DTs

[DMOE]

But the current system, well let me phrase it this way. If there wasn't a problem with the way things are, then this thread wouldn't be here.

And yet, I've played here for well over two years and the only time anyone has seemed to have serious problems with the DT system has been since the new project and the fact NWN Layo will be ending was announced....

So I ask, has it always been a problem or is it simply a problem now the end is in sight so to speak?

And if it is simply because the end is in sight, why?

I think these are important questions....

I personally don't want the DT system to change, nor do I think it should be relaxed because the end is in sight for NWN Layo, I personally think that changes such as that just because it will be ending will cheapen all it has been before.

[Lynn1020]

I don't think the end of this version of Layo really has anything to do with it. Other than some may not want to start over with a new character this late. But I'm sure if we go back and search the forums we will find post on the same discussion's.

I personally don't see how maybe finding improvements in the system will cheapen Layo. Helping those that have taken the time to develop their character for the last few years to hang on to them a bit longer is cheapen it?  I don't thinks so.  Most of those that seem to disagree with the system doesn't want to see it go away.  Its more about the fairness of the system and just looking for ways to improve it.

It is pretty clear that the system isn't changing.  We have been told to pretty much suck it up and deal with it.  But this discussion may give ideas for the future in the new version.

We could get into the discussion on things that have "cheapen" Layo but that would be a total different thread.

[jrizz]

Hello all,
I really feel like this thread in going in a good direction with the feedback and proposals from Stragen, DarkStorme, and myself. I would really lie it if we can keep going on looking proposals. We have gone back and forth about the current system and why some people love it and some people hate it. Lets park that issue for now and focus on the proposals. All of which I might add still have permadeath as part of them.

If you would like to continue the discussion on loving or hating the current system that perhaps someone should post a poll to see how the community is split. I am sure there are a lot of polls that could come out of that line of thinking. So to keep this thread on proposals I have started and new thread called "the current death system good or not good" here:

http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/184472-current-death-system-good-not-good.html#post974152

[Dorganath]

I think there's just as much room in this or another discussion thread to hear not only proposals for change but reasons for keeping things as they are or making only minor adjustments.  Both sides are equally valid.

[DMOE]

I was referring to relaxing the system just because NWN Layo is ending when I mentioned cheapening....

Personally....I think to relax it just because NWN Layo is going to end actually would cheapen it for all those who have permed previously....That's just my humble opinion of course....

And yes, there have been occasional posts regarding the DT system....But none to the degree that I have seen since it was announced NWN Layo would be ending....Hence why I said  it seems people only have serious problems with it since the announcement....Not that no one ever has.


You know...just once, just for once it would be nice to have a personal opinion that wasn't fluffy and cuddly without being made to feel like a criminal for it or having it nitpicked out of context.....

Yes, it's not a popular opinion, but nor was it rude or confrontational....

On another note....I do think it is totally unreasonable to ask people to only post positive opinions in a thread, especially...straight after the first non, fluffy, disagrees with you post

[jrizz]

I think there's just as much room in this or another discussion thread to hear not only proposals for change but reasons for keeping things as they are or making only minor adjustments.  Both sides are equally valid.

But not focused and can throw a lot of FUD into either topic.

[Dorganath]

Respectfully, only discussing one side of things is not a discussion, it's a pep rally.  

Using terms like "hopelessness" contributes to FUD as well.

I'm suggesting an open, and respectful, discussion of all points, not just those in favor of overhauling the system.

It's only a suggestion, and I'm surely not trying to control the discussion...I just don't agree with limiting the talking points to just those in favor of change.

[jrizz]

I was referring to relaxing the system just because NWN Layo is ending when I mentioned cheapening....

Personally....I think to relax it just because NWN Layo is going to end actually would cheapen it for all those who have permed previously....That's just my humble opinion of course....

And yes, there have been occasional posts regarding the DT system....But none to the degree that I have seen since it was announced NWN Layo would be ending....Hence why I said  it seems people only have serious problems with it since the announcement....Not that no one ever has.


You know...just once, just for once it would be nice to have a personal opinion that wasn't fluffy and cuddly without being made to feel like a criminal for it or having it nitpicked out of context.....

Yes, it's not a popular opinion, but nor was it rude or confrontational....

On another note....I do think it is totally unreasonable to ask people to only post positive opinions in a thread, especially...straight after the first non, fluffy, disagrees with you post

I am sorry if it came out that way. What I meant to say was that this thread has evolved into a discussion on what can be done if a change would take place to keep the flavor that we have and yet improve on the current system. It is understood that some will say "no change needed" and that is fine. But if there was to be a change what would you like to see? How would it need to form so as not to lose the important aspects of a permadeath system? Would love to hear your thoughts on that.

[jrizz]

Respectfully, only discussing one side of things is not a discussion, it's a pep rally.  

Using terms like "hopelessness" contributes to FUD as well.

I'm suggesting an open, and respectful, discussion of all points, not just those in favor of overhauling the system.

It's only a suggestion, and I'm surely not trying to control the discussion...I just don't agree with limiting the talking points to just those in favor of change.

OK point taken but it is hard to discuss proposals of how something can change at the same time as if something should change. That is why I suggested the split so that one discussion could be about the if and another about the how. How do you think we can stay focused on the subjects?

[jrizz]

@Dorg you also bring up a very good point about my use of terms. And I have said in an earlier post that I will try to stay away from using emotional memes in my proposals. In PnP there was a set number of deaths system but there was also ways to increase that number. We have a set number of SS that get lost randomly on a death event but we dont have a way to increase that number.

So that brings us back to the ideas at hand. How do you view the three proposals we currently have on the table? Do you have another proposal? Well really I should say in all fairness four proposals since one of them is the no change needed proposal.

[Dorganath]

Well "if" and "how" can remain separate questions, even though they are quite related.  In whatever discussion/discussions come about though, both sides should be included.

Further, it would probably facilitate things if there was less debate and more proposal.  Don't spend so much time on the problems of one vs. the other (or the proposals of others) but rather focus on stating one's preference and justifying why that is superior based on its own merits.

That would be my suggestion, but I have no desire or time to mediate this overall discussion, so feel free to disagree with me.

[jrizz]

Great suggestion. Thank you.

[jrizz]

I prefer either DarkStorme's or my own proposal. I feel they both are improvements over the current system in that they add something the system needs (as I see it) without taking away the attribute of permadeath.

As to my proposal I feel it is the best way to go since it keeps the number of SS finite and thus makes permadeath still a real thing. But it also gives a way and reason to keep playing your PCs as they have evolved even when they get to high SS loss counts. Furthermore it promotes better group play in a more spread out fashion. It also does away with the "only one SS left" syndrome and the "I will never see level x" syndrome even though both of those things will still be possible. PC's will still get to the only one SS left state and many will still not see level x but by giving a goal that can be reached to "make it" for a while longer PCs will be thinking to that point in the future instead.

To be fair I think DS's proposal also have many of the same aspects.

[EdTheKet]

So....

I would like to see the following, as I am kind of lost now

______________
Proposal 1:
Pros:
1)
2)
3)
etc.

Cons:
1)
2)
3)
etc.


Proposal 2:
Pros:
1)
2)
3)
etc.

Cons:
1)
2)
3)
etc.

And so on, because I've lost the oversight (and I'm probably not the only one)

Thanks!

[Makashi]

I miss the days of picking up my friends corpse, slugging it back to the nearest temple and waiting for a cleric to come along to help them.

I am sure almost every GM on this server has experienced a tell similar to this:
'I'm going to roll a strength check to carry the corpse' - Why is that so necessary when it can simply be overcome by a corpse being left in replace of a grave stone, and then actually have a weight, so if the PCs pack is light enough, they can carry the corpse, if not, well, it's a long walk back. (minor issue really, but it's happened on more than one quest, both running and taking part in them).

When a player died they would be sent into a limbo - on the server I played on i actually sometimes looked forward to dying to find out some information I was interested in, or hear information I didn't know etc. (and I was very, very suprised how little most of the information was metagamed)

Limbo was a big library of past goings on, stories, jokes, players accounts of events, even a place to sit and just relax - Anyway, it was something that made dying bearable, the information changed daily - and you got a new experience with most deaths.

I can recall one time where a person in our party died, we didn't need this person to go on, and didn't have a cleric to resurrect the corpse we now had. Knowing however they would be trapped in this place until some one decided to help, we took the corpse back to a town, and found a cleric to help us, who also ended up joining us, and then also became a good travelling partner for future trips - Death actually helped start RP, here my personal opinion is it doesn't offer an experience anywhere near, not even the same scale as that provided.
Take this situation into mind on layonara, a person in your group dies, but you don't need them and don't have a cleric - four out of five times that person would get left behind I imagine, maybe things would change knowing that the only way for that person to come back is in the hands of the group you left with.

The other option, if you were feeling desperate was to lose about half a level of exp and jump out of limbo, and also be unable to gain any exp for several hours, and lowered stats and a visual effect to show they were currently suffering - We called them plagued (a bit like the empty creature system we use)

I was about to write specifics about the system and how "DT" / "shard" losses occur but that will get complicated - but the system did have perma deaths, and they did happen, though rarely, and normally through quests.

*slaps hands on his knees standing* Well thats my trip down memory lane done! I'm not suggesting this as the answer to the current system, bringing it over to layo may not work - may cause too much work because of some of the things within it - and I really do not expect the community to respond to these changes in the same way. Thought I'd just share my personal favourite from the ones I've witnessed.

[Lynn1020]

I was not saying or meant to come across that you did not have the right to your opinion.

I was referring to relaxing the system just because NWN Layo is ending when I mentioned cheapening....

Personally....I think to relax it just because NWN Layo is going to end actually would cheapen it for all those who have permed previously....That's just my humble opinion of course....

And yes, there have been occasional posts regarding the DT system....But none to the degree that I have seen since it was announced NWN Layo would be ending....Hence why I said  it seems people only have serious problems with it since the announcement....Not that no one ever has.


You know...just once, just for once it would be nice to have a personal opinion that wasn't fluffy and cuddly without being made to feel like a criminal for it or having it nitpicked out of context.....

Yes, it's not a popular opinion, but nor was it rude or confrontational....

On another note....I do think it is totally unreasonable to ask people to only post positive opinions in a thread, especially...straight after the first non, fluffy, disagrees with you post

[Lalaith Va'lash]

I miss the days of picking up my friends corpse, slugging it back to the nearest temple and waiting for a cleric to come along to help them.

I am sure almost every GM on this server has experienced a tell similar to this:
'I'm going to roll a strength check to carry the corpse' - Why is that so necessary when it can simply be overcome by a corpse being left in replace of a grave stone, and then actually have a weight, so if the PCs pack is light enough, they can carry the corpse, if not, well, it's a long walk back. (minor issue really, but it's happened on more than one quest, both running and taking part in them).

When a player died they would be sent into a limbo - on the server I played on i actually sometimes looked forward to dying to find out some information I was interested in, or hear information I didn't know etc. (and I was very, very suprised how little most of the information was metagamed)

Limbo was a big library of past goings on, stories, jokes, players accounts of events, even a place to sit and just relax - Anyway, it was something that made dying bearable, the information changed daily - and you got a new experience with most deaths.

I can recall one time where a person in our party died, we didn't need this person to go on, and didn't have a cleric to resurrect the corpse we now had. Knowing however they would be trapped in this place until some one decided to help, we took the corpse back to a town, and found a cleric to help us, who also ended up joining us, and then also became a good travelling partner for future trips - Death actually helped start RP, here my personal opinion is it doesn't offer an experience anywhere near, not even the same scale as that provided.
Take this situation into mind on layonara, a person in your group dies, but you don't need them and don't have a cleric - four out of five times that person would get left behind I imagine, maybe things would change knowing that the only way for that person to come back is in the hands of the group you left with.

The other option, if you were feeling desperate was to lose about half a level of exp and jump out of limbo, and also be unable to gain any exp for several hours, and lowered stats and a visual effect to show they were currently suffering - We called them plagued (a bit like the empty creature system we use)

I was about to write specifics about the system and how "DT" / "shard" losses occur but that will get complicated - but the system did have perma deaths, and they did happen, though rarely, and normally through quests.

*slaps hands on his knees standing* Well thats my trip down memory lane done! I'm not suggesting this as the answer to the current system, bringing it over to layo may not work - may cause too much work because of some of the things within it - and I really do not expect the community to respond to these changes in the same way. Thought I'd just share my personal favourite from the ones I've witnessed.

I'm in agreement with this, honestly.  I loved the death system on the other server I played on.  We called it the nexus, or something instead of Limbo... but it was a similar idea.  The bodies also weighed a ton!

I think it was mentioned before about a system that only has a chance of SS loss on respawn?  If we had a system that you could carry the bodies to get them raised, and then you only had a % chance to lose a SS on respawn, I think that would be great. You keep the randomness factor, you keep permadeath.  And it makes sense IC to me that if its the strain of your soul being tethered to the bindstone that cuts a SS -- well, then it should be when you pull on the bindstone that it has a chance to cut.  Not when a cleric uses a piece of their soul or a soul stone to bring you back.

But, that is me

EDIT: On talking to Makashi about this a little bit, I also like to add to this the idea of a maximum time before force respawn -- like 6 hours.

[jrizz]

Yo Ed here is my proposal for your viewing pleasure (Look up for community feedback)

Proposal: Soul strength grows with the PC.
At 4th level you get 4 SS then you earn 1 every 2 levels. That will be a total of 12 by 20th level. Keep SMD at 21st level, but make it 2 or 3 not 5 and have the earning go to one every three or four levels after 21. This method keeps the SS loss system as is and still keeps your PC afraid of death. Also this method shows that the PC grows in soul strength as she gains in experience instead of getting weaker in soul. I feel it is the best way to go since it keeps the number of SS finite and thus makes permadeath still a real thing. But it also gives a way and reason to keep playing your PCs as they have evolved even when they get to high SS loss counts. Furthermore it promotes better group play in a more spread out fashion. It also does away with the "only one SS left" syndrome and the "I will never see level x" syndrome even though both of those things will still be possible. PC's will still get to the only one SS left state and many will still not see level x but by giving a goal that can be reached to "make it" for a while longer PCs will be thinking to that point in the future instead.

Pros
1. Keeps the SS loss system as is and still keeps your PC afraid of death.
2. Keeps the number of SS finite and thus makes permadeath still a real thing
3. Does away with the "only one SS left" syndrome and the "I will never see level x" syndrome
4. Gives a goal that can be reached to "make it" for a while longer

Cons

1. Permadeath is still part of it and thus will result in some unhappy people
2. Will take reconciliation and equalization in a sweeping event.
3. Will need to be implemented.

NOTE: With such a system in place I (like DS) suggest that the SS refund system go away and the only refunds allowed will be ones that happen on GM quests (at the discretion of the GM of course).

[Gulnyr]

I think it was mentioned before about a system that only has a chance of SS loss on respawn?  If we had a system that you could carry the bodies to get them raised, and then you only had a % chance to lose a SS on respawn, I think that would be great. You keep the randomness factor, you keep permadeath.  And it makes sense IC to me that if its the strain of your soul being tethered to the bindstone that cuts a SS -- well, then it should be when you pull on the bindstone that it has a chance to cut.  Not when a cleric uses a piece of their soul or a soul stone to bring you back.

First, to the bold part, it is my understanding of what has been said that it is the death of a person that causes strands to be cut, and not anything directly related to the bindstones.  It's the strain of dying that breaks the strands, not the strain of bindstone resurrection.  Everyone, bound or not, has ten (or fifteen for the SMD crowd) soul strands holding their souls to their bodies.  Anyone, bound or not, who dies may or may not lose a strand, but his soul goes flying off.  The bindstones are some sort of magical catcher's mitt sewing machines that keep the soul of a bound person nearby and allow the soul to reattach itself to however many soul strands are left dangling from the person's body, if the soul so chooses.  That's why nothing can be done when all the strands are cut; there's nothing for the soul to hold onto to stay with the body.  It's also why unbound NPCs (or PCs, even) can still be raised; there's somewhere for the soul to reattach itself, usually.

Second, I think this is the most recent thread about such a body-hauling system, and it includes links to other discussions about it, just in case anyone would like to check out ups and downs previously discussed.

[Dorganath]

Correct.  It's the strain of death that causes the strand loss, not the bindstone.  The bindstone allows a person to return to life on their own without being raised or resurrected by a cleric.