Permission for a halfgiant to enter Hempstead

[Pen N Popper]

To date, I have avoided entering Hempstead with my halfgiant PC(s).  The one exception was being escorted ICly to deliver the kobold stick quest.

I would like to confirm that if my halfgiant were in possession of a signed ingame parchment stating his business within the city, he might be allowed to conduct select business there.  The business being crafting and delivery of crafted items to a city's resident.

Would this be appropriate?

[Dorganath]

Where would he get said parchment?  It would have to be something recognized by the city authorities, which would require someone of known status to vouch for him and/or he has to have proven his worth/goodness/safety in some way.

Crafting can be done elsewhere.

Understand that we don't want other PCs simply writing "passes" to prohibited races to get past the laws.

[Pen N Popper]

I was thinking another high level / well known PC would write it.

Should I submit for a CDQ for this instead?  Or is it flat-out "No?"

I'm imagining a dock worker with papers, so to speak.

[Dorganath]

It's not a "flat-out no"...but those PCs who are on the "Allowed" list are very few and have earned the right through some means other than being doing odd-jobs for an established character...and they have been around for a good long time.

And again, it has to be recognized by the city authorities, which means a GM needs to be involved at some point.  Just a note from a high level PC isn't enough.

[EdTheKet]

If it had been Lor, you could've asked Angela Swann, as she's a person of authority there.
However, to my knowledge, there is no PC who has any official ranking or post of authority in Port Hempstead's authorities. Sure, there may be PCs that are well known, but still...

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

From [lore]Half Giant[/lore]:

Half Giants are as hard as the life they lead. Like most half-breed races, Half Giants are usually never fully accepted by either of their parents races. However, their natural strength and health make them hearty workers. Among Humans, a Half Giant can usually pass as a Barbarian due to his immense size and sturdy build.

Relations:
Half Giants as a general rule tend to get along well with both their parent races, and have better relations with both than, say, Half Elves. They dislike Half Orcs and find Elves to be self-centered and distant. Half Giants are generally creatures of strength and action and they will work well with those of similar mentality, barring Half Orcs.

The entry goes on to continue to compare Half-Giants primarily to Humans, strongly implying that they fit well into human culture, as they are simply so human-like (rather than giant-like).

This has been briefly addressed before, but a reasonable conclusion wasn't reached.

[Dorganath]

That doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I think what he's trying to say is that his Half Giant might pass as a large, heavily built Human Barbarian, and not make people think he is a half giant.

Now at the same time, Giants are well known for not having ANY body hair anywhere, and a big burly hairless man might raise eyesbrows and give him away...  But I think he's trying to make his HG pass has just a Big Ugly, Muscled Human

[ycleption]

Not to mention that half giants "typically stand 6 ½ to 8 feet in height and weigh from 250 to 400 pounds." Sure, a small half-giant may be dismissed as a huge hairless human, but an 8 foot, 400 pound something is going to attract attention no matter what race they are...

Maybe a bit off-topic, but this is one of those things that characters (of all races, not just monstrous ones) often forget, how their appearance affects social interaction. *walks up to the elf, standing inches away, towering above her even when slouching* may be very different from *draws himself up to his full height to meet the human's gaze*

Bottom line, make sure you know how big your characters are, and make sure you aren't towering over tall humans one moment, then trying to blend in amongst them the next.

(incidentally, it makes me very happy to see that some people actually think about whether or not IC it makes sense for their characters to enter Hemp... I miss the atmosphere in Vehl right after v3, when monstrous races actually used it instead of Hempstead)

[Pen N Popper]

For the record, I'm in no way trying to hide his halfgiantness (is that a word?).  On the contrary, imagine him being used more as an oxen.  He's an "it" not a person; a lowly contraption some wealthy citizen has put to use.

I would never sit by the fountain, or rub elbows in the Mug, or such.  Speaking of which, my halfgiant has been to Hempstead one other time:  He sailed in burdened with wood and was escorted by the paying human to and from the crafthall and kitchen.  He then immediately was escorted out of the city.  An oxen, nothing more.

I tend to agree with the team's decision not to grant ad hoc permission through this means.  You know that someone would abuse it and go flouncing around the city in a tiny miniskirt with drow legs showing.  "Oh, but I'm just a maid in so-and-so's house!"

Give us players an inch, and we'll jimmy that crack open until it's a gaping hole.

[lonnarin]

On the flip side, whenever Earl sees an epic drow sitting on a bench and tells Trent, he says that they're an exception.  So if there are exceptions, I would like the prerequisites for which firmly stated.  I was even threatened with prison time when I asked who his direct superior was over the matter, heh.  No matter what reputation a drow has, that doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead.  If there is such an "Allowed List", then I would like to see it publicly posted, if only to protect the exceptions from angry mobs of the citizenry.

It should also be assumed that if you're wearing full robes, gloves, and hood or helm, that the Gate Guards or Port Authority would have already asked you to show them your face as you enter town in order to police this law, correct?

[EdTheKet]

On the flip side, whenever Earl sees an epic drow sitting on a bench and tells Trent, he says that they're an exception.  So if there are exceptions, I would like the prerequisites for which firmly stated.

There will be no prerequisites defined, there's are more important things to define at this point in time with everything that we're doing, which I'm sure you can understand.

I was even threatened with prison time when I asked who his direct superior was over the matter, heh.

And rightly so, because you're questioning an officer on duty

No matter what reputation a drow has, that doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead.  If there is such an "Allowed List", then I would like to see it publicly posted, if only to protect the exceptions from angry mobs of the citizenry.

If the angry citizenry would be aware of said dark elf, and if such a list was easily put there in game without a module change, then maybe.

It should also be assumed that if you're wearing full robes, gloves, and hood or helm, that the Gate Guards or Port Authority would have already asked you to show them your face as you enter town in order to police this law, correct?

Yes, you can assume that. But as you know, we do not have GM possessed guards 24/7, so if everybody just waltzes through the gate and pretend nothing happens then there's little we can do apart from having a GM presence there all the time or actively enforcing it should we become aware.
And I would think people would agree that GM time is better spent on running quests, then policing Hempstead 24/7.

Cost/benefit assessment: high cost, low benefit.

Half-giants are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead, so you'd be turned away at the gates, as would a dark elf.

We made the Vehl/Hempstead distinction to give people playing "monstrous" races a city of their own with its own atmosphere (unlike which was the case when we "only" had Hlint). It's not the idea to throw that overboard by making or thinking up exceptions.

[Odranoela]

Dark Elf at Hempstead gates are subjected to attack on sight if I'm not mistaken

[Acacea]

Surely can't just say "And rightly so, because you're questioning an officer on duty" in a blanket statement to all officials anywhere. Different reasons for different NPCs, right? It isn't some kind of LE false-Rofireinite hotel where even thinking about questioning someone's authority can bring the threat of righteous justice on you because just asking must mean you're suspicious. The city by order/priority/whatever you lump things together by is Neutral Good and supposedly Trent was chosen very young to captainhood because of kindness and a good heart. It seems like half the time when someone brings up half decent questions, it doesn't really matter because we spend as much time making reasons for things after they already occur a certain way, instead of just making them occur to go along with existing reasons - such as the whole half monsters thing. It's not really a hem haw maybe this maybe that kind of thing, it was wrong to have some of them on the list according to everything previously established, certainly without any kind of reason.

If we say they are okay and are around and stuff one day and then the next day post a sign saying they are banned from a major port city - not a fortress, a hugely traveled port - then something had to have happened. They must have gone bigots and decided half breed genocide was on the list. They must've been Prantz indoctrinated to just suddenly post something like that, since posting it in the first place is not really even necessary for a normal city...not like orcs can read nor be deterred by a sign. But no, they're NG, half orcs worked the docks and other such labor positions, half giants were accepted in the human lands... then because someone typed them on a sign we have to explain away the last 30 RP years, hehe. I probably sound angry, but it's not really that (although dying with triple digit heat). I'm just trying to illustrate why it seems so weird to me that we try to change the whole established attitude for a people and the reasons and the alignments and the xyz for a couple of words that were just lumped together on a kinda OOC sign outside a starting city.

Kind of like reasoning well, Trent could have been corrupted and disheartened by his position and has grown to be something of a jerk with a taste for power in recent years...instead of just thinking maybe he could be played nicer, heh.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I agree that some sort of reasonable IC justification be made.  I'm not a fan of "It's like this because we say so"...

Now sure, I understand more important things are in the works, but I would think justification and reasoning would have been something to be tagged along with the "no half giants/orcs" rule/sign-making decision, especially with a good amount of Previously RP and Lore made no indication of Half Giants or Half Orcs being viewed as monsters, or at least being forbidden from a huge Port City, as Acacea mentioned.  A city like that would be the kind of place all sorts of people would wander through.

Now I'm not saying the "No orcs, Drow, goblin" rules are wrong, but with Lore Saying Half Giants are tolerated by humans, I'm just one of the ones wishing a reason for the city being off limits to them be more explicit, other then "We have Vehl for them," or "because thats how we wanted it" or whatever.

And to concer with Acacea, Trent threatening someone who questions him is sorta LE, or at least not LG, as Trent should be as a Captain of the Silverguard.

I'm hoping it'll be in the new handbook, why things are as they are...

And also, Port Hempstead is a great deal more details about where things like Shops and Trade halls are, and Also has a great deal more access to other important ports like Mariner's Hold and Leringard.  Infact the only Port to Mariner's Hold I know of IS Hempstead...

[Dorganath]

Alright...

ICly speaking, this law went into effect during the "Dark Ages", which was a time of difficulty for everyone around the world. For good or ill, people "circled the wagons" for mutual protection and welfare. Whatever the alignment of the city may be, and whatever is "generally" accepted (i.e. half-giants generally accepted by human societies), the law for Port Hempstead became one that is, essentially, discriminatory to certain races based solely on appearance together with history (in the case of dark elves) and the FUD factor (i.e. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

OOCly, there are a few factors.  First, this law was put in place shortly after v3 went live, and was more or less in line with the idea of two starting cities...one which is considered more civilized (Port Hempstead) and one which is rather less-so (Fort Vehl).  Also, it came on the heels of new starting alignment requirements for characters of such races.  Lastly, and something to not be discounted because we continually remind people of this, the actions of a few players who either did not care enough or were simply incapable of properly RPing the aspects of one or more of these races caused us to institute yet more rules. Yes, this is the few spoiling it for the many, but it came after repeated requests by the GM Team, not to mention verified reports by the player base.  So file that one under "actions have consequences," because that's, in part, the reasoning behind the rules for Port Hempstead.

Now, to the original question...

Your character is new, and while I'm confident in your personal ability to properly RP the half-giant racial aspects and the like, and also while I have no personal doubts as to whether or not you will in fact limit your time in Port Hempstead to being an "ox" or "errand boy" or whatever, the fact is that he either needs respected sponsors who are willing to bring his case to the Port Hempstead authorities or he needs to become established and well-known over time.  The former will ultimately require some level of GM interaction, whether through a CDQ or other means, the latter will just take time.

[Dorganath]

And also, Port Hempstead is a great deal more details about where things like Shops and Trade halls are, and Also has a great deal more access to other important ports like Mariner's Hold and Leringard.  Infact the only Port to Mariner's Hold I know of IS Hempstead...

You can get to Mariner's from Fort Vehl as well.  And for what it's worth, we're not going to come down on a member of a restricted race for being mechanically required to stop through Port Hempstead to take a boat to Leringard, for example. At the same token, they shouldn't leave the area of the ships and probably not even RP getting off the boat.

[Hellblazer]

If the angry citizenry would be aware of said dark elf, and if such a list was easily put there in game without a module change, then maybe.

I may have the easy solution here, but why not add a section to the forum (rp section) where the laws and rules for lands/cities/town could be posted. And if there is a list for those town of people allowed in that has earned it, to post it there too. Like that, it could be taken as if posted in the town/cities itself.  There is already some sections for the major Inn's, maybe add under each in that represent a major city, a thread with the pertinent rules and regulations and names if applicable.

[Drizzlin]

On the flip side, whenever Earl sees an epic drow sitting on a bench and tells Trent, he says that they're an exception.  So if there are exceptions, I would like the prerequisites for which firmly stated.  I was even threatened with prison time when I asked who his direct superior was over the matter, heh.  No matter what reputation a drow has, that doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead.  If there is such an "Allowed List", then I would like to see it publicly posted, if only to protect the exceptions from angry mobs of the citizenry.

It should also be assumed that if you're wearing full robes, gloves, and hood or helm, that the Gate Guards or Port Authority would have already asked you to show them your face as you enter town in order to police this law, correct?

That is assuming that an "epic drow" didn't have a simple way to get past the city guards and then blend in. With teleport (wizards/druids), invis, coming in by the docks...there are MANY ways to get into the city without having to walk up to the guards and knock on the gates.

[Drizzlin]

We made the Vehl/Hempstead distinction to give people playing "monstrous" races a city of their own with its own atmosphere (unlike which was the case when we "only" had Hlint). It's not the idea to throw that overboard by making or thinking up exceptions.

But still didn't give us an advanced crafting halls...=P *runs and hides*