Alignments and Morals

[jrizz]

hmm kidnapping now that give me an idea for my evil PC *grins*

[Gulnyr]

Further, it makes the assumption that those who see the world in a certain way try to promote that side of things, which is just silly.

This may be more my opinion than the actual intention of the system, but choosing an alignment other than Neutral does mean that a character would most likely promote that view in some way.  Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil are chosen because the character is intended to be fully committed to those concepts to a significant degree.  

The Player's Handbook describes True Neutral as a lack of conviction (in most cases).  It also says a True Neutral character sees Good as better than Evil, since Good neighbors and rulers would be preferable to Evil ones, but that the TN character himself isn't personally committed to upholding Good in any abstract or universal way.  That, to me, implies that the non-Neutral alignments generally include a personal commitment to promote those ideas and ideals in some way to some extent.  This is why most NPCs (the average townfolk and such) are TN; they lack the conviction to be Lawful or Chaotic, Good or Evil.

Promotion of an idea doesn't have to mean wearing a gorilla suit and carrying a flashy sign while standing on the street corner yelling at the top of your lungs.  It can be as simple as a Lawful character trying to convince the party that breaking into a house to gain information is the wrong way to go about things, or a Chaotic character arguing the opposite.  That is promoting the alignment.

[ycleption]

Gulnyr:

I was referring mostly to this statement, the sentiment of which is echoed in the specific alignment sections:

"Lawful characters view the world as essentially ordered, or at least a place where order must be established and maintained. Chaotic characters see no such order, and usually disdain its establishment unless necessary"

To my mind, the most ardent sides are the ones who see themselves as rebels: The archetypes of these would be the crusading paladin who sees the disarray around, and struggles to impose order, and the revolutionary rogue type, who sees only the order around, and tries to break it down.

I just don't think that there is necessarily a correlation between the way someone see the world and the way they try to impact it.

[Gulnyr]

I just don't think that there is necessarily a correlation between the way someone see the world and the way they try to impact it.

If a character is Lawful, and is therefore personally committed to promoting the ideals of the Lawful alignment, which can be defined as believing that the world is or should be ordered and that order should be protected and preserved, how could his view not affect how he interacts with and impacts the world?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not sure I'm following what you are saying.

[ycleption]

the world is or should be ordered

This is where my hangup is, saying that the world IS ordered and saying that the world SHOULD BE ordered, are to my mind, worlds apart.

Likewise, I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying, I think we're just talking past eachother a bit, sorry if I haven't been as clear as I could be.

[lonnarin]

Technically, wouldn't true neutral be the most peaceful alignment of all?  While the good folks talk up a storm about nonviolence, they certainly don't shy away from the smiting side of things when they're faced with evil.  Neutrals usually don't get involved unless somebody takes the initiative to stir them to action.

Therefore, conflict in itself is not necessarily evil, since evil is merely an idealogical construct in opposition to good and conflict is simply what happens when the two actively oppose eachother like opposite ends of a magnet.  But... if conflict itself is often considered to be a chaotic state of fluctuation, then it stands to reason that law is peace... unless the laws legalize war, and most wars are historically waged by legal establishments.  Therefore law is stagnation and chaos is both growth and entropy.  As growth, entropy and stagnation are all but simply natural states in the same cycle, then that would mean that law is chaos and evil is good on a long enough scale...

Man, I love micro-macrocosmic doublespeak.

(uses the philosophical feat: Eschew Operational Definitions)

[Gulnyr]

This is where my hangup is, saying that the world IS ordered and saying that the world SHOULD BE ordered, are to my mind, worlds apart.

I agree that they are not the same thing.  I don't think they are mutually exclusive or irreconcilable, though, if that's where you're leading.  

But you've lost me beyond that, because I'm not sure how the difference between "is" and "should be" is related to this:

I just don't think that there is necessarily a correlation between the way someone see the world and the way they try to impact it.

[darkstorme]

So all PC evil characters can be played by this? Funny thing is that you see npc's in all aspects but not by players. I merely see it as an excuse and people being scared about confrontation and intensive RP, but that is just me.

It all comes down to the player...[who] will of course take all the advantages instead of seeing the great opportunities there can be in having disadvantages as well and the interesting RP you can have.

Stephen covered some of my response to this, but I've one more concise point to make as a rebuttal to this statement.  Evil (at least the evil that survives) isn't dumb.  I'm sure making a Neutral Evil thug of a half-orc might be fun, but sooner or later some Toranites or Rofireinites will come around, round him up, and toss him in jail or execute him.  Worse still, a Voraxite might simply administer the latter punishment personally.  Furthermore, if an evil character is brought up among those like him (dark elves, for example), he will, by necessity, have to be clever, in order to avoid the machinations of those bent on his position - or anything to which he might bar the way.

So, clearly, a truly successful evil character will likely have to play-act, 'cause they darn well don't want to be caught - they look out for their own skin.  (The one exception might be fanatics of an evil deity, but they would likely be a short-lived character.)

I just don't think that there is necessarily a correlation between the way someone see the world and the way they try to impact it.

I realize this has been chosen before as a quotation, but I have my own take on it.  As Gulnyr expressed above, a large part of what makes up alignment is not the character's view, but their actions, and their personality, when viewed objectively.  Someone seeking to impose order on a lawless frontier town is more likely to view themselves as a peacemaker, or a guardian; someone seeking to break an oppressive government regime is more likely to view themselves as a liberator.  Neither would think of themselves as a rebel, since that is invariably what the established order views them as.  It is actions and personality, more than thought processes, that illustrate alignment.

Technically, wouldn't true neutral be the most peaceful alignment of all?

Perhaps in real life - but in Dungeons and Dragons we have vigorous Neutrals - those who believe strongly in the cause of Neutrality, balance in all things.  Chaos sewn here, order imposed there, and no one force allowed to predominate.  And usually, the way to prevent such forces from predominating is to oppose them.  While there might be some peaceful, apathetic Neutrals, and some pacifist, "Can't we all just get along?" Neutrals, we also have the Neutrals that aim to be the middle pitted against all sides.  So ascribing peacefulness to True Neutrals is as false as declaring that all Good-aligned people are warlike.

(And now, just 'cause it's been running through my head:

"Your Neutralness!  It's a Beige Alert!"
"If I don't survive, tell my wife, "Hello.""

)

[Varka]

I've one more concise point to make as a rebuttal to this statement. Evil (at least the evil that survives) isn't dumb.  

True. By saying aspects I meant them all.

Further my comment about charisma pointed actually indirectly towards this point - being dumb.

I hope that players who sign up for a clever evil person also have a certain level in the stat intelligence. A dwarf, orc, drow, figther, rouge, mage or what ever.
Which again points towards advantages and disadvantages.

[jrizz]

Stephen covered some of my response to this, but I've one more concise point to make as a rebuttal to this statement.  Evil (at least the evil that survives) isn't dumb.

I am not saying that evil PCs have to wear their evil on their chests. All I am saying is where are the ACTIONS that define them as evil. With good PCs we see the actions that define then.

[hawklen]

*sits back in his chair smiling, watching all the i nteresting arguments going on*

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Yes, but with Evil PCs, if anyone that they don't want seeing their evil, does, then that's a Bad Thing for them.

Bob wants to burn down John's house. So he gets himself invited to go watch The Game at John's house... And invites Steve. When Steve leaves the room, Bob makes an excuse as well, and sets fire to the place. He comes back, though... Before Steve. When the house really starts to burn, Bob blames it on Steve, acting horrified at the terrible thing Steve's done! John (assuming he believes it) still thinks Bob's a good guy, and Steve is evil. But Bob's still the evil one.

Or an alternate example.

Frank is a serial killer. He just loves cutting people up, oh yeah. But during the day, he works for a forensics lab, solving crimes and bringing in "the bad guys." Now, the guys he works with think Frank's one good dude. But does this mean that, when he goes home at night, he doesn't still open his closet to smile wickedly at his current victim?

[Nehetsrev]

Frank is a serial killer. He just loves cutting people up, oh yeah. But during the day, he works for a forensics lab, solving crimes and bringing in "the bad guys." Now, the guys he works with think Frank's one good dude. But does this mean that, when he goes home at night, he doesn't still open his closet to smile wickedly at his current victim?

Nope, you got my vice wrong!  I simply want to blow up the world... I could care less if anyone's on it or not at the time.  Just so long as there's an Earth-shattering "KA-BOOM!" I'll be happy.

[jrizz]

Stephen that is all fine and good and I am fine if the evil PCs are doing evil things and we just dont see them. But I doubt that is the case since it would take an army of GMs to keep up with them. You see the evil acts dont happen unless someone sees it, a GM is someone. Behind closed doors going "oh I am so evil" just does not cut it. This is the issue with having evil PCs at all, the only way they can be evil is if a GM will deal with it.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Stephen that is all fine and good and I am fine if the evil PCs are doing evil things and we just dont see them. But I doubt that is the case since it would take an army of GMs to keep up with them. You see the evil acts dont happen unless someone sees it, a GM is someone. Behind closed doors going "oh I am so evil" just does not cut it. This is the issue with having evil PCs at all, the only way they can be evil is if a GM will deal with it.

Wait a moment. Are you trying to use the "if a tree falls in the woods" argument?

First-off, I don't consider that a valid argument, as the fact that noone else sees something doesn't mean that its occurrence is negated.

Secondly, that's what Character Development Threads (both public AND private!) are for.

[jrizz]

This is a game world not RL so the "if a tree falls in the woods" argument holds water

If you are just saying you are being evil and not DOING evil things, we call that cheesing

Writing about how evil you are in a CDT is the same as sitting in a room by yourself going "hahaha I am sooooo evil" but not ever really doing anything evil.

If I was running a evil PC you can bet I would be hatching evil plans with other evil players as much as I could. And when I heard about a great evil growing in the world I would be seeking it out to see what I could do to help and gain power and riches for it (or whatever it took to shake my evil mojo bone).

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I'm not sure you really understand what evil is.

Evil isn't just violence and selfishnes... It's a deep corruption, combined with either the desire to spread that corruption, the desire to further the corrupted's own ends, or both. It's not just the absence of the basic empathy for the hardship of others, but an actual disregard for that suffering. A disregard so great that the carnal pleasure (or self-conviction) in causing that suffering can, and often does, override any feelings of empathy in the person.

Evil isn't just "rah, look at me, I'm running around hurting people."

It's a deep, powerful thing.

[Acacea]

I am not saying that evil PCs have to wear their evil on their chests. All I am saying is where are the ACTIONS that define them as evil. With good PCs we see the actions that define then.

Actually, I don't see a lot of the actions that define most "Good" PCs, either. Other than that the things put in front of them to slaughter tend to be widely considered 'evil.'

Likewise, it's a little silly to see things from the 'real life" viewpoint, as most of us in real life are rarely of any extreme, for a variety of reasons. They may SEE themselves as Lawful Good because they have never gotten a parking ticket and gave a homeless guy 20 bucks once, but if all men were able to look at their entire lives so objectively as some look at the collective deeds of their characters (and other men), they might come to different conclusions and realize how few truly manage to be actually devoted to "Good". A lot of characters are kind of like that, too.

Evil PCs as you stated earlier pretty much rely on GM sanctioned activities to be evil, and if done properly your PC should know only the consequences and never the circumstances or the one responsible. My character should never hear of an evil act and automatically think "oh yes I recall this fellow of the other day who was positively reeking of evil and told me he was going to hack off my left bum cheek and feed it to his dark god's pet, do you suppose it's the same chap behind these left cheek massacres?" Because really. Poorly done. Unless you're playing a bumbling villain. Hey, that's fun too. It's easy to say the resulting conflict is fun, until the accusations of the conclusion being metagaming inevitably fly forth, and the fact that someone was blatantly responsible for evil acts 20 years ago lived solely because OOC people want to be 'nice.'

What I mean by the first sentence of the last paragraph is that there are no opportunities to be 'evil' without either having a GM around or being dumb and obvious, in which case your splendidly dark character probably shouldn't have lived past level 1. The only kind of feasible evil on Layo is gentlemanly and/or scheming, long laid plots or subtle betrayals. Just as you can't really play any kind of thieving rogue without many very good natured and non metagaming players, evil is just hard when all NPCs are plot and reset at server anyway, no one will wonder where Vanilla the waitress disappeared to and no investigation will occur Most stuff in the module is made specifically to prevent 'evil' or chaotic actions.

It's not really the fault of evil players, who are pretty much forced by the nature of Layo to be subtle and two faced (which is a good thing, in any case), but a fault of the system (if you want to consider it a fault at all) in that there are no actual roleplaying of alignment options available outside of quests or open-minded PCs. Plotting with evil PCs isn't any more of an evil action by itself than plotting with oneself by the way, I'm not sure where that came from.

So you have to look at a backstory and CDT and quest actions to see if evil is managed or if they're all talk, and if we weren't a family server probably would have been ended by the overwhelming number of 'good' characters ages ago.  On the other hand, I can say the same for a lot of good PCs. *Shrugs.* Many of them think of their 'good' being totally justified in opening their arms to anyone and everyone, enabling countless small acts of evil and abuse in their blind defense of corruption - racial hatred based on deep seeded massacres and betrayals rooted in very nature and venomous worship of the dark gods? Naah, we're all on the same side when it comes to the experience of genocide!

...And so we rely on backstory and threads to take a character's word for it that their good outweighs the evil, since there is about as much opportunity for Good without GM action as there is for evil - not much.

[lonnarin]

You REALLY don't need to be smart evil on Layo to survive.  As long as you're useful in a fight, *somebody* will tolerate you because you have skill in a sword and shield...  and if they don't, one can always click the pvp wand on them and tell them to DO something about it.  Also, not thwarting an evil player is not always about OOC kindness, but often times a result of IC fear, or simply that the character doesn't feel like breaking the law to go vigilante at the time.  If that is not the case, do not fault the evil character for the OOC actions of the people around him.  One can be greedy, crass, uneducated and vile and make do in life without the simplest semblance of manners.  As long as they know their limits and don't break any laws in front of the town guards, there really is no public authority to enforce how nice somebody's supposed to be.  I really don't see police knocking down anybody's door for not helping litte old ladies cross the street and sneering at bums... quite the opposite.  I see plenty of stupid mindless evil on the road every morning I drive to work and see these little filthy beasts cutting eachother off and getting into fistfights over road rage, and driving drunk.  Stupid evil is thriving... just watch Jerry Springer if you want proof, or visit a local prison.

Heck, just go to a local bar and meet some of these self-centered, disgusting deplorable people.  The whole of humanity reeks with their stench, and were I a paladin in real life, I'm entirely positive that my 'sense evil' special ability would be going haywire every time I walked through a crowded shopping mall.  Telemarketers, con artists, crooked cops, politicians, serial killers, cheerleaders, yuppie landlords who always steal your deposit over stuff that was broken when you moved in, lawyers, people who prey on children, psycho jocks who try to fight everything that moves, rapists, violent racists, gangs....  These people are out there... the thing is they're not exactly wearing "hello everybody, I'm so freaking evil!" T-shirts, so they blend in.  The people who actually are wearing said T-shirts are mostly harmless goth kids and metalheads anyhow.

[jrizz]

I'm not sure you really understand what evil is.

Evil isn't just violence and selfishnes... It's a deep corruption, combined with either the desire to spread that corruption, the desire to further the corrupted's own ends, or both. It's not just the absence of the basic empathy for the hardship of others, but an actual disregard for that suffering. A disregard so great that the carnal pleasure (or self-conviction) in causing that suffering can, and often does, override any feelings of empathy in the person.

Evil isn't just "rah, look at me, I'm running around hurting people."

It's a deep, powerful thing.

We are saying the same thing for the most part. I am and have said already that evil PC dont have to wear thier evil on thier chests (that means not doing the "rah, look at me, I'm running around hurting people." thing just to be clear) But I sure hope they are out there hatching some evil plans.
This is a game world, alignments are not subtle shades of grey they are more like black and white (for the most part). So evil does evil and good does good. And I have seen many many good PCs trying to do good things and on a large scale (fund raising, taking in orphans, donating to good causes, trying to do away with slavery, keeping the forces of evil at bay). So come on evil PCs step up and lets see some results, we dont have to see who did it or how but step up and do something that has results.