Put the Soul Mother to Rest? Maybe? Perhaps?

[Gulnyr]

I would be interested to know how many of us here now, the 'old timers' who may have characters in a near-death or already-dead state, the ones who care about Layonara enough to keep checking the forums and making requests and suggestions, who keep the world alive by continuing to play and run quests as if we had ten years to go...  I would be interested to know how many of us are so caught up in our own selfishness that we would completely and utterly avoid the new Layonara should we lose our precious NWN characters before the very end.  Somehow, I don't think it would be very many.

Check the people on the forums and the server status throughout the day.  There's your stickies.  There are new players dropping in, sure, but it's a trickle.  Tossing out an established and important part of the world isn't going to do anything to change the opinions of the new players.  A lot of them will barely have any acquaintance with the Soul Mother before all is done.  The whole Soul Strand thing only affects us 'old timers,' really, and then only the ones who have a favorite character with one foot in the grave.  If any of the established players should decide to leave forever because major facets of the world would not be changed to accommodate them, I can't say I would feel too bad about that.  It would be unfortunate, but it might be for the greater good.

[Tobias]

Personally, all I care about is getting a cleric out there to heal me... and the only cleric has 14 DT's and is increasingly wimpy about doing anything... so my view is clearly biased.  

With all respect.. I have 13

I have been here with Layo longer then most and I guess you could consider me an "old timer"  here.  I have experienced losing one character to perma death and another character twice now to another. How does this really effect me with the Soul Mother staying or going?  I am on the side that she stays and for the longest time she has been here for IC reasons and not just for OOC reasons. I have aacepted her being here and if as player I didn't like the concept I would of left long ago and not been playing here for four or five years now.

 Will I not be a happy person if my character dies? Of course not but I be happy that I know that I have made my mark in this world with him and met alot for great people and groups and would be content with his story. And I still will be here and beyond. Just hoping it won't be too much to pay to play.

Would I be opposed to raising the roof a little and giving another feat for SMD defense at level 30?  I would love it! Would give me a reason to go for level 30 and try to become the Diamond of Beryl.

But until then. I will pick my battles and adventures knowing that I am still not done with Quill and knowing there is more "good" that he could do and alot more promises to be kept.

just my two worthless cents. :p

[jrizz]

I would be interested to know how many of us here now, the 'old timers' who may have characters in a near-death or already-dead state, the ones who care about Layonara enough to keep checking the forums and making requests and suggestions, who keep the world alive by continuing to play and run quests as if we had ten years to go...  I would be interested to know how many of us are so caught up in our own selfishness that we would completely and utterly avoid the new Layonara should we lose our precious NWN characters before the very end.  Somehow, I don't think it would be very many.

Check the people on the forums and the server status throughout the day.  There's your stickies.  There are new players dropping in, sure, but it's a trickle.  Tossing out an established and important part of the world isn't going to do anything to change the opinions of the new players.  A lot of them will barely have any acquaintance with the Soul Mother before all is done.  The whole Soul Strand thing only affects us 'old timers,' really, and then only the ones who have a favorite character with one foot in the grave.  If any of the established players should decide to leave forever because major facets of the world would not be changed to accommodate them, I can't say I would feel too bad about that.  It would be unfortunate, but it might be for the greater good.

I of course dont disagree with you. But the 10 or 20 of us that you are talking about do not a customer base make. We tend to think in terms of emotion and not business when it come to this world that we feel so close too.

[LordCove]

Well......ten bob here....( thats about a dollar )

I'd rather not lose the Soul mother. Losing XP aint "that" much of an issue. But having the possibility of losing your character due to being stupid and foolhardy....ie....charging the Deep....well....that keeps you a little sharp.

There aint nothing like a healthy fear of Perming to keep your character IC when it comes to going crazy and hard places.

I've opted out of a few excursions to such places for fear of this...which is IC for my guy anyway. But to be honest....if I knew all I would loose is XP....Pfft! I'd go the Deep twice a day.

*shrugs* Just a thought. And Im on my 9th DT...so er....I aint biased.

[Filatus]

I think people should start looking at the Soulmother as part of the Layonara lore, not as a gamemechanic.

You can't just abolish her, so any suggestions in that direction are flawed to begin with, because they fail to take into account how integrated the soulmother is in the history of Layonara.

The scaled DC with rise in level. Now that is something that is worth discussing. Because for example, it disadvantages weak (rp-)builds that do gain a high level.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I second Tobias' motion. I've been here a while, lost a very beloved character to perma-death, and I still play, will play, promote, and help build the world day to day.

Oddly, the chance for perma-death is one of the things that kept me here. The edge of realism and grit such risk provides is thrilling. Those of you who knew Cole knew that he never stopped or slowed down, and that he was  seven SS losses and above for most of his life.

Speaking purely IC, adventurers who don't appreciate everyday that they can die and come back are beyond stuck-up. 99% of the population dies once. There even has to be some NPC adventurers who aren't called to be bound to the stones. You're character is going to die. If you have multiple chances, and someone else doesn't, don't waste that gift. Take the risks. Let your character live their live to the fullest extent.

Better to die living than live like you're already dead. (I'm with you, Gulnyr)

[twidget658]

...due to being stupid and foolhardy....ie....charging the Deep....well....that keeps you a little sharp.

 
 50% of my loss SS was due to game mechanics! How does that affect my character? Since there is no GM or WL that witnessed it, I can't get those back. I have chose my battles, I have turned down risky runs, just like everyone else...I don't have a problem with those.
 
 Going through a transition and getting jumped (GAME MECHANIC), invis bug/GSanc bug (GAME MECHANIC),  release of a new version with bugs (GAME MECHANIC), lag (GAME MECHANIC), dying while crashing (GAME MECHANICS)...so to say you can't think of it in the 'game mechanic' way is asinine.
 
 No disputes show that people are fine with it? No. The guidelines are so strict that most people don't even bother.
 
 GM block empty *stamped denied* denied from the get go.
 
 Why even bother anymore? It has become so OOC that it hardly makes IC sense. The story can't be told for whatever reason...if it was told, maybe people would come back to understanding the IC reason she is around.
 
 For the 'old timers', which I have been here for years myself and have donated almost that whole time every month since being a member, have never lost a character to the Soul Mother. I have came close. So I am thinking that I have made some go decisions (nope, just lucky on the dice roll). The only way that you can say that you have made good decisions is if you have died less then 10 times. Any number over that, your character could have perm'd.
 
 To say that people that have left is for the greater good of the server is just plain out back stabbing! They were an integral part of growing this server. To hold it against them for leaving is out right wrong.
 
 People can support the Soul Mother and that is fine. But don't slam on people for leaving because they lost something or support it with claims of you being more superior and are better because you stayed and made it through the suffering.

[LynnJuniper]

Twidgit I sincerely hope this little comment doesn't make you angry as its not my intention:

It sounds to me like you have a problem with the way soul strand reimbursements are handled rather than with the system itself. This is understood and in my opinion justified by the situations you or your friends have faced, however I'm not sure this is the best thread to take this up in. I'd suggest starting a new one, petitioning to the DMs with a PM etc. I'm sure you'll find those who agree with you.

That said I actually agree with a lot of your points.

[twidget658]

It sounds to me like you have a problem with the way soul strand reimbursements are handled rather than with the system itself.

 
 My points were made to other comments in this thread. Reimbursements are just ONE issue with the WHOLE system.
 
 When someone says that it is all IC and half of the SS' are lost due to OOC events, it is hard to follow his/her logic, especially with the 'choose your battle' mentality. That only affects a portion of the lost SS'.
 
 Like I said before, I have not lost a character to the Soul Mother and my main one still has five to go. So this affects me little...right now. But when they come back-to-back-to-back, it is hard to support a system that seems unfair. Have you ever tried to perm a character? I know someone that has and died over 600 times. This character had an excellent IC/RP reason for doing it. But what about the people who perm with under 50 deaths?
 
 Therefore, these points aren't necessarily for me, but for the others who do not post.

[Gulnyr]

To say that people that have left is for the greater good of the server is just plain out back stabbing! They were an integral part of growing this server. To hold it against them for leaving is out right wrong.

This didn't happen.  I said that anyone who leaves solely because an integral, important part of the world is not changed to suit their individual taste is not really going to be a loss.  Those would be people too caught up in their own selfish desires to understand that the world is not theirs to shape willy-nilly for their own personal pleasure and satisfaction.  That's not the sort of people to retain to foster and grow this particular community.  

This is actually something that concerns me about a pay-to-play system, since people who pay for things often feel like they should have things their way, but that's a concern for another day.
 

People can support the Soul Mother and that is fine. But don't slam on people for leaving because they lost something or support it with claims of you being more superior and are better because you stayed and made it through the suffering.

No one has said that anyone who left after a loss was wrong, or that anyone still here is better than anyone else.  If anything I said sounds like that, it was accidental.  Even what I just said doesn't mean I think I'm necessarily better than people with selfish desires, because to one extent or another, we're all selfish.  There's a difference between getting what you want and getting what you want within the scope and confines of the world, though.  The second one is "better."

[Dorganath]

It's a little off-topic, but if anyone has a workable, meaningful suggestion as to how to handle disputes for Soul Strands that a) does not require the GM/WL (i.e. highly trusted) witness and b) is not open to rampant abuse as it was prior to the need for witnesses, such that Soul Strand loss because almost as meaningless as not having a Soul Mother at all, then I am more than willing to listen to the suggestion.

Way long ago, a well-justified PM to Leanthar was all it took for a Soul Strand to be refunded. At some point, Rhizome took it upon himself to hear not only Soul Strand requests but any sort of loss/grievance issue, and the Grievance/Request/Reimbursement process was born. Criteria were established...this was basically the "Three Yeps" criteria, meaning three people had to post in support of the claim.  Fair, yes, but it was sadly abused...so much so that every Soul Strand that nearly every Soul Strand that was lost was refuted and supported, whether legitimate or not. I lost count of how many times someone was denied after lots of questions and answers and investigations, only to respond with "Oh well, I didn't think I'd get it back, but I had to try, right? " Sadly, the work it takes to tell the difference is non-trivial. At some point in there, I informally took over the process, handling both the processing end as well as the investigation and often refunding portions of the process.  

The amount of time required to handle things was crushing, and far too often, the deciding factor of whether or not the request (be it Soul Strands or something else) boiled down to whether or not I personally believed the account to be true, based on reports and on what our logs showed, whether the data I could gather was ambiguous or in conflict with the verbal account, etc.  While perhaps a lot more requests came out in favor of the requester, the fact that my personal judgment had become an integral part of the process was really not all that equitable.

And yeah, the whole perception that some people were favored over others was very common in that system.  I got many questions why X was approved but Y was not. All had justifiable reasons, but it didn't soothe the hurt feelings of those who were denied, and there was no way everyone could be happy.

So after a lot of thought (and yes, I do mean a lot) and conversations with Leanthar, I came up with a new set of guidelines which were not as dependent upon personal belief and relied heavily on verifyable accounts (i.e. GM/WL witnesses) and as much proof as the requester could provide.  I fully realize that this system is not perfect, but it is the best I could come up with.

Sadly, we now have a perception of another kind of favoritism.  Those favored enough to adventure with a GM or WL player will usually get approved while everyone else is out of luck. Once again, not everyone can be happy.

So in all seriousness, I ask you all....if you have a better suggestion on how to handle the requests in a meaningful way that maintains the integrity of the whole system, that is fair and equitable, that is not subject to abuse and which is reasonably efficient to manage, then we will surely consider it. If it works out, it can only make this place better in the long run.  I'm very serious about this.  Make a suggestion.

For the record, losses due to verifiable bugs, especially after new version releases and getting jumped at transitions due to monsters left over from someone else (which is also verifiable) are absolutely refundable.

[LynnJuniper]

"Sadly, we now have a perception of another kind of favoritism. Those favored enough to adventure with a GM or WL player will usually get approved while everyone else is out of luck. Once again, not everyone can be happy."

What about more of these trusted people? Not neccesarily World leaders not neccesarily (ill never spell that right) GMs: People that are both trusted AND prone to traveling with different sets of people; People who are of a range of different levels.

You have Character Approver applications. Project Team applications, GM applications, Writing Team applications.

What about a Dispute team? Im sure that in order to make something more fair and more balanced people would, indeed volenteer for this.

Sure there may be screams of favoritism and "Well this person is trusted and this person isnt" but at the VERY least , you may have MORE people to do the work, both making it a shorter affair AND leading to a more spread out group of people able to oversee events with different groups that way something like this is at the very least less likely to happen.

Then again Dorg I bring this to you because if anyone can say "This wont work" Fairly and nicely its you =P

[Chongo]

I think people should start looking at the Soulmother as part of the Layonara lore, not as a gamemechanic.
 
 The scaled DC with rise in level. Now that is something that is worth discussing. Because for example, it disadvantages weak (rp-)builds that do gain a high level.

 
 The problem with your first point is the concession that follows.  Anyone really set on arguing this is lost in the sauce in my not so humble opinion.
 
 Our mechanic is breeding the problem.  Stretch this out over a few elven generations... who do you think the shaping survivors would be?  And bearing in mind the immediate retort... do you really think a subjective GM monitoring system should be responsible for buffering a broken mechanic?
 
 And Daeron, you know I'm not picking on you... just extracting yours because I know you won't be offended.

[Gulnyr]

I think people should start looking at the Soulmother as part of the Layonara lore, not as a gamemechanic.

The problem with your first point is the concession that follows.  Anyone really set on arguing this is lost in the sauce in my not so humble opinion.  Our mechanic is breeding the problem.

Forgive me, but I think I have misunderstood again.  If the mechanic is the problem, and the problem can be reduced or removed by changing the mechanic, how does that equate to the notion of seeing the Soul Mother as an integral part of the world rather than an OOC mechanic being flawed?

Filatus's point seems to be "don't lobby to remove the Soul Mother and her effects; lobby to change how the rolls work," which seems perfectly reasonable.

[Filatus]

I do not consider the soulmother script a broken mechanism. The problem is created by lag, crashing etc.

Which, are for the most part the result of hardware/software on the player's side. There are people who can play this game without a single crash. And then there are people who crash a lot and yes, they run a bigger risk. Not always will there be a WL or GM present to give testimony of the circumstances.

And if people in the past hadn't abused the dispute system....

But I disagree with your assumption that the mechanic is inherently broken. The mechanic doesn't cause the lost soulstrands, crashes and lag do. And yes, I think this subjective gm monitoring system is better than none at all, because it will allow for buffering of soulstrands or xp lost due to ooc happenings. And these happenings are more than often caused by something on the player's side and not on the servers themselves.

Then there is your other point of playerskills reflecting in character survivability. Well, luckily we have quests for those people. And it will always be a pity not everyone can attend these. But fair is fair, Layo allows characters to level by other means than combat.

EDIT: And yes, as Gulnyr posted more clearly than I could, I'm not stating that the system is 'broken'. I'm saying that, as with the lootsystem or spawns, you can always consider whether there are better approaches.

[Chongo]

Yep - misunderstood.
 
 Filatus's quote that it might be to the disadvantage of "weaker (rp-) builds" was what I am continually referring to. Maybe a poor coupling of phrases... I dunno. I don't mean to cause trouble here.
 
 I have two points I'm trying to offer here.
 
 1) We have a unique situation currently that demands flexibility.
 2) We have the opportunity to start thinking about the future generations.
 
 You can talk all day about the IC aspects of the soul mother and how integral she is to the server but the fact remains that the mechanic of DT's and perm'ing is to the detriment of weaker 'builds'. And hey, no issues here. I know that the chances are in favor of me hitting 40 with any character I make. But is that who you want as your epics? Your individuals of great power in the lands? While the split stat rangers or true to raging barbarians die off? Granted, I don't have much of a case. We don't have many people dying off, a couple dozen we never hear about since they never hit making their mark perhaps. But we certainly have a few who have faded away, and a few that cringe at their certain death.
 
 Your contention that DT's happen mostly due to computer issues I think is mostly wrong. Some builds die. Others don't. There's no great mystery in this. I don't need to further myself in self depracation or that of some of the other commentators here on survivalist builds. I fear that if you were to let NWN Layo stretch on for another 5 years... we'd see some issues in this. And guys, it's not a grave issue. I just think that if you are going to take the stance that this server strives for an outstanding player mindset, then we should stop dangling cookies in front of the faces of survivalists.
 
 You know... I mostly bite my tongue on this. I think that it's a great thing that the atmosphere here permits the epic nature of facing death. There is no doubt that this is a good thing for atmosphere. But I also think we're in a unique scenario currently with 'facing death'... of the server, as well as in the unique scenario of looking forward at another umpteen years of Layonara, and the demands of good thought on what's been learned.
 
 And regarding my comment on GM buffering Daeron, you misunderstood. By buffer I mean that I don't think it should be up to the subjective and individual decisions of a staff to decide who will attrite. Not who gets tokens back etc... rather... the wary eye towards those biting at the obvious cookie floating in front of their face. Why is there a dangling cookie? That mechanic that begs the question for every player 'how will I avoid losing my character?'. There is no denying that people try to get 'better' at this game. If I could grasp everything that Mr. Scott has in his head of what's truly 'better'... it's probably not the survival mechanics he wants eyes towards. That's the question for the future Layonara. And right now... well right now it's just about making the most of our character's time left... and you can't blame anyone for wanting things to continue so they can feebly grasp onto their strained motivation to bridge the gap between what is, and what is waiting on an uncertain horizon.

[Gulnyr]

Thanks for the clarification.

I appreciate what you're saying about the future.  Things have been learned, and there can be major changes and/or minor adjustments to make the new Layonara's death system better.  This thread even got me doing a little mental exercise that resulted in a rough foundation for a system that would allow both Strand-getting permadeath candidates and Strandless immortal characters to exist in the same world and go on the same quests side-by-side.  But none of that talk matters.  We were asked to focus on the here and now of Layonara:

Until such time as we announce how things will be in the future, let us please confine this discussion to the NWN incarnation of Layonara.

We all know that there is only so much time left here, but this thread is about doing something now, not later.  At least, that's what it used to be about.  Unfortunately, the topic is tougher than it first seems.  It isn't easy to come up with a system that's fair, and takes all of our subjective notions of character value into account, and account for various imbalances (real or imagined) between classes, plus any other necessities, and still have it run automatically in NWN.  On top of that, some people have already decided the NWN version of Layonara is finished, which is not the best atmosphere for good ideas and timely implementation.

Maybe it's not as complicated as it seems to me.  Everyone seems to have a different notion of what it should be and should do, without being able to distill it down into a concise definition that can be turned into a new system, though, so it sounds pretty complicated.  I don't have any good suggestions.  I mean, I can see how some basis on Constitution would be a good thing, but that shouldn't be all there is; that would just be a modifier.  Maybe a higher Constitution would mean more Soul Strands, or maybe it would only modify the roll to make it more difficult to lose them.  *shrug*  And I can imagine that class might have something to do with it, sort of like hit dice, but it's not easy to explain why, say, a Fighter or Ranger should have more Soul Strands or less chance of losing them than a Wizard or Bard.  And how would multiclassing be handled?  And how would the system differentiate between an archer and a front-liner?  Either could be a Fighter or a Ranger, but an archer in leather armor is much, much safer than a front-liner in leather armor.  And more importantly, should the system differentiate?  The equipment choice and role in combat is up to the player, after all, and the system isn't at fault if the player makes an unwise choice.  It's not the system's fault that I wouldn't keep Gulnyr's leather-clad carcass out of the fray, right?

That goes right back to disadvantaging characters who are built with RP-reasoning rather than thrown together for power and perfection...  I don't know.  In a way, I can see how that could lead to the server being top-heavy with the power-builds (and the lucky).  At the same time, it's a case of keeping up with the Joneses.  Who cares what someone else's character build is?  Do you like your character?  Are you playing the character you want to play?  I kind of wiggle between these.  I don't like the idea that building for performance rather than role-play leads to improved survival, but that's just one of the side effects of NWN, so I'm trying to make the best of it and enjoy the RP.

I could go on all day, probably, and continue to say nothing important.  I guess the essence of this post is: What about now?  Is there a way to modify the system without tearing up the world's background and lore so that long-standing players with nearly-dead characters have a better chance (not a guarantee) to make it to the end?  It's not about favorites, but about making an effort to keep the players we have active in the world without ruining the flavor of the world to do it.

[jrizz]

There was a long thread on ideas for new SS systems.

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/117642-suggestion-augmented-soul-strand-loss-return.html

including my own ideas that I will re-post here:


1. Soul strength grows with the PC.
At 4th level you get 4 SS then you earn 1 every 2 levels. That will be a total of 12 by 20th level. Keep SMD at 21st level and have the earning go to one every three levels after 21. This method keeps the SS loss system as is and still keeps your PC afraid of death. But there will no longer be the hopelessness of "only one SS left". There will always be the hope that you can make it to the next time you can earn one. Also this method shows that the PC grows in soul strength as she gains in experience instead of getting weaker in soul. There are other reasons why this is a good way to go but I dont need to spell them all out.

2. Death means loss of play time.
In this method when you die and respawn you go right to the eye of the storm and you cannot enter the world again for 24 hours (could make it 30 so that it would really mean missing a lot) RT. With that there is no chance of SS loss. If you chose to wait for a RD or R spell then you risk the loss of a SS (resurrect would have the current % chance and RD would have some modifier so that the risk was higher). This way you would have to let your party know before setting out if you wish to be "helped" by a cleric if you die.

Both of these keep the Soul Mother in play just in a way that puts some hope or control into the players hands.

The indication in that thread was that there would be no change in the short term. I think that is why this thread is more about how to move forward and why we need to think outside the box.

[LynnJuniper]

I like the first idea Jrizz....

Here's one: Rolls Vs Soul mother on respawn rather than death. It dissuades people from soloing since they won't have a cleric to raise them, however if may bring about more "Clerics are the most overpowered!!!1111 we cant go without them!"

Or it may just up the market for Raise dead scrolls

[DMOE]

I vote for anything that up's the market for Raise Dead Scrolls *looks shifty*