lack of guilt or compassion tend to do be very well liked, admired and do well in society.  I mean.. look at Paris Hilton.

[Polak76]

I agree with all the posts about how to play them.  Our group of Corathites have been discrete for as far as I can remember and done quite a good job of it (mind you not many of us did have an evil alignment).   I'm just hoping i guess that people are not taking offence to character submissions when they detail some brutal acts how a character 'became evil'.  If no one takes offence than this post is irrelevant.

Cheers,
Polak76

[AeonBlues]

I understand why an evil person would hide being evil.  Jack the Ripper doesn't walk up to a stranger in the market and start talking about how he gutted some poor fella.  Hannibal the Cannibal smirks quietly while his dinner guest compliment his pate'.

But umm, Given that many of our server rules ward against evil behavior.  Along with the peer pressure fact that if you want to advance levels by hunting you have to work reasonably well with groups.  I don't see why people are submitting for evil alignments.  The concept of picking an alignment that you are not going to be able to adaquetly RP is a bit illusive to me.

AeonBlues

[Falonthas]

playing evil is condusive to working with groups
if you note that the definitions of evil give basic guidelines

for instance
say your char and an evil one are travelling together you get ambushed and are lying their bleeding to death as he finishes off the foe

he may heal you
he may leave you to die
he may wait for you to recover and tell you he had no means of healing you
he may take something from you he desired and just walk off into the sunset
he may speed your death along
all these things can be done by an evil char
but wait
you say you have seen good chars do this and then have an answer for why

maybe they arent as good as you think they are
or maybe you shouldnt prejudge and see what happens

or maybe they are the most dispicable evil to walk the land since blood went insane and you just dont know it

evil doesnt wear a neon sign
matter of fact
some that may make you think they are evil
are hiding what they truly are
loners
anti elfs(this applies to any race)
or maybe they just dont want you beside them so they will act a certain way to irk you

as long as the end justifies the means evil will thrive and he/she will look just like everyone else

[Pseudonym]

... if you want to advance levels by hunting you have to work reasonably well with groups.  I don't see why people are submitting for evil alignments.  The concept of picking an alignment that you are not going to be able to adaquetly RP is a bit illusive to me.

AeonBlues

I would say being evil does not preclude an ability to work well with a group. Especially a LE character. I would imagine they might work within a group dynamic more harmoniously that even a CG character?

The only evil PCs I have encountered in game are (and I only know this OOC) are Daralith, Chanda, Rufus and G'ork and I would think they ranked among the best RPers on server.

My main character's regular run group on a (AEST) Thursday night are IC pragmatic enough that they allow all comers, Good, Evil, whatever, as long as they fill a required role. Why would a group (that wasn't made up entirely of paladins) mining in Haven not welcome G'ork as a frontliner? My CN rogue doesn't much care if he then goes and does something evil with his share of the spoils ... as long as he does his job at the time.

[jrizz]

Those are very experienced players. I think the bar needs to be higher for evil PCs. Nine months and level 14 PC may not be enough.

When there are more evil PCs, they will find eachother and form groups. Then the game is afoot.

[Chongo]

Preface:  I've always felt alignment it relative, and mostly disagree with it.  Paladins and Blackguards are extremely similar, it just depends on your audience to say who the paladin is.  Obviously the difference lies in core beliefs, and to what means you'll meet them.  The means is what I would say is the main difference.
 
 When I think of lawful evil, I think of Liam Neeson's character in the newer batman begins movie.
 
 He's not insane, he's not a disgusting and repressed individual who can not communicate or relate to the world.  He sees a core problem, evil!  And he's fairly virtuous, in a paladin sort of way, except for his chosen means of resolving evil... which is pretty evil in itself.  This I'd say is LE.  An individual who would be lawfully good to those of his same interests, but would chose unethical means of pursuing goals in a relentless manner.
 
 Call the example simplistic and lacking a stylish or witty historical example... but this one sticks for me and is a perfect example.
 
 So in regard to character applications, the level of 'evil' present in a submission or in their history... to be honest I'd be just as worried writing up my paladin submission as I would my LE would-be blackguard.  The color would come in their turning point, when they chose means that betrayed goodness and the ability to reflect on that chance that every individual should deserve.  And then pursuing those means, with decisiveness, conviction, and true belief that they can ignore the rights and chance that individual deserves for the 'greater good' they believe in.
 
 The charismatic lawful evil character?  I'd contend they'd be one of the most honored people in a community, because they probably do actually care for and about their community around them.  And he/she probably decisively cuts down thieves in that community to keep it 'good', a sentiment that many would respect them for, especially with the supporting charisma and personality.
 
 So colorful histories?  To address the main question... of course that main turning aspect of the 'means' is going to be evil in nature... but it doesn't have to be grotesque, and I would contend anything grotesque and not supported by the true feelings and intentions of a turned soul would be boring and lacking depth.  That's just me though.
 
 NE, the only other available evil alignment... this gets a lot edgier in my opinion, because it's self-centered, and by default can cover such a wide spectrum of evil and wrong-doings.  Murderers, thieves... anything surrounding personal gain can be quite touchy.  But again, where I to make a character I think would be viable and interesting for Layo, I'd skip everything grotesque and put those very adult concepts into the confused and internally torn battle that only adults will really relate to instead of making them incredibly tangible and graphic to every reader.
 
 Hope that helps with the actual question there bub.

[Polak76]

I understand why an evil person would hide being evil.  Jack the Ripper doesn't walk up to a stranger in the market and start talking about how he gutted some poor fella.  Hannibal the Cannibal smirks quietly while his dinner guest compliment his pate'.

But umm, Given that many of our server rules ward against evil behavior.  Along with the peer pressure fact that if you want to advance levels by hunting you have to work reasonably well with groups.  I don't see why people are submitting for evil alignments.  The concept of picking an alignment that you are not going to be able to adaquetly RP is a bit illusive to me.

AeonBlues

It's quite the opposite for me.
If it wasn't for the great RPers in the Corath gang I wouldn't be here today.

I've played many chars from LG to CN and none in my opinion had as much RP richness as it did when I joined Corath with Ramanon three years ago.
Yes we can't openly kill others or beat our chests proclaming our faction, but for you to make the comment about not seeing the benefit for making an evil character actually makes me feel quite proud that we've been doing such a great job at being descrete.

Oh, and we most certainly do conduct some nasty things out there.  I guess you've got to be involved to understand.

Anyway I'm excited with what new things will evolve since evil alignment was granted.  I think we're in for some fun times ahead.

Polak76

[Varka]

To: Gunther I agree with your statement, but there is a difference here.
One thing is what is written here in the forum, but when it actually comes to an in game confrontation - I see it differently from what I have experienced.


To Polak:
A good idea concerning the submissons, but when it comes to In game situations only among players or a quest where there is 8-15 people - evilness becomes "art" meaning.
It will be hard to balance the game in such a way that all participants will have a good experience of RP due to various aspects such as alingment, family server etc..
I said hard - not impossible

[Polak76]

To: Gunther I agree with your statement, but there is a difference here.
One thing is what is written here in the forum, but when it actually comes to an in game confrontation - I see it differently from what I have experienced.


To Polak:
A good idea concerning the submissons, but when it comes to In game situations only among players or a quest where there is 8-15 people - evilness becomes "art" meaning.
It will be hard to balance the game in such a way that all participants will have a good experience of RP due to various aspects such as alingment, family server etc..
I said hard - not impossible

Agreed.

[Weeblie]

Those are very experienced players. I think the bar needs to be higher for evil PCs. Nine months and level 14 PC may not be enough.

In the end, the exact number of months and levels matters very little as all evil submissions requires support from the DM team to get approved for anyway (understandable really, due to the number of concerns that sticks with evil characters).

In my own opinion, due to Layonara being a family server, evil submissions should go for the "betrayal/backstabbing" sort of evil rather than the "slaughter/torture" sort of evil. Instead of describing how the character smoothed the king in his bed, describe how he sold the state secrets for a nifty amount of gold which had the impact of bringing the kingdom to ruins. Keep the raping, killing, "blood" part down, or even better, remove that altogether.

[Drizzlin]

I am dubious with the whole evil character thing my self.  Perhaps the evil comes out in DM events, but for the most part I am not seeing evil RP.  I am hearing evil talk, but saying and doing is two different things.

I think that a lot of characters with evil alignment are not acting IC because they fear they will be excluded from group events.  I can understand characters hiding their evilness, but if you're not doing evil, then why play a character with an evil alignment?  Cause it's cool?

There are a few characters that I have associated with that I know have evil alignments from reading character submissions.  I make conscious efforts to not meta-game, so my characters opinions are based on what he sees and hears.  A good handful of characters have made mine angry because they are arrogant or stupid, but none because they are doing evil deeds.

AeonBlues

I can't speak for everyone, but keep in mind that a lot of the evil pcs are NE. That means they are in it for themselves and their actions are evil in nature. I think too many people expect CE when they hear evil. Evil is a deed, it is a mind set. Let me give you a small example.

My pc was with a group down in the rift, and a few of them died. My pc could have raised them all, but he chose not too. In fact the party was trying to bribe and pay him to do it. Instead he looked at them, the sack full of diamonds, and said no. My PC told them the less that are alive, the more diamonds to go around. (Now ooc we shared the diamonds completely, but I made sure the group know IC that it did not happen. My pc refused to share the diamonds with the dead who did nothing). Not only did my pc refuse to help, but he was amused by their suffering and the anguish on the party members who survived. He laughed at them and smirked at their pain.

Was the act evil? I would say a good aligned PC would have gone out of her way to help those in need, so I would say it was definitely NOT good. However, the important part of that act, is not the act itself, it is the fact that my pc found amusement in doing it. The evil behind the act was watching them suffer and enjoying it all the while.

Evil, especially here with the limitations of Layonara and the rules, is a state of mind for the most part. As a player of an Evil PC on Layo, one who earned it over the course of 3 years and a CDT, I think people have this stereotype of what an evil pc should be. They think mass murderer, molester, and George Bush (joking on that part). While all of those people are evil, they are the extremes.

[Drizzlin]

But umm, Given that many of our server rules ward against evil behavior.  Along with the peer pressure fact that if you want to advance levels by hunting you have to work reasonably well with groups.  I don't see why people are submitting for evil alignments.  The concept of picking an alignment that you are not going to be able to adaquetly RP is a bit illusive to me.

AeonBlues

As a player of NE, my pc is ALWAYS out for himself. Grouping with people he finds that he can manipulate and make do the "dirty" work for him are among his daily goals. I don't see how you find that illusive. If anything, you need to be pointing fingers at the good aligned pcs, NOT the evil ones.

At the same time, you can only blame the good aligned pcs who continue to group with an evil pc once they become aware of their true nature.

[Faldred]

With respect to the submissions themselves, for evil acts that may fall into the "graphic" category, I would suggest following the "Greek tragedy" model.  That is, infer, rather than specify, what happens.  All of the actual graphic acts should take place "off-stage", or in terms of the bio, "between the lines".

As an approver, I'm far more interested on the impact of the event on the character than on the actual event itself.  Details can help some times, but at other times, they are simply inappropriate.

For example, let's say I'm writing a "evil" bio for a character named "Bill".  In the story, Bill tortures a minor adversary ("Charlie") for information about a bigger fish that Bill is interested in.  I can provide everything I need to establish the character without being graphic about the torture scene:[INDENT]"Still refusing to talk, Charlie?  That's a shame... for you, at least.  Personally, I was hoping you'd be this stubborn.  I've been looking forward to this for a long time."

Two hours later, as Bill was washing himself up, a smile spread across his face as he replayed the sounds of Charlie's screams in his ears.  And, he had gotten the location of Charlie's boss.  It had been a very good afternoon.
[/INDENT]