DTs

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I thought I had explained why the roll happens when it does, but reading the above I guess I was not

So: Raise Dead or Resurrection will never have any influence on the Save vs. Soul Mother roll. A Soul Strand has a chance of snapping at the time of death, not at the time of raising/resurrecting/respawning so Raise Dead, Resurrection or Respawn is not in he picture yet at that time.

I am too much out of the mechanics of the spells to comment on the reflections, diamonds etc.

Then... Honestly, what's the point of having two different spells that bring someone back to life? The differences between their effects is fairly minimal.

[EdTheKet]

Then... Honestly, what's the point of having two different spells that bring someone back to life? The differences between their effects is fairly minimal.

Ask TSR, Wizards of the Coast, or Bioware, or something

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Ask TSR, Wizards of the Coast, or Bioware, or something

Well, in D&D, the difference between the spells was fairly distinct... And there was an additional spell, True Resurrection.

Then again, there was level loss when you came back from the dead.

[lonnarin]

What exactly are undead on that token?  Strandless souls that never got collected?  Stranded souls that had their body defiled too much to reoccupy, but technically didn't qualify for the Soul Mother or Harvester to collect them?  Soulless quasi-magical shadows that are simply necromantic imprints of a former consciousness?  When we see a ghost of somebody, is that their soul, or is it just a soulless magical construct while the real soul is resting peacefully in the afterlife?

Do Permadead PCs have a chance of returning as revenants?  How does defiling somebody's remains after they had been resting peacefully result in an angry ghost of the person?  Take Krandor and Hlint Graveyards for example...

Also, it has been stated that Raise Dead and Resurrection have no chance in influencing the Soul Strand loss, and therefore reversing final death itself.  if that is the case, why ever bother raising or resurrecting an NPC on a quest?  If they're just laying there face down on the ground, then obviously they either never bound at all and are dead for good, just lost their last strand and there's nothing we can do about it, or they are faking it and are too lazy to respawn and jog back from the bindstone.

I've been on plenty of quests where an NPC died and had to be resurrected or raised back from the dead, so the precident is there in history.

[Gulnyr]

Also, it has been stated that Raise Dead and Resurrection have no chance in influencing the Soul Strand loss, and therefore reversing final death itself.  if that is the case, why ever bother raising or resurrecting an NPC on a quest?  If they're just laying there face down on the ground, then obviously they either never bound at all and are dead for good, just lost their last strand and there's nothing we can do about it, or they are faking it and are too lazy to respawn and jog back from the bindstone.

I've been on plenty of quests where an NPC died and had to be resurrected or raised back from the dead, so the precident is there in history.

Dying doesn't automatically result in a cut strand, either for bound PCs or unbound NPCs.  Just as a PC can die with ten strands, not lose one and be raised with the same ten intact, so too can an unbound NPC die, not lose her single strand, and be raised again with that one strand intact.

[jrizz]

Ok so to put some of these side tracks in summary:

Yes when you die you are dead and that is why we have clerics that can cast RD and R and we have the bindstones that can bring you back if you don't have a cleric around. So we come back to the SS issue. Every time you die on the moment of death you are attacked, more like a single theft attempt is made to remove (or cut or whatever the semantics are) a strand that holds your soul in your body. There are no defenses against this (beside the unrealistic "dont die" statements) and the higher level you are the more susceptible you are to the attack. It has been explained in this thread that is due to your soul being more attractive. It has also been explained that without the bindstones your first death would be your last death. These raise a bunch of questions, like.

- Why are more powerful souls more attractive? and if that is the case what are they being collected for?
- If people are able to gain a stronger hold on their souls (SMD) why cant there be a defense aganst SS harvesting?
- Why doesn't every person (NPCs I mean) in the world bind to the bindstones? Then every person would have ten lives. If that is not possible why do the bindstones only work for adventures? Are they the measure of who can be an adventurer?
- If you are not bound, that renders the clerical spells RD and R useless. Why is that? How are the bindstones connected to the gods that grant those spells?

From my PCs point of view the number one threat in the world is the SM. The heros of the world meddle and battle with all kinds of powerful beings like dragons, gods, demi-gods, powerful outsiders, and more. Yet most wont even consider messing with the SM. They are content to be the fields of harvest for her.

Also how many PC's have permed? Less then 100? Less then 50? In the time I have been here (more then 3 years) it cant have been more then 20 or 25 at most. Would it be so bad that those 20 or 25 were still here and at higher levels? What does the permadeath system really do? There are plenty of ways to make PCs fear death. Why have one that removes PCs from the game? Is it really only the lucky that get to be higher level and survive? And if it is the case that only the lucky survive why do they deserve any respect at all as it is totally random that they are still alive?

There are many people that play and enjoy this world that feel the current death system is flawed. The attempts to explain how the death system fits into the RP of the world never really hit the mark.

The current death system does not promote RP it stalls it, kills fun sessions, removes well liked PCs from the game, and generally leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths. It is hard for people that have not had a PC perm to really understand the impact that this system has on players so we go around and around in this debate. I have had a PC perm and I have a PC with 11 lost SS (6 lost to technical issues). In all the time I have been playing I have had only one SS refunded. I know how it feels to lose a PC that you have worked on for a long time I know how it feels to have a PC that you really love to play be near death. I dont play in a reckless manner. I have been playing my current PC for more then 2 years. I have not power leveled him he is not a power build and so I have to live with the inevitable death that will come to him. I say this sucks and it is not fair.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Death is an inevitable reality. I'd be all for a system that killed people due to old age, so long as it was equally enforced across the board (and perhaps there were another perk or two for the shorter-lived races).

I'm fairly fond of the current death system. I don't like the gold cut (as I think it should either take EVERYTHING you have away from you that isn't bound to you somehow, or take nothing at all), but the SS system itself seems great. What I have issues with is the fact that, despite how POWERFUL magic is, in this world, there is nothing to address the single greatest threat to adventurers: Strand Loss.

You could say that, as the Mother has power like unto a goddess (and probably more power than a few goddesses), there's no mortal magic to defend against her power... But even if Pyrtechon himself tossed a ball of godly fire at someone, an Elemental Shield would help a little... (Though probably not NEARLY enough.)

[jan]

I cant say i disagree much with the sentiments you express in the last part of your post jrizz , but as i see it death is as much part off your characters life as it is in rl .

I haven't lost a character myself yet , but are close , and on one side it scares the jibbers out of me but on the other it gives a more realistic feel then any other world could .

The rp i have had on lost love ones was probably the best there was , since it combines rl with the profound loss you experience in character .

Undying characters in my eyes can never call forth the level of emotions that characters that can and will permanently die do .

[jrizz]

Death is an inevitable reality in real life this is a game and is played for fun, losing a PC that you have worked on for a long time is not fun. We have rules in place to ensure that we all can have fun without interfering with other peoples fun the death system has nothing to do with that. It is simply just not fun.

It is hard for anyone to make a judgement on a system if you have not fully experienced all of the aspects of the system?

I have had a PC perm and I have a PC with 11 lost SS (6 lost to technical issues). In all the time I have been playing I have had only one SS refunded. I know how it feels to lose a PC that you have worked on for a long time I know how it feels to have a PC that you really love to play be near death. I dont play in a reckless manner. I have been playing my current PC for more then 2 years. I have not power leveled him he is not a power build and so I have to live with the inevitable death that will come to him. I say this sucks and it is not fair.

[jrizz]

Undying characters in my eyes can never call forth the level of emotions that characters that can and will permanently die do .

On this I agree. But to have a death system that is so random is just not right. The long lived high level PCs we have are there by pure luck (and some number of returned SS). All PCs get killed in the same way, battle of some kind. But some get harvested and some dont and when the death is caused by a technical issue some get refunds and some dont. It is almost totally random if your PC gets to survive or not.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Losing sometimes is an inevitable reality of life. In combat, sometimes you lose. This isn't fun for most people. Would you suggest removing all chance of failure from the game, as well?

I'm fully prepared for Pyyran to perm; heck, even he's ready to die. That's part of life, and part of the game. Some things are less enjoyable, but it's a role-playing game. You play the role of a living, breathing person, in this little world. That living, breathing person will one day stop breathing. He knows it, we know it, and that's just a part of life.

Working hard for a measly twenty-five True isn't fun, either, apart from the enjoyment one gets from playing the character's role. But do we bequeath everyone with all the money they need? No.

Hardship is part of life, both real and imagined. These characters have to face death in their world - why should we just ignore this fact? They will die, eventually.

It's nice enough on most that characters don't take aging penalties - there are a few characters right now who should be very, very dead, from age alone.

Edit: It is most assuredly not random, whether one's character survives or not. And I dislike the implication that the reimbursement system is equally random - particularly coming from a GM. One's survival relies upon one's wit and skill... There is always a risk of unforseen things happening - in life, you can get hit by a car, no save. In the game, you might crash out and lose a Strand. Bad things happen. It's a blessing that SOME of those bad things, that aren't our own faults, can be reimbursed, in the proper situation.

[jan]

While i can and do understand what you are saying , i don't fully agree .

When i started playing here i was well aware that there was a permadeath system and accepted that when i applied with a character submission and actually started playing , just like i accepted all the other rules .

It is not intentionally that the system is flawed , it's mechanically .

I am sure the team has done everything they can to get as-many flaws out as they could , but if they cant fix it further then it is what we all have to work with .

No , i don't think it is fair to have random rolls decide if you lose a ss or not since in my eyes that makes it a roll of luck .

But having a system that allows to earn more ss's would probably in a way mean that you get even more fond off your character and will make the loss even worse if it happens in it end .

[Acacea]

Yep, long reply, but a long list, too.

A lot of the statements listed seem to be again assumptions or misinterpretations based on things said earlier in the thread. For that matter, there are also questions which no one is required to know the answer to. "What are they used for?" for example, is something nobody really has any business knowing, unless they want to presume knowledge of what the Soul Mother is doing on her lunch breaks... there is actually a surprising amount of information and theories floating around on the Soul Mother in-game already, so I don't really see why her specifics are important knowledge to us as players of characters, or even GMs of NPCs that do not and cannot know more.

As has been stated at least twice, though perhaps not in this thread, everyone in the world is not bound for a few reasons, the largest being that to do so is to risk death. There is "something" about PCs and certain NPCs that allow them to bind, but there is a chance that you die and that's that. The vast majority of the world is not going to risk the real death for "sewing needle accident insurance." More than that, the bindstones were inert for god knows how long, and became active again during the war with Bloodstone. Perhaps they woke up by themselves, or the gods woke them, or Ozlo. That doesn't matter so much as the fact that they were sleeping. Then there was the age of the Dragoncalled. The bindable (not so fancy a name, eh?) were Summoned by Ozlo for the war against Bloodstone.

Ozlo dies. No more big dragon to call the ones that can bind and tell them plainly to do so.

As mentioned in another thread, some NPCs are bound. Established NPCs, both good and evil, really have no business trying - to do so is to risk all that they have gained. I've seen an NPC perm before...

NPCs can be raised if they aren't bound. I don't think it was stated anywhere by Ed that this was not the case, but was rather something that was said for him later in response to something he said. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation. He said that if you are not bound, your first death is your last death. Certainly. My monk is, RPwise, not bound to any bindstone, and I will never respawn with her. If there is an allied cleric present, they may choose to raise her, and I may choose to continue - but she will never live again through the bindstones. Many NPCs have been raised on quests, more than likely even Ed's. I seriously doubt that is suddenly an impossibility. If it has been decided that that should be the case, I very strongly request that it be reconsidered on the grounds of being silly.

Regarding the difference between raise and res, we also used to be able to use Resurrect after a much longer time than Raise Dead, and with things in far worse condition, and did so on several quests. However, they have since brought the hammer down on the time limit and now force all raises to be within three days regardless of spell level.

Regarding age-killing characters, I am not really a fan of forced aging penalties and deaths because of how fast game time is, and prefer allowing characters to choose how hard they age their characters and if they let them die. There have been at least 2 IC explanations for how hard some are pushed, namely the heavy toll on the soul that the bindstones cause, while bodies are constantly knit back together, and the constant exposure to positive energy from healing spells making physical appearance of aging loopy. I'm fine with that as long as no one claims to be 45 when there are 99. The numbers don't lie, but it's okay if you're not wearing diapers.

As far as jrizz' PC thinking little of PCs who mess with dragons instead of the soul mother - if he bothered to ask around IG a bit or questioned instead of ripping down warnings or offers of information, he might find out why that is the case.

Regarding people playing cautiously, I actually beg to differ. Yeah, people on their last strand or who have permed a character before tend to become paranoid, but in general anyone who is in no particular danger gambles constantly with their character's lives. Hey, death magic, no cleric, 90% chance of making the save, you game? What the heck. New areas, but only 4 people, feeling lucky? What the heck, live a little.

Part of the whole fun of the game is that gamble, and we rely pretty heavily on it through the lower levels of soloing griffons and other such silliness. I agree with part of the statements made earlier in the thread - there is no particular discouragement of death, just a vaguely distant threat of permadeath for most. Each individual death is just a wait or a stone away from continuing, and hardly a blow worth worrying about.

If you listen to the toothless old timers yap about the old days and how they had to walk barefoot in the snow uphill both ways (), it is pretty obvious that most of them bent over backwards to avoid every single death - forget permadeath, Gotak was the first and only perm in the system. Death itself sucked. You don't hear perm/strand stories, you hear "I lost 1million xp in one night" stories. And being a player that was a bit caught between generations of players, I have run around with very different groups of people. The vets of the old system were crazy paranoid careful, and it is from that group of people that you often get the unhelpful "don't die" sentiments from. They're serious, too.

((Edit: The comments referring to the previous death system were not intended to be more of the same, "you should hav seen it under the old system" (I didn't, anyway), but rather a note on how much more cautious its veterans have seemed when I played with them. If anything, the old system was pre-favored equipment and pre-one step alignments for clerics, etc, and in general a lot looser on what you could do with builds, so death count need not apply in the equation. A whole different world, as well. So again... I was merely talking about player mindsets and levels of caution per individual deaths vs final deaths.))

The randomness has been debated on, who knows if it will stay in the next version. It has been stated that in NWN it was actually to even the playing field a bit rather than skew it - it is true that permadeath breeds characters built for survival rather than RP, but with the rolls, even a purely RP character totally stacked against combat has a chance of making it, while a calculated machine who dies 10 times in 40 levels has a chance of failing. This is not a statement in favor or against its current explanation, merely part of the reasoning that was given for it.

What is the purpose of this rant? The constructive part? Hate the system, yes, unfair, okay, random, sure, hasn't this all been said before? It's not going to be put to a vote nor designed by committee. They read, they listen, things may or may not - I'm betting on not but you never know - change in NWN, but it is unlikely we will have the same system and sets of issues in the next version. Different engine, different gameplay, different system, different levels, different everything. There are far more factors to consider than whether lag deaths have totally killed the concept of permadeath for some. No one is claiming that the NWN implementation is perfect. It's not. One of the biggest issues I have seen that sour people on the concept is the technical issues spoiling the potential for roleplay. I have no doubt that this will be a big deal to address in the future version. Right now they work with what they've got.

On another note, I was considering this morning the issue of characters who perm while bound on another server... do they get booted right away, to the death void of the next server? I was just wondering because it seemed like it might be a bit sudden and take away from the whole drama of the moment, and this feeling applies even if you hang around but die quickly.

Maybe if a) hostiles could start thinning out during a battle in which a PC perms, until all have either been killed or fled after a bit, certain exceptions apply of course, and b) some kind of script could be present that essentially disabled regen and healings and such on a character and left them at 1hp for 5 minutes for them to RP the death if they so choose. Trades could be disabled and so on. Yes, they would have gone from -142 hp to 1 hp magically, but so what? If they choose to have a miraculous bit of consciousness left in them for a few minutes to say their goodbyes, there seems no harm in that. It is supposed to be about roleplay, after all. Obviously this is probably not a good thought for NWN, but I think the concept at least is worth considering to make sure it is not quite so...one-shotted, in some cases.  It wouldn't help much in the event of a party wipe, but then not much does.

[EdTheKet]

You people write a lot of text!
I'll try to respond to what seem to be the most important points. Here we go:

What exactly are undead on that token? Strandless souls that never got collected? Stranded souls that had their body defiled too much to reoccupy, but technically didn't qualify for the Soul Mother or Harvester to collect them? Soulless quasi-magical shadows that are simply necromantic imprints of a former consciousness? When we see a ghost of somebody, is that their soul, or is it just a soulless magical construct while the real soul is resting peacefully in the afterlife?

Technically, undead have no soul anymore. Granted, liches do, but they're kind of the exception with their soul in a phylactery. And please don't ask me how that works soul strand wise as I haven't finalized that yet Not everything from D&D can be easily fitted into our next incarnation, and as a consequence, not everything will. Not saying that liches won't be or will be, but they're the odd one out. Anyway, I digress.

- Why are more powerful souls more attractive? and if that is the case what are they being collected for?

There are only two people on this planet who know why. That's Leanthar and myself, so this question will not be answered, sorry for the inconvenience

- If people are able to gain a stronger hold on their souls (SMD) why cant there be a defense aganst SS harvesting?

Because you're dead at the moment of the SS snap. Being dead, you can't really do anything.

- Why doesn't every person (NPCs I mean) in the world bind to the bindstones?

I think I answered this earlier in the thread? Because there's a risk involved in the initial bind.

If that is not possible why do the bindstones only work for adventures?

I answered this already as well, they don't only work for adventurers.

Are they the measure of who can be an adventurer?

As bindstones do not only work for adventurers, they don't measure who can or can not be.

- If you are not bound, that renders the clerical spells RD and R useless. Why is that?

I never said that I believe.

How are the bindstones connected to the gods that grant those spells?

I will not disclose any inner workings of the bindstones, nor why they were dormant, nor why they suddenly were active again, nor their purpose.

For that matter, there are also questions which no one is required to know the answer to. "What are they used for?" for example, is something nobody really has any business knowing, unless they want to presume knowledge of what the Soul Mother is doing on her lunch breaks... there is actually a surprising amount of information and theories floating around on the Soul Mother in-game already, so I don't really see why her specifics are important knowledge to us as players of characters, or even GMs of NPCs that do not and cannot know more.

Correct. There are theories in game and that's all fine. There are only two in the know, Leanthar and myself, and that will remain that way.

Then there was the age of the Dragoncalled. The bindable (not so fancy a name, eh?) were Summoned by Ozlo for the war against Bloodstone.

Ozlo dies. No more big dragon to call the ones that can bind and tell them plainly to do so.

And then you have to wonder... Ozlo told people to bind. That way people became aware that the bindstones worked. It is not mentioned anywhere that only the Dragoncalled could bind. Only that all Dragoncalled had the ability to. (Don't ask why, as mentioned, I will not answer).

Many NPCs have been raised on quests, more than likely even Ed's.

No, that has never happened on my quests. And it most likely never will. If somebody kills an (important) NPC on my quests, you don't get a second shot. Actions have consequences, and you will have to deal with them. You won't be getting "Oh we killed him, now let's resurrect him and question him" on my quests. That's too easy. Digressing again

[Acacea]

Well, I wasn't really implying that all NPCs can be raised. A lot of them simply don't want to, and you can't raise an unwilling person except as undead. We get that a lot in quests. I don't think I've ever been on a quest where we intentionally or unintentionally killed an important NPC and just tossed a prayer down to pick 'em back up. Just your typical "those fiends! What have the pygmies done to this woman! Let us call her back, Toran and spirit willing," types where you just do a good deed and drop her low HP butt back in town sorts.

[twidget658]

From what I have seen and read...this thread is pointless. The majority want a change, a very few like it, the rest don't want to comment due to 'disagreeing with the team', the ones that run it are NOT changing it no matter what suggestions are made...so what is the use, really?
 
 All the great suggestions, all the typing, all the ideas, all the 'Thanks', is only a way to make us feel better. Nothing is going to change. This is just one of those threads I have grown tired of seeing pop up.
 
 Thanks to the people that poured their brains into it and tried to present an improvement.

[Marswipp]

From what I have seen and read...this thread is pointless. The majority want a change, a very few like it, the rest don't want to comment due to 'disagreeing with the team', the ones that run it are NOT changing it no matter what suggestions are made...so what is the use, really?
 
 All the great suggestions, all the typing, all the ideas, all the 'Thanks', is only a way to make us feel better. Nothing is going to change. This is just one of those threads I have grown tired of seeing pop up.
 
 Thanks to the people that poured their brains into it and tried to present an improvement.

If I read that correctly, it's a winded request to lock the thread.

I can also see where everyone's coming from.

[Gulnyr]

Discussions like these are never pointless.  They may not result in changes, but they do help correct misconceptions and improve understanding of the world's background.  I don't know about anyone else, but I learned things from this thread.  Also, to me personally, they show that people care about Layonara; we all have different ideas of what may be best so there is a lot of disagreement, but we care, which is excellent.

In the end, this isn't an equal club where all of our votes carry the same weight or a pure democracy where the majority rules.  We can all express our opinions and offer suggestions, but we, the players, can really only vote with our participation and support.  The bosses make the decisions on how they want their world to be, and our opinions and suggestions may not always fit into the grand scheme or be worth the effort.

[Nehetsrev]

From what I have seen and read...this thread is pointless. The majority want a change, a very few like it, the rest don't want to comment due to 'disagreeing with the team', the ones that run it are NOT changing it no matter what suggestions are made...so what is the use, really?
 
 All the great suggestions, all the typing, all the ideas, all the 'Thanks', is only a way to make us feel better. Nothing is going to change. This is just one of those threads I have grown tired of seeing pop up.
 
 Thanks to the people that poured their brains into it and tried to present an improvement.

In all actuallity, the majority is -silent-.  Only a few from the total server population are posting thier displeasure with the current system.  I, for one, like the current system just fine the way it is (except maybe the idea to make the number of SS's a character has random and un-known to the player).  Having permed one character, and being close to perming a second, I can honestly say I've experienced the loss myself.  I've lived through it just fine.  I do admit to having occasional moments when I reminesce about the character that permed and wish I could still be playing her, but only because her personality was just such a fun one to play, and because of all my characters so far, she's the one that's impacted the world the most (gnolls taking the place of the ogres in the Haven Mines was very much the results of her efforts getting the ogres to move out peacefully.  Not that thanks aren't due to other characters who helped fight the gnoll invasion near the end of those efforts).  Yet, Melanna's final death was a foolish one.  She'd gotten emotional and did something truly stupid.  Would I change it?  No.  I'm happy with the outcome.  Her death invoked an emotional response in myself, and many of the players of the characters she associated with.  Heck, even the friendly ogre, Glurgle, tried to make it to her funeral.

One thing her life, and death did highlight to me, is that if you put a lot into your character, and RP -all the time, every moment- you can not only enjoy the game to it's fullest, but make a big impact on the world, without being an epic level character.

Anyhow, the system, at least in my own opinion, is a good one.  I won't presume to speak for everyone who is being silent.  I won't assume one way or the other whether they favor the current system or hate it.  My point is, not everyone, and quite possibly not the majority of players, dislikes the current system.

[twidget658]

Discussions like these are never pointless. They may not result in changes, but they do help correct misconceptions and improve understanding of the world's background. I don't know about anyone else, but I learned things from this thread. Also, to me personally, they show that people care about Layonara; we all have different ideas of what may be best so there is a lot of disagreement, but we care, which is excellent.
 
 In the end, this isn't an equal club where all of our votes carry the same weight or a pure democracy where the majority rules. We can all express our opinions and offer suggestions, but we, the players, can really only vote with our participation and support. The bosses make the decisions on how they want their world to be, and our opinions and suggestions may not always fit into the grand scheme or be worth the effort.

 
 Yep, I agree. But when people are told to 'stop whining and start making recommendations' with false hopes that something may actually change, that is where is crosses the line from 'community cares' to 'lead by a carrot'.