The Economy

[Lalaith Va'lash]

...a good bargain session is much more fun than making zillion of gold that to be honest...

I agree with this as well.  Although I will buy some things on the forums, I am much more apt to do this in game and try to make deals with characters then.

Speaking of the forums (and not to change the subject, hehe)... ever read the Trade and Market hall description?

Use this forum to post Wanted or Availability of various trade items and market items. Do not make the deals on the forums but instead use it as a place for initial contact and then set up a time to meet IN-GAME.

Perhaps with so many crafting guilds and independent crafters out there you need to start considering what sets you aside from the others.  I can look on the forum and see the same list of items on everybody's price list. But the guild with open houses, traveling salesman, and special deals formed through session of RP? Well.. :rolleyes:

[merlin34baseball]

Alright, I have really enjoyed reading all the responses.  

One of the main points seems to be that people are crafting more and trading and bartering for what they need.  It seems ironic somehow that this is exactly why my character refused to join a guild and struck out on her own to form a small trading company with one other partner. And that reason was that she saw the guilds as holding too much power and wealth, and wanted an economy that the little guy could make some coins and have the better things in life. Seems her views have swept the world, who knew!?!

I am happy to hear the drops on central will be tweeked, at first I was like wow look at all this stuff I found that I can sell, never realizing that after a while it would bite me in my behind.

Thanks to everyone who responded, I have a much clearer view of what I need to do, and for the record a fire sale is not one of them!

Thanks!
Merlin

[Chongo]

I dunno Merlin.  I've mostly kept my nose clean of this, and I'll continue to do so on the bigger points... but a few thoughts, or maybe clarifications on some things.
 
 Yeah, iron/ addy weapon drops?  Not good for anyone.  Not good for the server.  But the frequency of drop mention leads to one thing, which is a universal sweeping reduction in % rates.  Now, on one hand this is a good thing in retaining markets, and excitement of the rare.  On the other you still have the low magic block at the level 17+ melee block that is going to take more and more distribution of higher magic drops to remedy.  This is a big part of the higher magic push for V3 that Leanthar began.  So I generally fear drop reductions because of the sweeping nature of the fix.  
 
 But yeah, trash is trash.  And the umpteenth addy dire mace equates to surpluses we shouldn't have.  I just sold all but 4 chests of gear between my two characters.  Well, and 4 chests of higher end traps since they're hard to find and I need to maintain a trapped house to make my roommate angry.  I sold it all to pawn shops.  Mithril weapons and all.  Think it came out to 17k.
 
 How does this equate to what you're saying and why am I mentioning it?  Well, if a level 20 character produces CNR products at the gear level equivalent of 9, then the rate of surplus is off the charts.  There is no way possible to change this.  It's the same thing as I've said above.  If my level 23 holds on to every level 15 item he has then it becomes a problem because of the ease at which it's attained.  So while I understand the contentions to be made here, it's on us to shave our own beards every morning if you want a clean cut face.  Not every 6 months.
 
 Part of the problem is too many people like being scraggly.

[jan]

My advice...sell what people want at a price they want to pay.  Maybe your margins will be less, but let's be honest here...we're not charging you for power, water and such, nor are there taxes.  Guilds and high-priced independents could probably afford a hit to their margins.

The problem with this is , that if you lower the prices you get pm's telling you you damage the economy

Some guilds would love to lower their prices and get more in line with independent crafters.

The problem that rises is that independent crafters don't seem to hold price lists and don't openly advertise with the prices they use.

I could go into detail about items sold for prices that are far too low and items that were sold for prices far too high, but that wont help.

If everyone simply goes with the prices as they were told to me long ago ( basic price with 5-10% up or down ) the service would make the difference i guess.

The drops as we are told will be handled and i look forward to simply go back to open shop and rp selling things soon

[ycleption]

Of course, the other thing is that the economy COULD be stimulated in a number of ways... I just don't think most players would enjoy them. For instance, weapons randomly breaking like crafting instruments do would certainly increase weapon sales. Taking healing potions and bandages out of the temple stores might result in a market there. Making buffing spell target self only could increase potions sales.
Now, I would not really advocate these kind of changes, because crafting and merchanting are supplemental to the game, not the heart of it.
At the same time, I think it should be possible to make a profit (even a small one) by crafting. Once the drops get sorted out maybe things will get better. In the mean time, we have been given a great opportunity to RP whining about the state of the world, and the hard times we live in :-)
*runs off to bump Drexia's trade hall poster*

[lonnarin]

So I take it nobody has any adamantium shields yet?  Come on people... 25,000 true sitting here gathering dust in my pocket and you're all wondering why I'm not buying a 2nd set of +1 rings.  Where's my Addy shield?! lol

Seriously... Bjorn would buy one, Kor would buy one, my buddies Hroth and Gimli probably would too, Farros would buy one with an addy dwarven waraxe to boot.  We're all fretting here about a broken economy where too many people craft and NOBODY wants to make 150,000gp overnight by just keeping standard +2 gear in stock?

I think this proves my point, that the economy is far from broken... it's STUNTED!  Its wagonwheels are stuck in the +1 mud, and whenever I need to find a crafter who has +2 to +3 gear in stock, they're either retired or too lazy to make the order without sending me to the underdark to fetch the resources THEY should be gathering as a crafter!  The problem is that around 50% of the population can make +1 gear, and it seems nobody's willing to step up to the +2 or +3 divisions of gear that are desperately needed.  No amount of "excess gold" in the world can justify the majority of 14-20 lvl fighters in game still using iron shields.

It's like being in a CD store wondering why none of the 8-track players are selling.

[lonnarin]

On MMORPG Economic Theory:

It occurs to me that there are so many +1 crafters out there, because they're all fed up with nothing +2 being in stock, so they all aim to make their own gear and corner that market with hopes of profit.  But then they see the spawns around the +2 and +3 CNR...  and decide that being a little fish in an infinite pond is better than being a big dead fish.  

Couple that with the fact that you're not Allowed to sell more than 1 yew or mithral item per every month or two, and you get the *very reason* why everybody in the economy "has too much gold" and why "everybody crafts too much".  There's "too much gold" because there's no opportunity to spend it.  You see around 6-8 adventurers online night after night, spanning lvls 16-20 who could easily swing a mithral hammer, but the crafter who makes them isn't allowed to sell more than one mithral item per month, same with yew.  So then, they all take up crafting in the dream of one day completing their own order, and the flooded +1 market being the product of their training.  Only 1% of them ever have the patience to eventually tackle the addy, let alone the mithral.

So what we have is the collective dream of higher gear, 10,000,000 +1 items, and a player populace of DIY crafters who "have too much gold" and don't spend enough on other crafters.

How do we counteract "too much money"?  Create a consumer-based economy where that money drains upwards the pyramid.  That way, successful marchant-kings can focus on making massive donations to their temples, bribing government officials for their own ends and digging their claws into the global economy & power structure on par with the feudalist head honchos.  (the military-ndustrial complex, so to speak)  Right now we have a largely DIY-based crafter's economy that has hit a very steep plateau of stagnation witch yeilds a cycle of savings and production instead of just satisfying the consumer level.  Pawn shops are seeing more +1 longswords than the local militias, town guard and state armies, which just isn't right.  

Open up ways to drain the gold from the rich in such ways as set statue prices, setting prices on noble titles and land grants, etc... that's how medeival society worked.  With expensive RP, the problem of savings can be largely countered.  In the end, you wind up with an economy much like ours today... 0.2% of the population owns 99% the wealth, savings look grim, but everybody has a 42" flatscreen TV/+2 blade.

In short, current restrictions on sales and the natural unavailability of premium goods has led to a production surplus of mundane goods.  When one does attain +2 & +3 craftsmanship status, they are either pressured to destroy all of their most valuable items in order to protect the already stagnant economy or accused of powergaming just from their ability to attain said premium CNR.  The very caps levied to stabilize the economy made much of this stagnation & surplus.

As we continue to negatively reinforce high-level production and sales, while at the same time flooding the +1 market with drops, we will only see the trend grow in severity.

That's my theory, in any case.  I am by no means a trained economist, nor are virtual economies as predictable as one would presume.

[merlin34baseball]

Lonnarin,

I think you make very good points.  My character can make +1 rings out the wazzoo.  She can make +2 rings too, but the trip to get the diamonds takes alot of effort.  The only way she'll be able to ever set an emerald is to make alot of diamond jewelry.  Well, its simply not feasable for her to get the diamonds to do this so...  I am stuck making +1 rings and the occasional diamond when I can get one, and if I get any it is only one because the diamonds have to be split up.  Which brings me to emeralds.  People charge 100000 for a mineral emerald or more...  so basically only the incredibly rich or incredibly powerful will ever get them.

So all that being said, that is why no one can sell a +1 ring.  Who wants one?  Every half talented person can make one, so why would you buy one?

This goes right along with your comments on metals for weapons and shields.  Very few people can access these CNRs leading to everyone and their brother being able to make iron weapons, a few being able to make addy, and almost no one making mithril.

I don't know if I even have a point here, but, a trip to get diamonds MIGHT get you four or five between the group.  A trip for alexandrites to make +1 items, sheesh I've walked away with 10, 20, or 30 of them from one trip.  Why? No one wants them.

It just seems like there is a HUGE jump in the effort from a +1 item to a +2, or +3 item in the amount of effort involved in obtaining the CNR.  Take a look at the trade skills board...   see a trend?... Lots of numbers between 13 and 17... Why, well I think thats because thats when +1 items become trivial and then no one can progress without huge amounts of effort, not just from themselves but from their friends to spend hours fighting their way to get a few pieces of high end CNR, which when you fail on the creation wastes a whole lot of everyone time.

*rereads the post*

Gah I'm rambling...

[Interia_Discordius]

Speaking of emerald prices, it's gone from 100k to 200k... If it wasn't for special circumstances, I'd scoff and not even consider buying anymore.

*shrug*

But then again, the Deep did show me how darn tough it is to get those *smiles*

[merlin34baseball]

So... I hope everyone likes their diamond jewelry! O.o

[kuchida]

I've been trying to figure out how to word this right but,

What Talan said about consumables seems true.. The impression I get is that a lot of crafters are making items that adventurers only need to buy once, and there aren't a lot consistently making and selling consumables like good potions, missles, wands, etc.

Shouldn't everyone, particularly those who don't cast spells, have a stack on invisibility potions on them to get out of trouble (or to get to their grave if things go bad ?) Or a lot of cure potions better than the ones you can buy at the temples? Or a hundred other things that can very useful, should be in every adventurers pack and disappear after use...  I don't really see people selling, buying or using all the things like that, the ones who make them that I've met don't sell them but rather just make their own supply..  Or if they are readily available they aren't marketed as much as weapons and armor, etc..

I don't know.. This just seems like an area that isn't as well covered as magic weapons and jewelry, but it could be very lucrative since the products (should) always be in demand..  Just making and selling stacks of certain potions alone should be enough to make someone rich.  Then again I'm not a crafter and I'm constantly too broke to buy anything so I'm not the one to talk..

[darkstorme]

More to the point, the components for potions become harder to get as the potions become more important.  Potions of Speed, Invisibility, and the like, require CNR which has spawns so powerful  by them that you need the potion to get its ingredients... or if you can get them, you don't need the potions.  You could certainly then craft them for the lower-level consumer - but you'd have to price them according to your effort, which would put them out of the everyday consumer's reach.

Much as I hate to admit it, the idea of weapon and armour wear & tear keeps sounding better...

[Hellblazer]

Alright, from someone who still buys and sells on a consistent basis and is not in a guild, here's my perspective.

One, I've noticed a lot of independent crafters, as has been mentioned, especially when it comes to enchanting, which may be why you haven't seen much demand on lower level rings.

Two, Steel can't ever sell enough platinum and silver and also still sells other metals, copper included, so people are at least still buying raw goods, which means that someone somewhere is either keeping or selling stuff they make (I hope there's not a whole lot of just giving items away).

Third, and this pertains to the guild issue: I used to buy from guilds, but I've done so a lot less recently primarily because it's freakin' hard to track down guild members (especially if I don't know who they are), and half the time they don't even have the item I need. I've opted to find independents who are usually more workable to planning an exchange.

So, guilds, my suggestion of what might help bring business back your way is to have set "shop hours" that are advertised weekly, say, on the player calender. Say, maybe three days a week you're open for a two hour period. You could even advetise running lists of what's currently avaialable. This way, you don't have to track down buyers, and buyers don't have to track down guild members.

I used to love looking through Katrien's wares when the Arms was open, because I didn't have to go searching for her, and I could browse. I ended up buying several things from Katrien. Just like with any business, you have to make your product available and most importantly visible.

All you guilds out there that think you can't do this because you don't have a guild hall, blah, blah. Take a hint from Koppig the ale-selling half-giant. You can set up shop in the street with the help of a merchant setup you can buy from the general store.

If I knew there was a set time that I could show up and find an open shop, I'd buy from guilds more. so maybe it's not just that people are all making their own stuff, it may also be that there are lots of people who would buy if they knew who to get it from and when and where to go.

Now, on the matter of item drops. I, personally, thought the addition of the item drops were creative and nifty and really personalized the world. However, I have to agree that they just hit you in mass numbers.

My suggestion is to make all non-gold item drops extremely rare. I don't want to get rid of them, I just want them to be less plentiful. A lot less plentiful. Heck, I'd be fine with the amount of gold being dropped by monsters decreasing some as well. I think this might actually help the crafting economy in that we resort more to bartering than exchanges of stupid amounts of True. (do you know how big and heavy a sack filled with 40,000 gold coins is?). As it is, Steel pays for about half of what he buys with ore. But people can pay for things with boxes of aloe, or lion leathers, or even raw pelts. I am all in favor of raising the value of natural resources and increasing the barter of goods instead of gold.

Most guilds have shops, orcs have one, the angels have one integrated to their guild hall, but even then even with now 14 people in the Angels, which some are pretty spread in the timezones, I did notice a very huge drop in revenues. Most of it comes from when v3 came on and it is now very hard to make trues on mistone, so the new players don't buy as much as they would use to and yes the drops of bronze and iron armors and weapons on central will take some of the sales away. There has always been independent crafting, so I can not attribute the losses in revenues to that. but mostly i would say that it is due to the diminished drops of gold on Mistone and the overabundance of craftable items drop on Dregar.

On the other hand, RP wise we are in the dark ages of Layonara, which means that food will be scarce and so would gold. It is normal in that perspective that people will buy less because they will gain less gold.

[lonnarin]

Ask a certain dwarf about his old acid axe turning into a pile of dust his last trip to the underdark and he'll tell you a thing or two about wear & tear!

[Lilswanwillow]

Well, I see lots of answers from crafters...

I don't craft.  I tried once, I broke it, I quit.

I've been here for a year and a half, so heres my answers on the non-crafting playing person standpoint.

Why am I not buying things?  well, the drops for one thing.. half of what Beil wears right now are drops.

Gold.  or, lack of.  I would rather spend gold on other things than that really nice set of ___ (rings, gloves, cloak, I do need a new robe though)

I don't know who to go to for what I want. I mean, I know about the guilds, but when are they open? who can open the door? sell things?  I know nothing bout it, and I bet most newer players don't either.

And I want food.  PIES! who sells pies?

I used to buy things from the arms, but its never open? and if it is, I don't ever know WHEN it is...  During the sale in Hemp a week or two ago, at 108, I bought things... why? I had some extra gold, and I could browse.  If I had more gold, I would have bought more.

Solutions for this.. I think everyones in agreement, get rid of all the drops on central.  We can't sell it to the pawners, they're all broke too all the time (like right now) We can't sell it to each other, we all have it.

in retrospect, more gold.  I can't afford the prices people have things priced at.  Better yet, drop prices, keep the amount of gold dropped!!!  I don't sell things to make gold, I have to go bash gold out of things.  Therefore, I can only afford oh so much.  What that means to the person trying to sell me things is that I'm a bum off the streets, you want to shoo out of the store but you feel sorry for so you cut me a break.

Drop prices.

And then, lets say, every Thursday night theres a merchant sale.  Anyone that wants to sell stuff-be it the guild, a single person, what have ya, set up shop in Hempstead for the night.  Use the chests from the general store, let us browse... Thats all I want.  I don't know what I want until I see it, see if I have any hope of affording it, touch, smell, lick it a few times *grins*

[Crunch]

I think the idea of coming up with creative ways of sucking more money out of wealthy pockets for RP reasons is a good one.  We have that somewhat now with the various "Aid the ____" (you fill in the blank) type societies.  But the only things that old time, rich characters tend to want are either made from rare components (emerald, mithril, titanium) or unique drop list items.  The characters tend to be set on other things and routine expenses once you are equipped are low.  So the early thrill of crafting is gone by then, the need for money is mostly gone, and you have to make arrangements to meet someone if you want to finalize the sales.  It becomes to easy to be lazy as a crafter and expect someone else will make the sale.

I remember a time when bandages and potions were a recurring expense.  However, the healer's hugs tend to replace bandages over time and you can't buy cure serious potions anymore.  For a 20th level character a cure moderate wounds potion tends to make a barely visible change in the health bar.  Maybe if the stronger healing potions were available but had a restrictive level limit on them and a hefty price tag that would help drain money from the top end of the economy.

[lonnarin]

Tilli Overdale is Bjorn's personal piemaker.  That's the beauty of being a crotchety old rich crafting dwarf, you sit in your office with a shelf full of tastey pies.

I currently rent out space in exchange for frequent stocks of pastry.

[jrizz]

Speaking of emerald prices, it's gone from 100k to 200k... If it wasn't for special circumstances, I'd scoff and not even consider buying anymore.

*shrug*

But then again, the Deep did show me how darn tough it is to get those *smiles*

*laughs* Wren has never even held an emerald in his hand much less had the chance to buy one (even if he had the gold for it). It all the trips he has made only one has ever come up in a drop (he has never been to the underdark). I remember when they used to sell for 300K.

[jrizz]

Speaking of emerald prices, it's gone from 100k to 200k... If it wasn't for special circumstances, I'd scoff and not even consider buying anymore.

*shrug*

But then again, the Deep did show me how darn tough it is to get those *smiles*

*laughs* Wren has never even held an emerald in his hand much less had the chance to buy one (even if he had the gold for it). In all the trips he has made only one has ever come up in a drop (he has never been to the underdark). I remember when they used to sell for 300K.

[Hellblazer]

Well, I see lots of answers from crafters...

I don't craft.  I tried once, I broke it, I quit.

I've been here for a year and a half, so heres my answers on the non-crafting playing person standpoint.

Why am I not buying things?  well, the drops for one thing.. half of what Beil wears right now are drops.

Gold.  or, lack of.  I would rather spend gold on other things than that really nice set of ___ (rings, gloves, cloak, I do need a new robe though)

I don't know who to go to for what I want. I mean, I know about the guilds, but when are they open? who can open the door? sell things?  I know nothing bout it, and I bet most newer players don't either.

And I want food.  PIES! who sells pies?

I used to buy things from the arms, but its never open? and if it is, I don't ever know WHEN it is...  During the sale in Hemp a week or two ago, at 108, I bought things... why? I had some extra gold, and I could browse.  If I had more gold, I would have bought more.

Solutions for this.. I think everyones in agreement, get rid of all the drops on central.  We can't sell it to the pawners, they're all broke too all the time (like right now) We can't sell it to each other, we all have it.

in retrospect, more gold.  I can't afford the prices people have things priced at.  Better yet, drop prices, keep the amount of gold dropped!!!  I don't sell things to make gold, I have to go bash gold out of things.  Therefore, I can only afford oh so much.  What that means to the person trying to sell me things is that I'm a bum off the streets, you want to shoo out of the store but you feel sorry for so you cut me a break.

Drop prices.

And then, lets say, every Thursday night theres a merchant sale.  Anyone that wants to sell stuff-be it the guild, a single person, what have ya, set up shop in Hempstead for the night.  Use the chests from the general store, let us browse... Thats all I want.  I don't know what I want until I see it, see if I have any hope of affording it, touch, smell, lick it a few times *grins*

sorry for the publicity here, but there is almost always someone from the angels on line 24/7 (almost)

Rain, Sonya, Ferrit, Kyle, Dalan, Ben, Ranéwin, Dora, Elohanna, Krystalien, Lance, Omer, Jako, Jilseponie

The only thing we ask is that you try to do this icly. A tell of where can I meet you for something and when, is fine.