DTs

[miasma_hemlock]

"How about this for a proposition:

If you were to join a world with great RP and a plethora of DM'ed events that had a death system that involved a random chance that you would perm on each death after the first ten after third level, you'd (likely as not) accept it.

You wouldn't be demanding to see the values of whatever tally system they used to keep track of things."



Honestly?  I think there'd be just as much complaining as there is with a transparent system, if not more so.  Especially if the people who programmed and run the system are also DMs and also players.  You would have a lot of accusations of cheating when the DMs and administrators players live to be epic, and being "out to get me" whenever a non-Dm player died young or in a way that they think they should have survived (or due to a DM spawn or event that was beyond their abilities.)  

I'm not for a second saying any Layonara team members would do that, by the way, I'm saying what is human nature with things like this.  We all think we're more mature than we really are, and when you get a few mildly disgruntled or upset people together (which many folks would tend to be if a treasured character died) the conspiracy theories fly.  It would be different if Layo was made and run by an anonymous game company but when the people who are in charge are also DMs and also players you really need for all of your rules and systems to be out in the open.

I don't know what the answer is of course.  I always thought the soul strand system should kick in at a higher level, even waiting until the character was "epic" to give people a fighting chance before they started losing strands.  Or even making it a straight once you're epic you have ten deaths and that's it, take the randomness out of it. But then I think all three soul strands I lost were before level 10 and due to other people dragging assassin vines around by Krandor.

[stragen]

Ladies and Gents,

Firstly to Serrisa who picked up a SS last night at the same time as Jacrum.  I had fun.  My apologies as I was bound to west.

Those of us who still play Layonara are those who have the persona to withstand the loss of characters.  Or are lucky enough never to have permed one.  I know a friends and players who have left this server because of the nature of the system.   With loss of soul strands triggering depression in real-life.

I was thinking an alternative, perma-death system would be:

Allow a total of 10 respawns.  That is respawn not deaths.
Allow corpses of characters to carried.
Allow temples to raise a corpse, at the cost of the characters delivering the corpse.
Forced respawn after 2 days game-time.  After which time a corpse can no longer be raised.
Addtional, provide more negative HPs.  So that if the group of PCs do win the battle then basic first aid and healing may be used to revive some of those fallen unconscious and near death.  Ie CPR works if applied quickly.


In this system loss of a soul strand becomes a conscious decision.  The character having to pay a toll to the soul mother to return to the plane of the living.  There is the hope that they will be raised before a respawn is forced.  There are some really good systems for moving corpses and raising the dead on other NWN servers.  This system could be used for Layo 2.


Cheers,

Stragen

[osxmallard]

I would prolly be one of them.  could there be a new system?  Sure.  Could there be a better one?  Maybe...  Would I EVER support one that keeps knowledge like that from players?  Never

sarcasm

Yeah, I guess it is better to just metagame how many you have left and let it directly affect your RP.
 
/sarcasm

[Kirbiana]

I'm kind of a Layo light-weight (ie, not enough free time to do much more than a little crafting and therefore permanently low-level), but if the MMO team is still mulling over their death system for the new game, I thought it might be worth their while to hear from the peanut gallery too.
 
 
 
 My main angst about the current soul-strand system is that I am such a bad game-player that I really have trouble reacting to any battle situation in a timely fashion. I'd be totally okay with losing strands for my own characters because of that, but I really get upset when someone else loses a strand because I aggro'd too many monsters with a mis-click or cast a heal WAY too late. The result after a year or so of playing is that I seldom accompany any of my friends to serious battles, because I dread causing that to happen to them again. (And yes, I'm a wimp in real life too!)
 
 I have no opinion on what might be a better penalty system to discourage mindless hack-and-slash, but I just thought I'd mention this aspect of the current system as it pertains to group RP in dangerous settings, for me at least.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

Ladies and Gents,

Firstly to Serrisa who picked up a SS last night at the same time as Jacrum.  I had fun.  My apologies as I was bound to west.

Those of us who still play Layonara are those who have the persona to withstand the loss of characters.  Or are lucky enough never to have permed one.  I know a friends and players who have left this server because of the nature of the system.   With loss of soul strands triggering depression in real-life.

I was thinking an alternative, perma-death system would be:

Allow a total of 10 respawns.  That is respawn not deaths.
Allow corpses of characters to carried.
Allow temples to raise a corpse, at the cost of the characters delivering the corpse.
Forced respawn after 2 days game-time.  After which time a corpse can no longer be raised.
Addtional, provide more negative HPs.  So that if the group of PCs do win the battle then basic first aid and healing may be used to revive some of those fallen unconscious and near death.  Ie CPR works if applied quickly.


In this system loss of a soul strand becomes a conscious decision.  The character having to pay a toll to the soul mother to return to the plane of the living.  There is the hope that they will be raised before a respawn is forced.  There are some really good systems for moving corpses and raising the dead on other NWN servers.  This system could be used for Layo 2.


Cheers,

Stragen

Hey, thats not bad.  At any rate, it also prevents soloing... since somebody is less likely to find your body.

Or, it would encourage you to let you friends know IC ahead of time where you'll be.

Of course, you'll always have the Rez monkeys (As we called them on another server)  I.e.:  "Oh, just drag XYZ's corpse back to the crossroads, and I'll log out and log in with my cleric to raise him for you."

No system is perfect.  I do like the player having the conscious choice. IMO if its because the soul is tethered to the bindstone that your putting a strain on your soul in death it should be on respawn that you roll the 1d100 for the soul mother.  Its the cleric that uses the soulstone or the piece of their soul to bring you back otherwise.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

sarcasm

Yeah, I guess it is better to just metagame how many you have left and let it directly affect your RP.
 
/sarcasm

As I understand it, and have been told officially in the past, it is IC knowledge that a given Bound character has ten Soul Strands.

I have roleplayed accordingly, with my character taking each loss harder, as it's that much closer to the final death - and that much more strain on what's left of that tether, when he's pulled back. It's been a fairly good RP device, and sets him up well for several potential outcomes of his final few years.

Were the death system different, I would roleplay it differently. *Shrug.* But it is what it is, at the moment.

[Dorganath]

It is IC knowledge. It's also IC knowledge that not everyone chooses to bind.  In fact, it is only the "adventurer" set that generally binds, and binding has that whole trade-off thing associated with it.

[jrizz]

What are the mechanics if a person chooses to unbind from the bindstones (if they can)?

What are the mechanics if a new PC chooses not to bind?

[Dorganath]

There are no mechanics for PC in either case. I'm not even sure there's a lore-supported, IC way to unbind.

Mechanically, all new PCs are auto-bound to either Port Hempstead or Fort Vehl.

That said, respawning is still a conscious choice, both IC and OOC.  It's entirely possible to decide not to respawn and remain dead. There's actually a character in-play right now who takes that view (i.e. the first death without someone around to raise will be the last) and has not purposefully bound to a bindstone.

[jrizz]

So what is the relation of the Soul Mother to the bindstones? Can she still operate without them?

[Honora]

Why do I always end up posting after Dorg?  *sighs*

I like the chance of permadeath.  Whether or not it encourages good RP is dependent on the player, not the game mechanics in my opinion.  I personally have played many a game with no chance of dying, just XP loss, and I'll take the *possibility* of an SS over the definite loss of a stupid amount of what is now VERY precious time any day.  

I will point something else out that feels unique to our SS system.  How many of you have made families in game, married and had children (or just had children ) with the idea that it would be a good backup in case your main died, for continuity's sake?  Not as a primary objective, perhaps, but in addition to the other reasons...I know I factored that in when Honora adopted.  And it adds a huge, wonderful level to roleplay when you do that.  So the chance of permadeath has, *perhaps*, also contributed to the layers of families and generations that have given Layonara such a dimensional feel.

And I'm spent.

[Dorganath]

So what is the relation of the Soul Mother to the bindstones? Can she still operate without them?

I'm going to leave the full answer to this question to EdTheKet, as the answer sort of bleeds into matters of lore that may or may not be made known to the general public and/or which may not yet be fully finalized.

The [lore]Layonara Cosmology[/lore] document describes, generically, what happens to souls on death under the section on the Thread and the Desolate Frontier.

[Lynn1020]

Once again another great pc is lost to the Soul mother.     It has ruin the fun of the game for many and once again has taken the urge to rp away from me.    

I can now see why the death system could cause many just run with their groups seeing how fast they can get to the highest level.  Because it is easier when it is all over and they have no real connection to their character and it will be easy for them to just walk away and quit.

[Blackguy]

There is no connection with people and highlevels and their relation to them. People run in groups for a simple reason, trust, and RL. Its as simple as that.

Other than that, I agree, the deathsystem is the worst system implented on Layonara.

[Acacea]

Well, I don't know about the worst... I'm not a fan of the clicking one hundred times every five minutes food/drink thing (in contrast with, say, LORE birds which are awesome), and it seems like the big issue with the DT system is split into two camps - those who hate, hate, loathe in all possible manners the mere possibility of ever losing their characters, and those who can see how at one point in concept the whole roleplay of it might have been good, except there is so many things beyond player control OOCwise that it becomes something that hurts roleplay instead of makes it better.

To the formers, well, sorry... it's been said that the implementation may change but the point of the system isn't going anywhere and is considered a big part of the world.

To the latter, is there any way that it could be made better - both with a personal change of perspective combined with alterations to the system, even if it were the simple answer of "less OOC losses" ?

For example, if the Disputes were gone, but there was an IC system available for regaining soul strands, regardless of difficulty level or cost. Remember they wanted to put this in NWN? If you could do something to get them back IC, wouldn't it help? If we had a more stable client that could handle the kind of stuff we put it through, offering less lag and the frustration of hearing "pull back" and watching in horror as your character skips ahead instead, would that help? What if there were other avenues of progressing your skills than going to an area several levels above you and getting your butt handed to you? (Though of course that remains an option!) Or skills that allowed you to retreat better, without constantly being scolded for dragging spawns away which basically means anyone, no matter how chaotic, must stay the course and die lest they accidentally drag on some invisible NPCs?

For that matter, what if certain abilities unlocked, the more strands you lost? There is an interesting tangent - areas in the distant future that could only be entered by those closest to death, berserker rage or retreat abilities from those that want so much to live and yet are about to die... what if enemies fled in the presence of final death, leaving it more of a momentous event instead of something that crashes everyone out of game? If it were more integrated with character possibilities instead of feeling like this big OOC mess of grievances and a countdown, would it feel more like a part of character growth as intended?

Again, I'm not talking to the people who will hate the entire concept and possibility, no matter what. There's nothing I can say to that, except that it probably sucks playing here. But I do think that those people are fewer than this thread implies - it's just my personal opinion based on talking to people and reading the forums that much of the dislike for the system comes from situations that yes, could have been good roleplay or character growth, but were frustrating and confusing instead - what happened? Were you lagging? Did you crash? Was the model glitched? Does anyone have logs? Who lost a strand? How many do you have left? Do we have witnesses? Etc. The impossibility of this improving this more than has already been done in NWN has just soured many completely on it.

In case there is any confusion, I am not offering any promises or information or anything of the sort. I am in no position to do so, obviously. All I am doing is asking, because I wonder if those who hate it most in NWN would have been able to stomach it in better conditions. Or, from another angle, what is "better" without losing the possibility of death? I know it's hard to get past that, since that's the big issue, but sometimes we have to just rant on for awhile going "I don't WANT possibility of death!" and then finally sigh and start thinking, "fine, if you have to have permadeath, maybe we can do it like this..."

What would make it work for you? stragen posted one idea. Again... it's really only as a personal favor to me, because I'm not sure such a discussion could go anywhere, but I think it would be interesting to see how different people viewed the different ways of implementing permadeath. No mechanical system will ever suit everyone, but by looking around at the different angles people can throw rocks from, you start noticing similar needs that suggestions are meant to satisfy...so even when the suggestion does not suit, it has served to point out what is needed. If nothing else, using some frustration to start thinking of ways it could work could at least give some hope for the future - if you can think of even one way that it could work for you, it becomes less impossible to hope that the team might find one, too, even if it's not yours.

[darkstorme]

Other than that, I agree, the deathsystem is the worst system implented on Layonara.

You honestly believe that players would be more attached to their characters if there was no fear of death?  What is your proposal - that permadeath be removed altogether?

Myself, I believe the death system is perfectly balanced as it is, but if I had the ability to alter it to accommodate those who hold this view, the only concession I would make might be to allow soul strands to regenerate, given sufficient time.  One every three months, perhaps.  But again, I think that cheapens death.  Removing permadeath altogether would make death a nonissue.  Half your carried gold and an hour or so of feeling week?  C'est une bagatelle!

As it stands, adventurers have more "life" to them than most, but they know their days are numbered.  Losing that first soul strand is, for most, a harrowing experience - would it be, if it were just another death?  When one's strand count is getting up there (or down there, depending on how you look at things), a character starts to feel their own mortality - a fantastic piece of the immersion that is Layonara.  Characters can sense the Mother's mouth watering for that last strand, and guard it all the more jealously.

How much more significant can the risk of death make a heroic sacrifice?  What kind of nobility would there be in a character crying, "Go!  Run!  I'll hold them!" when facing insurmountable odds if the consequences of their death were simply to feel weak for a few hours?  If Gandalf had known he'd make it out alive (or rise again as Gandalf the White, anyway), would there have been as much poignancy to his stand at the bridge?

When I joined the server, a character had, through Herculean (literally) efforts, won back a harvest of strands from the Mother, and forced Her into temporary vacation.  And let me tell you - Death held no fear.  Cowards would plunge cheerily into battle, again and again, 'gainst insurmountable odds, secure in the knowledge that they were going to come back from the other side none the worse for wear.  Some tried to RP the desire not to die, but far more fought with abandon, since dying held no real consequence.  When strands again began to be cut... oh, the improvement!

As a final point - yes, the loss of beloved characters to the Mother is a tragedy.  A tragedy in-character!  Out of character - what a roleplay opportunity!  Funereal arrangements!  Vengeance against those who slew the fallen!  Eulogies!  Tributes!  For the player of the fallen - you can tie up your character's affairs, (CDTs and the like), and enjoy a privilege that real life does not afford us: watching your own funeral, and seeing how friends and loved ones celebrate your life or mourn your death.  All of this impossible, if Death is relegated to the same severity as a head cold.

Be grateful, I would say, for the leniency of Layonara's death system.  Remember 2nd Ed?  If you die, and are fortunate enough to be resurrected... you lose a point of CON.  Permanently. Start the game with a CON of 12?  You've got 12 resurrections.  12 times you can die.  Ever.  Granted, Layonara is somewhat more lethal than your average pen-and-paper campaign... but the system is much, much more lenient.

So, some dissatisfaction stemming from the loss of a beloved character - this is perfectly understandable.  But to say that it's the "worst system implemented in Layonara" is ridiculous.  It's part of what makes Layonara as good as it is.

[Lynn1020]

I am not against permadeath.. It is how unfair it is.  It all lands in the rolls.  Some have died over a hundred times and lost very few SS.  Then some have permed with around 50 deaths. There was the one pc that was trying to perm and died over 200 times and couldn't loose enough ss to perm.  :\\  I do think there should be a consequences for dying.  Just not sure what.  I liked the idea of xp loss.

Then you have the whole reimbursement situation.  If you go back and look at past ones that were approved you find many that didn't follow the rules  criteria.  So that always brings up "why was theirs approved but this one wasn't."  I'm all for doing away with the reimbursement process then there wouldn't be any worries for favoritism etc.

[jrizz]

What would make it work for you?

Third time posting this solution to your question (it had been asked before):

Some time ago I suggested a change to the system that would create a hope based system instead of a hopelessness based system. Here is my suggestion (mind you it keeps the SS system):


1. Soul strength grows with the PC.
At 4th level you get 4 SS then you earn 1 every 2 levels. That will be a total of 12 by 20th level. Keep SMD at 21st level, but make it 2 or 3 not 5 and have the earning go to one every three or four levels after 21. This method keeps the SS loss system as is and still keeps your PC afraid of death. But there will no longer be the hopelessness of "only one SS left". There will always be the hope that you can make it to the next time you can earn one. Also this method shows that the PC grows in soul strength as she gains in experience instead of getting weaker in soul.

The particulars should be debated but the framework is one based on hope not hopelessness.

[Blackguy]

Ive heard all the arguments for it before, and Ive know that there are some passionate people for the system, but I simply dont agree with that.

And the story about Athus that made the Mother go on vacation have no effect on me. If you really want to limit people going and doing something they are not meant to do, then use a XP penalty system instead. That'll make people think twice about their actions, XP hit alot harder, cause its something your effected by everyday when you play.

But I still think the deathsystem is the worst thing about Layonara, period.

[Acacea]

Third time posting this solution to your question (it had been asked before):

That's great that you've posted before, but it is not a "solution to the question." It is a suggestion, just as stragen's was. If you feel you have already contributed to the question, then there is no need to feel like you are being repeatedly addressed for the same thing...you're not. There are others that are very opinionated on this subject.

I personally disagree with the suggestion for multiple reasons and don't think it makes a lot of sense either (the whole weaker/stronger in soul thing is not actually even applicable), but that is just me. In either case though, it is still a suggestion from one person, and not the most vocal here. Blackguy for example I don't think is going to ever have one, because he is never going to like perming and will always complain about it given the opportunity . We agree to disagree... I prefer perming, you're never going to like it. Noted! But Lynn for example hates not necessarily the concept of permadeath but the perceived unfairness of its implementation. XP loss is not permadeath, so while it appeals to her it is not the same.

Since I was not clear, I don't personally think the odds are good that any one of us will suddenly come up with this fantastic system that solves all our problems and can be sold to the team, especially without knowing anything about their other systems. More importantly, I feel a great number of the issues with the current system are tied up with the constraints of NWN and may be a non-issue in the future. But there is a lot of angst and frustration tied up with it from people who are good people to have here and who are the sort of players I personally am interested in keeping around in the future, too. twidget for example said he'd never play on another server with permadeath - will not the MMO have it in some form? I know I prefer it... is that a final statement, or could it work with the things that are the most frustrating cut out of the picture?