HP Level question

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

When you level, if your character has Toughness, does that one HP from Toughness appear in the "HP Gained" line?

I.e. a d8 HD character with CON of 14 and Toughness, would the max possible to show up be 10 or 11?

EDIT: Looks like it's eleven.

[Fatherchaos]

max hp would be 11 - toughness is counted on level up.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Yeah, the thing was that I got a long, long string of tens, with a few that were lower.

Bloody probability.

[Hellblazer]

Takes a few tries but its worth it, especially if you are a low hp class like wizards or sorcerer.

[silverdraco]

How can you know what the max for your hp gain is?

[Hellblazer]

it is the hit dice + the con bonus + the toughness feat

if your hit dice is 6 and you have a con bonus of 2 then its a max of 8, unless you have toughness which automatically adds +1. So with all that you would have a max hp gain of +9 each level up, until you put more points in con and your bonus goes up, which would make the max goes up accordingly. Also upon reaching epic level you have a feat you can chose that is epic toughness that adds an other +20 hp (that can be taken up to a maximum of 200 hp) and you also have the feat great constitution that you can pick up to 10 times that will add 1 nat point to you constitution, in turn raising your bonus by 5 if you pick it the 10 times.

Assuming you pick all of that, and do not put any point manually to constitution, you would have the following, HD6 + 7 (con bonus) +1 (toughness), with the addition of epic toughness if you take it.

[Nehetsrev]

Personally, I feel it's bad gaming to defeat the game mechanics by repeatedly cancelling during level up in order to get the max HP each level.  There's a reason why it's a random roll, and that's to help individualize your character based on their strengths or weaknesses.

If you wanted a character with more HP, then you should have spent your points in Constitution on character creation and your additional bonus point earned every four levels there as well, and taken the Toughness feat, etc.  But to go through the level up process, get to the last step and see you didn't roll the highest number possible for HP gain, and then cancel out to start leveling all over again (which is what is being done here from the sounds of 'discussion' in this thread) and repeat that process til you get the max HP each level is really bad form, and in my opinion outright cheating.  It doesn't at all seem to be in the spirit of the Layonara servers that Leanthar has so painstakingly built over years either, and I think it's in a way a personal affront to him to take advantage of the 'level-up loophole' in such a way, though I can't really speak for him myself I suppose.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I've heard it said before, from team members, even (I believe Talan, but I'm not certain), that the monsters are balanced for characters with maxed HP.

Honestly, if I didn't have the HP I do, I'd have permed a long, long time ago.

The random HP rolled is suitable for PnP, where things are typically much lower-powered and there are more ways to get out of a fight... But in NWN, once a fight starts, you're almost forced to fight to the death.

In NWN2, you automatically receive maxed HP. *Shrugs.*

[Nehetsrev]

Well, I've been here about a year now and never saw any post from Leanthar, or any of the other 'staff' saying it was okay to exploit the level-up for max HP.

If it is, then hey, maybe I should post a request to have all the HP for my characters retroactively maxed because I've been playing with whatever I got all this time, and I'm sure if I'd had maxed HP I might not've died as much or received as many losses of SS's.  Of course, this would mean everybody who hasn't been maxing their HP would also need theirs maxed retroactively too, after all we want it fair and balanced for everyone.

Please note, the second paragraph here is written entirely as sarcasm, and not by any means meant to be taken that I would ask for my characters HP to be retroactively maxed, but rather to make the point again, that there's a reason it's a random roll.  True, the encounters on Layonara -are- much tougher than normal, but the reason for that is to help guarantee more cooperative play and get groups of characters to band together.  To assume that it means it's okay to max your HP through a game mechanic loophole would seem to work toward the defeat of that principal of getting more characters together into groups.

You show me the actual posting from Leanthar, or two or three other team-members that confirms your claim, and I'll happilly start maxing my characters HP from this point onward.

[AeonBlues]

I have never canceled by leveling to get more HP.  I agree, I see it as an exploit.  Also, it comes back to my concept that we as players should not rely on our builds to save our characters, we should rely on our skill as players.

AeonBlues

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

By the same token, is releveling to get minimum HP an exploit?

[Acacea]

I don't care if it's considered an exploit by people who don't like to do it. I don't, personally, but that's only because I find reassigning my skills fifty times to be utterly mind-numbing, and because my character is not a dwarven wall and doesn't need the HP of one. Generally when she starts getting attacked, she's already lost, as she has the AC of a newborn kitten.

There have been not one but several statements by one-time team members or balancers in the past saying yes, it doesn't matter and is pretty much an assumed practice. These statements clash with other team members or balancers who frown and shift around a bit and say it's 'frowned on' or something, but again, it's not prevented nor addressed anywhere that anyone should not. Most of the time it's eerily silent when the subject comes up, presumably because no one likes it, but do not prevent it either. One of those things you are free to do but frowned at for taking advantage of, hehe.

I've seen places where the HP gain was hidden on level-up, or where you simply cannot get a new number everytime you try again, or where it is auto-maxed. For instance, in the 3.5 setup on the vault, HP gain is hidden and you can't bank your skill points past a certain number.

The problem is not that there is a terrible loophole - it's not the dreadful exploit it has been made out to be, as a LOT of people do it and not because of poor ethics - but because there is no particular clear stance on it, again likely because no one wants to really encourage it, but do assume most people will take advantage of it. So many people use it, and fight the creatures likely made taking it into account, and several others who think of it as exploiting would never think to do it and truck on with their low HP rolls and die...frequently.

I would simply advising do whatever will make you enjoy your time more. If your character is meant to be totally frail, then why reroll? Why not make a dwarf instead? But rangers, rogues, barbarians out there... you get stomped on, everybody knows it. I wager a large number of them reroll and still get eaten and spit out for a long while. It doesn't really offend me as a player that it takes a rerolled barbarian an extra 20 HP or something to die.

Whatever your opinion on it is, I don't think we need to suggest that those who take advantage of it are cheaters and exploiters, because many of them would not if they hadn't heard it was okay.

To quote Ghost from like two years ago, "So if you feel it's wrong to do, don't do it. If you want to, it isn't going to make the world too easy for you. If you don't do it, it's not going to be too hard. We tried to get it right down the middle."

[Nehetsrev]

Thanks Acacea for your wisdom.  And I apologize Stephen for perhaps going a little too gung-ho with my own opinion.  Ugh, once again we see the headaches caused by taking this, a game, too seriously.  Let's just get back to playing and having fun.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

*Nods to Nehetsrev, smiling, and gets back to the game.*

[Hellblazer]

*Looks up at Nehetsrev and Stephen*

Awwww:)

 But rangers, rogues, barbarians out there... you get stomped on, everybody knows it. I wager a large number of them reroll and still get eaten and spit out for a long while.

Oh so true.O.o

[Eight-Bit]

Personally, I feel it's bad gaming to defeat the game mechanics by repeatedly cancelling during level up in order to get the max HP each level.  There's a reason why it's a random roll, and that's to help individualize your character based on their strengths or weaknesses.

If you wanted a character with more HP, then you should have spent your points in Constitution on character creation and your additional bonus point earned every four levels there as well, and taken the Toughness feat, etc.  But to go through the level up process, get to the last step and see you didn't roll the highest number possible for HP gain, and then cancel out to start leveling all over again (which is what is being done here from the sounds of 'discussion' in this thread) and repeat that process til you get the max HP each level is really bad form, and in my opinion outright cheating.  It doesn't at all seem to be in the spirit of the Layonara servers that Leanthar has so painstakingly built over years either, and I think it's in a way a personal affront to him to take advantage of the 'level-up loophole' in such a way, though I can't really speak for him myself I suppose.

I would always get my max Hp. It is silly not to when you factor in death tokens and the constant threat of a painful demise. When I hear spirit of the server, I really see "I am against something, and I will attach this phrase to add spin to my statements."

I think it is not in the spirit of the server to use the phrase 'spirit of the server' for it is infact a souless machine pumping electrons into our brains.

I have never canceled by leveling to get more HP.  I agree, I see it as an exploit.  Also, it comes back to my concept that we as players should not rely on our builds to save our characters, we should rely on our skill as players.

AeonBlues

Being able to build a character that can survive is a skill as a player. Roleplaying because your character is dirt smeared on paper is a skill as a player. Being able to nail 200+ damage criticals with your Half-Orc Scythe-Master is a skill as a player. There really isn't one way to play this game. The attitude that there is, and that your method is better than his, is something that leads to a divided community where people become passive-aggressive.

Something terribly outside of the spirit of the server if you ask me.

[lonnarin]

It doesn't at all seem to be in the spirit of the Layonara servers that Leanthar has so painstakingly built over years either, and I think it's in a way a personal affront to him to take advantage of the 'level-up loophole' in such a way, though I can't really speak for him myself I suppose.

When asked before on this topic, he replied that it wasn't worth policing since the staff already assumes people are already doing this, and increased the monster hp accordingly.

Besides, there isat least ONE person who uses this for the exact opposite... minimizing hp to RP reflect his withered, sickened form.  

[Weeblie]

When asked before on this topic, he replied that it wasn't worth policing since the staff already assumes people are already doing this, and increased the monster hp accordingly.

Besides, there isat least ONE person who uses this for the exact opposite... minimizing hp to RP reflect his withered, sickened form.  

Which is much, much cooler.

[Nehetsrev]

For those who obviously didn't continue to read the thread to it's completion before posting, I'll quote my own last post with an emphasis on it's final statement:

Thanks Acacea for your wisdom.  And I apologize Stephen for perhaps going a little too gung-ho with my own opinion.  Ugh, once again we see the headaches caused by taking this, a game, too seriously.  Let's just get back to playing and having fun.

To continue to try to hash things up after apologies have been made and a resolution to get past a situation has been made is getting a bit personal, and in my opinion beneath the level of maturity I'd expect of folks here.

Now please, with respect, let's just get back to playing and having fun.  Thank you.

[Fatherchaos]

Nehetsrev, you're completely right. I think everyone can now agree that a character gets the toughness bonus and con bonus on level up, and it will be shown in the summary screen.

" I.e. a d8 HD character with CON of 14 and Toughness, would the max possible to show up be 10 or 11?" would get 11 hp total.

(just being silly here folks, in the oft chance someone was following this thread for the original topic *big toothy grin*)