DTs

[Gulnyr]

Okay, I've gone through the thread looking for the 'false hope' parts, the 'not in accordance with established lore' parts, and the 'too much effort' parts.  Some things are hard to classify.  This is what I found (with posts directly linked), without any discussion of merits or problems, only briefly describing the system suggested or comment made and the category I placed it in, and only including one instance rather than each post of the discussion unless significant changes or additions were made:

[post=939792]Jrizz #1[/post]:  This one includes two options.  The first is strengthening of souls, which has been said to be out of line with established lore, and the second is loss of significant play time (24 real life hours), which was said to be bad for business.

[post=939932]Weeblie #1[/post]:  I seem to have missed this one before, so I'm glad I read back through.  It involves making the death penalty to stats last a full week rather than have any permanent death system in order to maintain the fear of death.  I'm not sure how much work that would take, so maybe a 'lots of effort' option.

[post=940052]Ycleption #1[/post]:  Add an automatic XP penalty for each death, plus a standard, finite number of deaths - not strand loss, but deaths - before a character permanently dies.  I'm classifying this one as 'too much effort' because there are several characters with SMD that would want a new feat, or the feat would have to be altered to match the new system.

[post=940062]Dorganath #1[/post]:  This one is not an idea but a statement that Soul Strands will remain a part of the world.  No category, unless any reader wishes to count that as 'false hope' in his own list.

[post=940382]Osxmallard #1[/post]:  Hide SS totals and loss from everyone but the database manager.  Then no one would know how many strands anyone has, and final death would be a surprise.  'Other' - it doesn't fit a category listed above.

[post=941712]Stragen #1[/post]:  A permadeath system allowing corpse hauling, temple raising at an undefined cost, forced respawn after two days, ten respawns maximum per character (where respawns replace soul strands), and a lengthened negative hit point scale.  'Lore' and 'Effort.'

[post=973282]Dorganath #2[/post]:  Another statement.  Uncertainty about the possibility of a system that will please everyone in NWN while maintaining the intent of the soul strand/permadeath system.  No category.

[post=973392]Dorganath #3[/post]:  There may be no changes simply because of manpower issues, and inaction should not be taken as apathy or disagreement.  There is more to consider than popularity of the systems proposed.  Solutions must "be viable and consistent with intent."  No category (it isn't 'false hope', rather 'you have to think of something that fits and doesn't take too much effort to implement').

[post=973492]Darkstorme #1[/post]:  Every three real months, any character with fewer than ten soul strands would recover one.  The recovery countdown would begin at the point of the most recent loss, the recovery would never push the total above ten soul strands (making SMD a one-shot booster of five instant strands), and there would be no player-initiated reimbursement requests; only DMs could request a character's SS be returned.  'Lore,' as regrowing of soul strands seems inconsistent with established lore.

[post=974622]Makashi #1[/post]:  Not exactly a suggestion, but included for completeness.  A system of body-hauling with a 'limbo' area where dead folks can hang out.  'Effort.'

[post=974652]Lalaith #1[/post]:  Body-hauling plus the possibility of strand loss only on respawn, rather than on death.  'Effort' for the first, 'lore' for the second.

[post=976362]Stephen #1[/post]:  Make the chance of strand loss higher by 1% per each ten deaths.  'Other.'

[post=979652]Stephen #2[/post]:  Under a system of strand loss on respawn rather than death, have Raise Dead and Resurrect spells reduce the chance to 50% and 25% normal, respectively.  'Lore.'

[post=979952]Jrizz #2[/post]:  A resubmission of Jrizz #1 with the text changed from soul strengthening with time to soul strand strengthening with time.  It also includes the 24 hours out of game suggestion.  Either 'lore' or 'other'.  

[post=980702]Lonnarin #1[/post]:  Two suggestions.  One alters Resurrect to eliminate the chance of strand loss, and the other alters Raise Dead and Resurrect to reduce the percent chance by some defined amount.  Each seems to function on the use of the spell after a roll has already been made at character death ([post=980752]Clarifying post[/post]).  'Effort' (spells have to be changed), and 'lore' (see Ed #1 below).

[post=980772]Ed #1[/post]:  Statement.  Spells cannot affect strand loss.

So, if I have read and understood correctly (which I may not have, given the late hour), of the proposals presented, none so far have had a combination of fitting with established lore and being easy enough to implement to be accepted.  No team member has specifically stated that no idea will ever be good enough, though they have been clear on what among proposed ideas will not work.  There is hope for a different system, though it may be less hope and/or harder work than some might like.  As long as this thread is, there don't seem to be very many actual proposals in it.  Maybe there are better ones to come.  And [post=973392]read this again[/post], just to be safe.

[EdTheKet]

But when people are told to 'stop whining and start making recommendations' with false hopes that something may actually change, that is where is crosses the line from 'community cares' to 'lead by a carrot'.

By which you seem to be implying that (for example) my request on getting proposals with pros and cons would be entirely pointless and that I only did that to keep the community busy. That is not correct.

In addition, if my interpretation of your statement is correct, I do not think it's a very nice thing to say or imply.

Everyone is free to disagree and discuss, as long as things remain civil and constructive. So far, I thought this thread was doing pretty good for such a controversial subject, but if it derails, I will simply stop reading it or posting replies as there is plenty of other Layonara work around.

(Please don't take this as a thread killer post BTW)

[Drizzlin]

I always felt there should be no soul strands lost from level 9 and below. After that it is a 10% chance for all PCs level 10-40.

[Pen N Popper]

I thought we were talking about the death system so that it could be adjusted for the MMO if a good idea came along.  It seems unreasonable to expect that anything in the Layo version will change.  Anything that does change should be viewed as an unexpected gift.

Ideas are good to have (the Layo deities know that I have had my share), but it's best to get over expectations that they will be implemented.  Think of them more like planting a seed in the minds of the folks on the other side of the curtain.  Sometimes you get lucky and they like it and *poof* a gift.

[EdTheKet]

I thought we were talking about the death system so that it could be adjusted for the MMO if a good idea came along.

That is at least my main interest.

[Eight-Bit]

A little bird gave me this idea, moments before I pureed it in my blender.

Random chance is something that is never going to be fair, and a system that is unfair promotes negativity and often times rage over the impending loss of a character.

My idea is stolen from not only a bird, but several video game concepts used in the past to a great effect. Instead of a dice roll let the players have a chance to prevent the loss of a soul strand. After death, a corpse of the player should be created where they kicked it, and their spirit is taken to some kind of limbo where they are hunted by gatherers geared towards their level range, or however CR will be determined in the MMO. After a time limit, death of the gatherer, escape, or having been raised the player will be back in their body.

The player then has the chance to evade or do whatever they wish to the gatherers. I'm not saying this is a perfect idea, but hey, it's out there and I think it's better than a barely random and horribly frustrating dice roll.

[Pen N Popper]

A crazy idea off of eight-bit's:  How about a LORE jeopardy-like quiz game?  If you're part of the world and know the info, then you get a better chance at avoiding death.

[Eight-Bit]

A crazy idea off of eight-bit's:  How about a LORE jeopardy-like quiz game?  If you're part of the world and know the info, then you get a better chance at avoiding death.

Anything is better than a dice roll, my friend, anything!

[Gulnyr]

I feel like I've missed the point and I ask for clarification, please.  What, specifically, is unfair about random numbers or random chance?  

I'm confused because, as a dice-based game, the entire system is based on a bunch of random rolls.  Is everything unfair?

[EdTheKet]

I'm confused because, as a dice-based game, the entire system is based on a bunch of random rolls. Is everything unfair?

And that is a very fair question

[ycleption]

I feel like I've missed the point and I ask for clarification, please.  What, specifically, is unfair about random numbers or random chance?  

I'm confused because, as a dice-based game, the entire system is based on a bunch of random rolls.  Is everything unfair?

Almost all dice rolls in the game are expressions of what we are doing with a character, and if we want a better chance for a specific kind of roll, we can put points into a skill or an ability, take feats, etc.

The SS roll, on the other hand, is just random. Not an expression about the character's skills, ability, talents, plus a bit of chance, but just a pure random roll.
Other types of random rolls don't have nearly the same consequences as an SS roll... every once in a while, you may be faced with a roll on a quest with huge consequences, but other than that, very few times in the game will you be faced with a purely random chance that has the same potential.
Finally, most (except for some little used skills) other rolls that a character makes, will be rolled so many times over the course of a character's life that things even out a bit more. With the relatively few number of deaths a character can have, the likelihood that some characters will perm after a few deaths is pretty high, and that more than anything else, is what seems unfair to many.

[EdTheKet]

Well, the crafting rolls are random. Granted, you've got more chance to succeed if your level in a craft increases, and more chance to fail if your level increases for SS snapping, but the idea is the same.

[Gulnyr]

Okay, let me make sure I understand.

Almost all dice rolls in the game are expressions of what we are doing with a character, and if we want a better chance for a specific kind of roll, we can put points into a skill or an ability, take feats, etc.

The SS roll, on the other hand, is just random. Not an expression about the character's skills, ability, talents, plus a bit of chance, but just a pure random roll.

Yes, we place skill points and choose feats where we want our characters to excel.  Some things are not possible for our characters, though, no matter what.  With the understanding that soul strand loss is, from what I understand, an instantaneous event caused by the strain of the soul leaving the body at the moment of death, what are our characters supposed to do to stop it?  What skill is that?  What can characters do when they are dead to affect anything, even over time, much less an instant event?  It seems the only fair ways to handle strand loss in accordance with the current established lore are automatic strand loss on every death (and I'm not sure that is in accordance with lore) or random chance for loss.  "Nothing happens" was already ruled out earlier in the thread (since soul strands are staying) else that would also be a fair method, too.

Other types of random rolls don't have nearly the same consequences as an SS roll... every once in a while, you may be faced with a roll on a quest with huge consequences, but other than that, very few times in the game will you be faced with a purely random chance that has the same potential.

The nature of the consequences has nothing to do with whether or not something is fair.  Some things are simply beyond what our characters can influence.  That isn't unfair but realistic.  We don't play tiny omnipotent gods, after all.

Finally, most (except for some little used skills) other rolls that a character makes, will be rolled so many times over the course of a character's life that things even out a bit more.

I agree, the more commonly rolled checks average out over time.  Luckily, soul strand checks don't.  Disregarding SMD, every character can lose ten strands before perming.  It could take only ten deaths to accomplish that, but it is more likely that a character will die fifty or one hundred or even more times before losing all her strands.  If it takes fifty deaths to lose ten strands, that is a ratio of four to one in favor of the positive side of the event, not even at all, thankfully, but seriously in favor of the character.  It's even more biased toward the character as the number of total deaths increases.  It could be said to be unfair in the character's favor.

With the relatively few number of deaths a character can have, the likelihood that some characters will perm after a few deaths is pretty high, and that more than anything else, is what seems unfair to many.

This doesn't sound like a question of fairness but one of luck.  Unfortunate, yes.  Unfair, no.  Everyone had an equal chance (fair), but it went badly for some (unlucky).

Have my responses addressed what you are saying, or have I misunderstood?

[Acacea]

There is a difference between being in the bounds of character control, and being fair. "Out of player hands" can feel unfair, but I think it is a separate issue from actually being unfair. If anything, moving to say, a lore quiz to decide if you lose a strand seems extremely unfair...towards a certain % of the population. My PC would probably be fine. A dwarven battle rager might not. Or should it be meta-gaming based? Likewise, something that involves physical combat, a bashier solution that inspired the suggested alteration of the lore-thing in the first place...because defeating/evading hostiles was deemed to be geared towards the wrong mindset.

Both of these suggestions seem to have merit in, say, the categories of "player entertainment: make death more interesting" and "player control: we don't like having only chance determine our failures, it sucks like being taken out of a boss fight by a stupid fear spell," but not necessarily fairness. If anything, the current one is actually a bit hard to beat in that... it is impartial, builds are irrelevant, RP builds can succeed or fail, powerbuilds may succeed or fail, terrible characters with high death counts have a shot, survivors with few can die... it is straight up across the board, the only discrepancy being the return system.

I am not posting in its favor, per se, as I think the problems addressed in some of the solutions above are certainly worth looking at. I'm just not sure finding something that is more "fair" is going to be very easy. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying. There are just a lot of factors to consider.

Regarding the statements of being told to stop whining and help out or whatever, and the giving of false hope, I'm sorry if that's how it comes out, but I think the current system is flawed because of a variety of circumstances that are not so easily addressed as with "IT SUCKS! CHANGE IT!" sentiments, especially when it is hard to iron down ways to efficiently and fairly do so in our current version. The best hopes always seem to me to be identifying the basic foundations of problems with a current system, and ways it could be altered to address them... by seeing a variety of them, you get different views of the same basic problems, and different angles that would approach them. The only "false hope" given is when campaigns begin and polls spring up and a lot of hype is given on one side or the other, turning posts into things sounding like politicians up for re-election.

I don't know if we can make change, and I never claimed to. I do believe that there is great value in isolating specific issues and finding ways that either contribute to the current method, which seems to be favored at the moment by the team, or completely new systems which attempt to address them all as well...while staying in established lore. I have simply found it easier for me to just stick with the current one and tweak/add on, as I don't think I could come up with a whole new system that addressed all the needed factors of the team, be assured of keeping in the bounds of lore I do not even know, make it entertaining to players, and be objective and unbiased enough to make it fair even if that means it is not the favorite.

Just for my personal notes...

Tech Issues: #1 issue - bugs, lag, and system flaws/glitches are not the players' fault. Don't punish the players for the server's issues. Tough one to address - there will always be tech issues of one kind or another, and no paying customer is going to be happy about losing a character to a bug.
Limited Returns: Barring GM/WL witnessed tech issues above, its a slippery slope downward with no chance of climbing back up save that 3mil barrier and a feat. IC return system, however easy or difficult and whether strands are regened or purchased, would take some of the pressure of inevitability due to #1 off.
Roleplay enhancement: System does not inherently do anything for roleplay. (What a player himself adds does not count.) At times, does the opposite because of issue #1. Generally ruins trips instead of ending them with a story worth telling.
Player Control: Roll vs Soul Mother system takes strand lossage out of player hands and leaves it up to chance. Many would rather have a harder system than leave it up to luck.
Fairness: Characters built for survival should not have a better chance to "win" than flawed characters, simply because of power level...likewise, people who simply are not the best players should not have a higher chance to perm, or perm those around them, because they are not those out "to win."
World Lore: The system cannot contradict established world lore, parts of which are known only to Ed and Leanthar. This one is especially hard to work with, as there are unknown factors.
Entertainment: I don't think I would write this as a primary concern as some of the others were, but it does seem that making death or strand loss more interesting in itself is a sentiment floating around. Perhaps this is just Integration and RP enhancement, though. "Fun" is always a factor, in any case - 24 hour wait times are not fun.
Presence, or in-game integration: The bindstone system as it is has often felt "tacked on" or an additional mechanic to make sure PCs stick around. Explanations given here and there have been at times on the spot or as yet undefined. Any permadeath system should be one of the most important systems in the game and have a heavy presence that is integral to the world, not a stray mechanic that both gives an excuse for PCs to keep coming back, and makes ending them a distant possibility.

have been the main things coming up that I have read, I think, with various things to address them. A solution for one may cancel out the other, of course, and something may be a primary complaint and still not be changed. The thing is, and this is the reason that I asked in the first place - I sincerely believe that it is the isolation of these themes that is most important, because of all the things at work that we cannot contribute to. Our suggestions help point out the problems and thus have merit, but may not provide any perfect solutions. This is why I feel that votes on systems and demands for change and heated arguments on how much the system sucks are what actually gives false hope. It is, to me, a bit like stirring up a riot that has no real destination. No system will ever be perfect, so what's the point in pitchforks and torches?

[Lynn1020]

I feel like I've missed the point and I ask for clarification, please. What, specifically, is unfair about random numbers or random chance?

I'm confused because, as a dice-based game, the entire system is based on a bunch of random rolls. Is everything unfair?

Almost all dice rolls in the game are expressions of what we are doing with a character, and if we want a better chance for a specific kind of roll, we can put points into a skill or an ability, take feats, etc.

The SS roll, on the other hand, is just random. Not an expression about the character's skills, ability, talents, plus a bit of chance, but just a pure random roll.
Other types of random rolls don't have nearly the same consequences as an SS roll... every once in a while, you may be faced with a roll on a quest with huge consequences, but other than that, very few times in the game will you be faced with a purely random chance that has the same potential.
Finally, most (except for some little used skills) other rolls that a character makes, will be rolled so many times over the course of a character's life that things even out a bit more. With the relatively few number of deaths a character can have, the likelihood that some characters will perm after a few deaths is pretty high, and that more than anything else, is what seems unfair to many.

An example is there is a player that has had 57 deaths and lost one soul strand and another that has had 57 deaths and lost nine soul strands. One more death and they could perm.  It just seems when it comes to losing your character all together there would some way to make it fair.  It is really frustrating to hear a player that has had over 100 deaths and lost one or two soul strands.  Seems there have been a few ways mentioned that it could be improved the system that would still follow LORE.  I don't think there are many that want to do away with Permadeath.  Just some type of improvement. After one of my character's permed I had a lot of people talk to me about how they didn't like the way the system is.  Just it seems they don't want to come out and speak against it.  They want to stay out of it to not cause "waves" and I can completely understand that!  No one wants the team upset with them.  Because we all enjoy playing here and want to continue to. Just want a more fair chance to keep our characters.

[Dorganath]

Yep, I agree. But when people are told to 'stop whining and start making recommendations' with false hopes that something may actually change, that is where is crosses the line from 'community cares' to 'lead by a carrot'.

No, actually the request for making suggestions helps us to think of alternatives we may not have considered while moving forward.  However, while I'm sure many would like it to be treated differently, this particular issue is no different than any other suggestion.  It does get considered, but it may not be implemented or acted upon.

What won't change is the concept of Soul Strands and their loss, resulting in perma-death.  What may change in NWN are the mechanics of their loss, but that takes more than just the will to do so.  It will most likely change for the MMO version, as mechanics in general are much different than NWN.  Since things will change for the new game and the mechanics of Soul Strands have yet to be fully defined, recommendations are in fact a very useful and tool.

[Gulnyr]

An example is there is a player that has had 57 deaths and lost one soul strand and another that has had 57 deaths and lost nine soul strands. One more death and they could perm.

Thank you for the example.  How is that unfair, specifically, though, rather than just unfortunate?  Did not each character have an equal chance despite choice of build, class, equipment, or other factors, and one simply come up unlucky?

It is really frustrating to hear a player that has had over 100 deaths and lost one or two soul strands.

 
For this, would it be less frustrating to have a system like Osxmallard suggested where no one knows how many soul strands anyone has remaining, making perming a complete surprise?  Would that eliminate the frustration, since no one could make any definite statement about how many strands were lost?  To expand the thought, is the randomness really your objection, or is it the fact that characters can perm at all?  

After one of my character's permed I had a lot of people talk to me about how they didn't like the way the system is.

Did they offer any specifics?  Were they opposed because of the method alone, or because your character was forever gone?  

Just it seems they don't want to come out and speak against it.  They want to stay out of it to not cause "waves" and I can completely understand that!  No one wants the team upset with them.  Because we all enjoy playing here and want to continue to.

I understand.  As long as posts are respectful, no one will get banned for them.  I've had some pretty strong opinions on things, and still do, and the posts on those topics have never come close to netting me a ban, or even a suggested short vacation.  Opinions are welcome, usually, even if they are critical of part of the world.

Just want a more fair chance to keep our characters.

I'm starting to feel that we are not all using the same definition of fair...

[Acacea]

I apologize if I seem to be reiterating something that some feel is overused, but no one is going to get banned for disagreeing with the team. Seriously. I do it all the time. Not that I am, uh, encouraging it, but as long as things are civil there is no rule stating one must like every system in-game, or every policy, or even every GM. I don't, I don't, and I don't. Even civil feedback that doesn't offer anything as suggestion, as long as it is not spammed, is likely not going to have any repercussions...why would it? It is typically player argument that leads to heat, as GMs are expected to keep better control of themselves in the public forums in terms of conduct and team-support. Not that anyone is perfect, but really, even if somebody gets disgruntled or snide, nobody is going to be prevented from playing here because they don't like the death system as it is. It is generally expected that no system is perfect nor satisfy everyone. It is simply important to keep in mind that speaking our minds does not mean direct change occurs. It can contribute to change, but will not control it.

The problem, I think, with calling for a "fairer" system is that any permadeath system will breed survivors, no matter what system is in place. The question is just to what degree it will occur, and to what degree it will work. Inexperienced players are going to die more than l337 gamers. Flawed builds intended for roleplay more than combat prowess will die more than perfect calculations. They are told to encourage the sort of behavior they would like to see... a system that looks only at death count favors those who do not die... which may be ideal in some regards, but will rely heavily on making characters made to win, I think. It is possible a compromise between character level and character death count could occur, which I mentioned somewhere else. Take a little heat off level and put a little more on count, without relying solely on either. It could work, but maybe it wouldn't be enough. IC soul strand return systems would also enable players to choose to keep their characters longer by their own actions as well, even if the loss was out of their hands.

Something worth mentioning might be that some people with lots and lots of deaths might have skewed numbers because of the load of dying that occurred with the Soul Mother's vacation. Randomness means that some will have more deaths than others, but it is hard to get an accurate statement of exactly how many there are.

((Edit: Gulnyr and I are apparently typing over each other's shoulders or something.))

[/SIZE][/I]

[Dorganath]

I apologize if I seem to be reiterating something that some feel is overused, but no one is going to get banned for disagreeing with the team.

No one, in my knowledge or memory, has ever been banned for disagreeing with the GM Team, game systems and/or policies or suggesting revisions to same.  People have been banned for being repeatedly abusive, disrespectful and hostile to the GM Team and the community, sometimes in the process of doing the above...sometimes just because.

I know some of you come from or play/have played on other game worlds where GM favor is a tangible "currency" of sorts, where the people in favor get free and fancy gear while those who show even the slightest disagreement are GM-griefed or banned on a whim.  That doesn't happen here, and in fact, GMs have been reprimanded for even suggesting that sort of behavior.

*steers the thread back on topic*

Something worth mentioning might be that some people with lots and lots of deaths might have skewed numbers because of the load of dying that occurred with the Soul Mother's vacation. Randomness means that some will have more deaths than others, but it is hard to get an accurate statement of exactly how many there are.

Also, factor in arena deaths, which are "free" in that they're generally without consequence.

((Edit: Gulnyr and I are apparently typing over each other's shoulders or something.))

[/SIZE][/I]

Yeah...starting to wonder about you guys.

[Lynn1020]

Thank you for the example. How is that unfair, specifically, though, rather than just unfortunate? Did not each character have an equal chance despite choice of build, class, equipment, or other factors, and one simply come up unlucky?

 
For this, would it be less frustrating to have a system like Osxmallard suggested where no one knows how many soul strands anyone has remaining, making perming a complete surprise? Would that eliminate the frustration, since no one could make any definite statement about how many strands were lost? To expand the thought, is the randomness really your objection, or is it the fact that characters can perm at all?


Did they offer any specifics?  Were they opposed because of the method alone, or because your character was forever gone?  


I understand. As long as posts are respectful, no one will get banned for them. I've had some pretty strong opinions on things, and still do, and the posts on those topics have never come close to netting me a ban, or even a suggested short vacation. Opinions are welcome, usually, even if they are critical of part of the world.


I'm starting to feel that we are not all using the same definition of fair...

They were opposed to the system.. some had only rp'd with my character that permed maybe once or twice.  

I never meant that anyone was afraid to they would get banned.  Just some do not like to speak out on such a strong topic.  Thats all.

Whats wrong with  breeding surviors?  Is that a bad thing?  So we should want some players to perm? If so we need to due away with SS reimbursements then it will be more fair.

I also see where you two you guys stand and you get where we stand but i wonder what the rest of the player community has to say.