Ilsare Skald

[jadewillow]

Flynn is a happy man, but feels there is something missing. He loves singing, food & beverage, performing, and the arts. However, he also loves the dance of battle. Would a Skald worshipping Ilsare be a conflict?

Thanks.

[minerva]

They are often quiet individuals except in combat during which they nearly always enter in a fevor of sound, violence and fury.

Does not sound particularily Ilsare like.

Life is worth living because of the beauty found in the world and the love that draws hearts together. True beauty is more than skin deep. Believe in romance, as true love will win over all. Always follow your heart, for it leads you to your true destination. Perform loving acts, and seek to awaken love in others. Acquire beautiful items of all sorts, and encourage, sponsor, and protect those who create them. Find love wherever it takes root, and bring it to its fullest bloom so that all may share the joy and beauty it creates.

How would you marry that to " Make them bleed"  or "Broken Wail" [Death effects]?

[Angelic]

Maybe it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say a skald might see himself as the equivalent of an Ilsaran paladin? One who protects the followers, items and ideals of Ilsare through judicious use of one of Ilsare's gifts - the beauty and power of music?

I was thinking someone along the lines of Hildegard of Bingen. A composer, a poet, an author, a linguist, someone who blessed the world with the gift of opera but possessed, by all accounts, of a VERY fiery temper.

[Jaigan]

I kind of think class is class, and it sould not really matter how they live after the fact. it's like saying a country music singer can't like rap... sometimes they do

[minerva]

When you put a deity in that deity field it is proclaiming that you support the dogma and ideals of the deity above all others, not just giving them passing lip service when you feel like it. While this degree of alignment is not expected to be as close as for as for a clerical character, it should not be way out in left field either.

[Jaigan]

hehe Jaigan wouldn't know about that, lip service is about all the gods get from him when it suits his current needs :p

[Dorganath]

Problem is that some classes on Layonara take on further restrictions due to deities and dogma issues. If one is devout enough to place a deity in that character field, then said deity should play a significant role in the thinking and lifestyle of that character.

So a class is not a class, when one is a devout of a deity.

Some deity/class combos that would not make sense (not comprehensive):
Az'attan/Aeridinite/Toranite Assassin or Blackguard
Pyrtechonite Dwarven Defender
Voraxian Spellsword

[Hellblazer]

Quote:
    Life is worth living because of the beauty found in the world and the love that draws hearts together. True beauty is more than skin deep. Believe in romance, as true love will win over all. Always follow your heart, for it leads you to your true destination. Perform loving acts, and seek to awaken love in others. Acquire beautiful items of all sorts, and encourage, sponsor, and protect those who create them. Find love wherever it takes root, and bring it to its fullest bloom so that all may share the joy and beauty it creates.

actually I do not see how a skald can be opposed to that. He can still be finding love. Acquiring beautiful items; encourage, sponsor, and protect those who create them. And also promote beauty and love in his daily life up until he must defends himself and what he believe in and those who he sponsors and protect. At that time he uses the full powers of the music and art and songs. There isn't any restriction against killing what is not beautiful. I doubt, as an example, frankly that a half Giant is consider beautiful to a human and vice versa. If not then the Ilsarian are as construed as the Aeridinite as not being allowed to kill anything. Which of course is not part of their Dogma and would put a lot of the Ilsarian followers in heavy water not to mention some of the clerics too.

I've been wondering that same equation myself for the past two weeks as it may be the path that Sil'via may chose to go. Both dogma wise and prc wise. And I do not see any aberration to both being combined.  Skald  is after all an extension of the bards where their songs are aimed at disabilitating the "enemy".

they are holders of tribal tradition and often used during battle to inspire allies and break the wills of their opponents. They are often quiet individuals except in combat during which they nearly always enter in a fervor of sound, violence and fury.

as mention in the description and bold out, it clearly says that their abilities are use in combats, which doesn't restrain them of pursuing the call of Ilsare outside of when their skills must be used to defend themselves and their allies. As to the Often, it means the majority of them are quiet, but there is always the exceptions of those who are not. I can already think of one who is not that quite ig, Hardragh. He's rather a loud mouth (no offense) when he wants to be.

also pointing out this little part of Ilsare dogma: Always follow your heart, for it leads you to your true destination.

If for an ilsarian bard, his heart tells him that this is the path in which he will be able to best up hold the tenants, then by all means he should be following his heart.

[Dorganath]

Skalds use the power of their voices for destructive purposes.  It's not music but raw, sonic power.  It's not art, but a vocal hammer.  And I coded the class, so I kinda know.  

I'm not saying it's not possible, just it would need to be really well-justified beyond simple similarities of "music" and "voice". There's really not a lot of art, beauty, love or music in what makes a Skald unique or in how their abilities manifest.

[Hellblazer]

you were replying when i was editing I think I answered that in what i added.

I can see with the last two abilites, yes, but the first three are more disabilitating than actual destruction.

[Weeblie]

Primary question is...

Does a skald "sing" in an attempt to promote the beauty of the world in the form of music?

I think one gets a clear negative answer when reading the Skald's description. They are the perfect anti-artist (in the point of view of the general civilized population... and most likely also in the view of the majority of the clerical branch of Ilsare's church). Barbarians, the horrible "I never wash my socks and you can smell me before you see me"-sort of people (I know... that's not necessary true for barbarians!). :p

While it's likely possible with considerable justification, I generally simply don't see a brute like a Skald having any intentions to call themselves a follower of Ilsare (if not to make fun of it). This is on par with... um... A Skald liking to dance ballet? Or... a Voraxian favoring it too?

There are of course counter arguments to this, just as I could imagine counter arguments to... say... an Assassin of Aeridin? Perhaps he is someone who greatly worships life and values it greatly... but considers himself doing the horrible evil act for the greater good of the world (alignment crash here due to alignment restrictions for assassins, though)? Like: There is less bloodshed if I... alone... kills the evil monarch, instead of we having an open battle. Regretful, but necessary.

But.... um... sometimes, it's just stretching it too far...

A Skald is an intelligent living being just like any other, so it's just natural that they can also find love and find a great desire for beautiful things. They play "music"... so... sure... But as not all bards are followers of Ilsare (I would say that due to the principle of "general non-underdark population has an empty deity field", most bards have in fact empty deity fields too), and not all married couples follow the way of Ilsare... Skalds should have some serious considerations before even starting to lean towards that direction. Philosophical changes in one's mindset are rather burdensome, after all...

Edit: This post is meant to be above the other two...

[Hellblazer]

Aye but what happens when

1 its not a barbarian (the class is not restricted to a dual class of bar/barbarian)

2  Its not  an actual brute that is  becoming  a skald ( I doubt Sil'via can be considered that the way she looks

3 the changes happens at the same time. The attraction for the love, art and beauty seen through the eyes of an Ilsarian and the deep conviction that the path of the skald is the best way for someone to protect those she loves and cares about.

hypothetically  speaking :p

oh also two of the abilities are written as a chant and song: Deafening chant and song of exhaustion.

[Weeblie]

Skalds hail from nearly all Barbarian lands, they are holders of tribal tradition and often used during battle to inspire allies and break the wills of their opponents. They are often quiet individuals except in combat during which they nearly always enter in a fevor of sound, violence and fury.

While not necessary having the barbarian class, they are obviously yet considered sharing many of the traits found in their crazy brethren (if not by mindset, then by some parts of the philosophy).

As I've said before... it is not difficult to justify just about anything. It's more a matter of making it sound very smooth and making it become an integral part of one's character. The danger, while not being a "true" danger, is that it will look like a mere excuse in the eyes of others. A submission for a deity should be so very convincing that it would pass on the first try. So one could even convince a rock that... "hey, being a follower of Ilsare is an absolutely must for my character!".

[Hellblazer]

So basically where the line is drawn to be able to become a skald is where they are born?

What I mean by that is someone that has found the fascination of the "trade" could not be able to learn how to harness their vocal power from an other skald because they are not from the Barbarian lands?

[Weeblie]

One does't have to be born as a skald. It's all fine to become that by own choice, the second of your statement there.

But lets get another example... Say a rich person wishes to live in the mountains, like an hermit, to learn their ways to feel better inside. He can either do it properly and start to eat bark (which will invitely actually make him an hermit!) or he can cheat and have 24/7 pizza delivery handing those delicious round things over to him on each weekend (which.... um... do you think the rich man would be approved for the hermit class doing the last? and get all the hermit powers? :p). And... of course, you have the less extreme variant when the rich one starts to meditate in his own artifical mountain at his home. So... not a full transition... but still getting some of it! And by that, getting some hermit skills.

[Jaigan]

It means if you want to be the odd ball out, start writing your CDT :p  and stick to it till the GM's break and give in haha;)

[Hellblazer]

He He.

Naw I agree with the fact that the submission must be well written to suport both, Although I stand with my previous statement that there is nothing to point that it would be such an aberration that it would be impossible for both to be weighted down and balanced into a uniform style of living.

I'll use Sil'via as an example here (it may or may not be what I have planned so he don't get your hopes up on knowing in advance. =P )

With all that has been happening to her lately, the constant attacks on her family (which includes the whole bunch at the angels) the lich, being murdered, she feels the need to better herself in a way that would not only protect her but protect all the one she loves. After Seeing how easily she was defeated by G'ork, even with one of her sister and a friend of hers; and after seeing how easily G'ork was defeated by a skald (Hardragh) she started to think, and was pretty much mesmerized by the abilities the Skald  had shown.

On the other side of the spectrum, her life has always been leaning toward what was beauty, love and arts. She may have also started to talk to some people about the Ilsare dogma.

Now keeping in light of the events of her life and who she is becoming, its not so far stretched to see that she could find a balance with both. Using the abilities to protect the loved one and what she finds beauty in.

Not every cases are the same, and not every reasons are valid. But I do not feel that the two are impossible to mix together.

[Dorganath]

I wasn't saying it was "impossible" but the combination of an inherently destructive/debilitating/violent class such as Skald and the dogma of certain deities, such as Ilsare, can and do come into conflict.  Some of these conflicts can be resolved, others are so diametrically opposed as to be unworkable.

The fact is, we could sit around all day and split hairs and argue semantics until we couldn't see straight, but the fact will remain that if you do attempt to strive for one of these combos, it will be a very difficult road and/or may possibly require significant compromises in one's RP to properly qualify and maintain such a combination.

I think that's where Minerva was going above when she said:

How would you marry that to " Make them bleed"  or "Broken Wail" [Death effects]?

[Acacea]

((Oops. Can someone put a morning ban on me from the forums in effect until after 8am? This is what always happens. ))

Hellblazer - No, I understand what you are getting at, but think it's pretty as stated, that a devout follower of Ilsare would have a hard time meshing the core of the skaldic traditions with what she's all about. It has nothing to do with birthplace, though people from the north are more intimately familiar with the practice and their deity is awesome for skalds anyway, nor is it about the RL practices of the skald. But there's a lot of room under the devout tag, you know?

Like, when Acacea was a lot lower leveled, there were still seemingly infinite branches of places she could go - I like low leveled characters because they still have so many things left open to them and you never quite know where they're going to end up. She had encounters with the intelligence branch and was a likely candidate for the MAS. She almost went Shadowdancer, not in the manner of the shady darkness obsessed people but in the kind of way of a performer dancing in and out of sight on the borders of light and shadow, the only hint of her presence being the sound of bells chiming as she disappeared... sort of thing.

It also looked like she might go skald at some point. For a long time she almost exclusively used curse song, not bard song, and a lot of her so-called charm was in her attempting to take down and tear apart enemies a great deal larger than her. She didn't have the barbarian part, but she wasn't of northern traditions, just a tough runt with a bigger voice than outward appearances might show. (For those wondering where all that food goes in a tiny thing or why she doesn't knock herself out running around all the time...she has 16 CON now! That's where it goes!)

Anyway, she used a lot of discord in her abilities, not in lack of skill but in purposeful targeting of enemy ears to make them fumble or cause them pain. The ilsarians didn't like her to practice (in joking or seriousness, usually the former trying to be 'scary' or 'fierce') near their garden, because while it was useful, and perhaps even on its way to becoming skilled, it was not beautiful. It really had nothing to do with it, and there was a teeny bit of miff about shattering the harmony of the temple with some dissonant vocal acrobatics.

I like Dorand because he's a god of functional beauty. That's not to say elves don't like their things to function, but it is not the function itself that is necessarily beautiful to them. As Fuller's quote goes, "When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." I always thought it was appropriate to the god of the crafts, regardless of what craft it is, as long as you are creating something. Dwarves don't often make things to be pretty, but there are masterwork dwarven pieces that are beautiful... kind of approaching it from the opposite direction.

Rambling, right? Cool, it's 6AM, cut me some slack... Anyway. I think what I was getting at was that I have a hard time seeing a skald being as anyone whose goals mimic that of the Ilsarians. I think the followers are often misrepresented as being empty headed and shallow, which is not the case - all faiths have their best and worsts and stereotypes and should all be OOC assumed to have more layers than appearances show - but their path just starts at the opposite end of a skald's. What is the goal and purpose of the skald, when you get right down to it? To wreak havoc and destruction with his voice. To any observer that appreciates someone who is a master of their craft, a skald too is a beautiful thing, as a weapon master in mid-combat is a deadly beautiful sight. But is that the goal or purpose of either of them? To be beautiful, in love of things that please and inspire the senses to better the soul, etc? To praise the elven muse and bring love and harmony? I think no. Tough nut to crack.

It is not an unsurmountable barrier of course, for those who aren't clerics. Yes, having it in the deity field implies a degree of devotion beyond mere lip service, whatever form it may take, but the devotion goes from self up, with no connection at the other end. There is no grace to fall from, no goddess to withdraw her hand. It is more likely that one might strive to master it in a way pleasing to Ilsare, and on the road to doing so, just slip further and further away from Her even while still considering himself devoted, until at some point in life he just kind of realizes that his road forked somewhere back there.

So the only question left to me is a more general one - how malleable is the vision of prestige classes? Base classes can, in my opinion, be done a thousand different ways and serve any purpose with imagination, but PrC's seem focused towards a more singular path. How much can you bend them before you break them? A bard can fill a thousand roles in various cultures, but can a skald? Could one write a bard sub who, later in life, became so exquisitely skilled in his beautiful music that he could not only inspire his allies to the heights of bravery, but also rend an enemy to his very death, while still playing with the endless nuances of aesthetic harmonies?

It almost sounds rhetorical, though it wasn't originally. I don't think the PrCs bend as far as base classes do, even though I would be the last to not desire imagination in their pursuit. I think the skaldic traditions on Layo remain an art that can be approached from several different angles... but with the same general purpose - wreaking destruction with a more primal form of sound. I actually have a hard time imagining ANY elven (or dark elven) skald, just because both races seem so proud of a more refined beauty, even if one is of the more dark and sinister variety It's not prevented, just kind of, hmm...something to think about.

(FYI, because I've seen how OOC answers in threads somehow end up as in game stereotypes aimed to make things look ridiculous... I don't think Ilsarians necessarily hate skalds, I just think that they're not skalds, that they just follow different principles of life. Of course some stuck up elves that also worship Ilsare would consider most to be unrefined brutes, but that's different. Key word, stuck up!)

[lonnarin]

Skalds use the power of their voices for destructive purposes.  It's not music but raw, sonic power.  It's not art, but a vocal hammer.  And I coded the class, so I kinda know.  

I'm not saying it's not possible, just it would need to be really well-justified beyond simple similarities of "music" and "voice". There's really not a lot of art, beauty, love or music in what makes a Skald unique or in how their abilities manifest.

A little feedback on how I've interperated the skald abilities thus far.. According to the game mechanics of how other spells/effects work, some of the abilities seem to be rather curse-based rather than sonic.  

While Make them Bleed and Blindness/Deafness are surely easily defined as just a big sonic blast, the Slow song has stranger, non-sonic typical effects and is opposed by Will Save, which is more akin to a curse.  (transmutative effect vs. will save)  

The Fear song seems like a morale-based effect/enchantment or illusion rather than a sonic roar, though the sheer volume of it might induce a fear effect via the situational "OMG, that guy just roared at 500dB!".  

The Wail of Death is opposed by a fort save, which makes it possible that it is the result of the sonic vibrations causing heavy internal damage, or alternatively it could be a necromancy effect.  I prefer the physical trauma explaination, since the wail cuts clean through death wards and shadow shield which grants necromancy immunity.  

Blindness/Deafness is Will Based instead of Fort Based however, which indicates that it's possibly a curse-effect as well, since a reflex or fort save would be more appropriate for resisting a purely sonic effect.  If it was purely sonic induced, then I would guess reflex save most appropriate, since resisting would be a matter of blocking your ears in time akin to a thunderstone's save.

This assumes the standard that Will Save typically resists morale effects, enchantments and hexes, Fortitude Save involves bracing against Necromancy and physical trauma, and that Reflex Save represents dodging an object or a force.  In the Saving Throw used for each ability, the means of the power's implimentation are implied.