Permission for a halfgiant to enter Hempstead

[Weeblie]

That is assuming that an "epic drow" didn't have a simple way to get past the city guards and then blend in. With teleport (wizards/druids), invis, coming in by the docks...there are MANY ways to get into the city without having to walk up to the guards and knock on the gates.

But this is also assuming that the said epic dark elf would not be detected by any of the other epic characters (or even NPCs) present in the city. Wouldn't mind a sudden flash of implosion heading towards his direction?

[EdTheKet]

Surely can't just say "And rightly so, because you're questioning an officer on duty" in a blanket statement to all officials anywhere.

Actually, I can as what I was responding to "asking who his direct superior was over the matter". That doesn't sound as if it was put in a nice and polite way to dear Trent, and if you try that with a police officer they're of course not immediately going to toss you in jail, but they're not going to drive you down to the police station so that you can go and talk with the district head.

The city by order/priority/whatever you lump things together by is Neutral Good

A city being NG does not mean it can't have laws like the one they have. It's the average alignment of the general populace mostly.
If we'd go just by the alignment of cities/nations, then there'd never be wars between two NG nations.

I'm hoping it'll be in the new handbook, why things are as they are...

It will not be, I'm afraid.

I'm just trying to illustrate why it seems so weird to me that we try to change the whole established attitude for a people and the reasons and the alignments and the xyz for a couple of words that were just lumped together on a kinda OOC sign outside a starting city.

I refer to Dorganath's post for the reasons why, both ICly and OOCly.
I get the impression there's this "business cycle" going on. (You know, how 5-7 years of growth get followed by 5-7 years of decline).
First, we do not have any rules against "monstrous" races, and you can find them on every corner of Hlint. There are many talks and discussions about this, occasionally dark elves get kicked out of Hlint if there's a GM on, but it's never satisfactory.

Then we do V3, and decide we'll loosen the restrictions on evil PCs, and put in two starting cities so that those playing an evil char, and/or those playing a monstrous race char can have "their" city as well. Good idea right? Right!

But then, like Dorganath says, we get reports and need to police. So we put up signs, so that people who do not frequent the forums a lot also become aware. Good idea right? Right!

You'll see that most of the above is all because of OOC behaviours that we tried to solve with OOC/IC solutions.
There is never going to be a 100% fix.

Anyway, you request a reason why they're not allowed in the city, here it is:

The Port Hempstead Dockworkers guild consists mostly of your standard human. Half giants or half orcs with their strength and size are a threat to the livelihood of the regular human dockworker, so they're barred from the city after successful lobbying and bribing of the PHDG led to this rule implementation by the Port Hempstead authorities.

[Renter]

Anyway, you request a reason why they're not allowed in the city, here it is:

The Port Hempstead Dockworkers guild consists mostly of your standard human. Half giants or half orcs with their strength and size are a threat to the livelihood of the regular human dockworker, so they're barred from the city after successful lobbying and bribing of the PHDG led to this rule implementation by the Port Hempstead authorities.

This conforms to my impressions of Port Hempstead from my first visit in a long time.  Between the sign outside and the statuary dedicated to the heroes who defended the city from drow, dwarf and goblin assaults, it was simple to conclude that the city is strongly bigoted... perhaps understandably so, but bigoted nonetheless.

Just posting because these cues were entirely legible to my noobish eye and did not seem contrived. Hempstead comes off as a militaristic, xenophobic city.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Humans, despite being the most adaptable vertebrates in the world, ARE quite quick to pick up prejudices. They don't have much time (comparatively) to develop a world-view before they're wasting away to death, so it simply makes sense for Average Joe NPC to lump the rest of the world into a few sentences worth of ideas.

Farmer NPC probably thinks most elves are slender treehuggers, most dwarves are sturdy drinkers, and all dark elves are evil monsters from the depths of the world intent on his destruction.

You get the idea.

[Dorganath]

But still didn't give us an advanced crafting halls...=P *runs and hides*

There's an advanced craft hall in Mariner's Hold, which has no racial restrictions.

[Dorganath]

Humans, despite being the most adaptable vertebrates in the world, ARE quite quick to pick up prejudices. They don't have much time (comparatively) to develop a world-view before they're wasting away to death, so it simply makes sense for Average Joe NPC to lump the rest of the world into a few sentences worth of ideas.

Other races are not without their prejudices, and I think your social assessment of humans and Average Joe NPC is a little narrow.

Elves generally think they are better than everyone else, an attitude most commonly held by Grey Elves and Dark Elves.  From LORE

Gray Elves are much more arrogant and aloof than other elven races. They regard every other race with disdain, even other elven races. They only have respect for other Gray Elves. Most Gray Elves are full of themselves, and usually only listen to themselves or other Gray Elves.

Dwarves have had their share of conflict with elves and some still hold onto old animosities.  As well, Dwarves are generally distrusting and yes...prejudiced against groups like Dark Elves, Half-orcs, Half-giants, Goblins and so on. Both of these races are long-lived enough to "develop a world view," and yet they are every bit as prejudiced as any other race

Farmer NPC probably thinks most elves are slender treehuggers, most dwarves are sturdy drinkers, and all dark elves are evil monsters from the depths of the world intent on his destruction.
 
You get the idea.

You're right, and in about 99% of the cases, they would be correct.  Sure, there might be an obese, industrialist elf out there, or a dwarf with a one-drink limit...and Hlint has shown us that some Dark Elves are just Elves with suntans. But the commonly-held perceptions of the various races, humans included, are quite accurate for most of the cases.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, it was a four-sentence post. It was a bit narrow. I suppose I should've elaborated to explain how humans will adopt these ideas more readily than some of the longer-lived races...

For example, Typical Dwarf John isn't too fond of elves - but that general dislike (if typically not outright hatred; something like Americans and the French) is gently hammered into him over forty years of childhood... Compared to the fifteen, eighteen of a human.

Human societies vary quite wildly. From the pseudo-Euro Trelania, to the Nordic Barbarian Isles, to the Eastern once-Rodhen (Rohden? Once-Roldem)... Societal norms differ. Folk in the Barbarian Isles are extremely tribal, placing Tribe on par with immediate family and, though it varies from Tribe to Tribe, often having less moral trouble when it comes to violence, which is seen as a natural part of the chaos that is life. Breliners, as a whole, are farmers - considering, perhaps, themselves as Breliners, but foremost considering themselves Coopers, or McAndrews, or Smiths - extended families sticking together to work the land that they call home. Violence is not a part of their lives, while the intricacies of politics are the period equivalent of soap operas... Something a Krashiner would likely have trouble seeing the fascination in. (Some of the specifics are speculation, but the examples are provided to illustrate the point.)

It is the stories and legends, however, that truly define human culture. Whereas the longer-lived races' histories are but a generation or three back, a human child must take the majority of his knowledge of the world on faith. Little Joey McFarmer doesn't have Great-Grandpa Elfy to tell the tale of his father's part in the Dragon Wars... No, he's some ten or twelve generations down, where all has passed into myth and tale. To him, all Dark Elves ARE evil, particularly if he can still go to the older parts of the city (if he lives in or near Hemp) and see the ruins.

Joey McFarmer's never seen Fort Vehl - it's leagues away, and he'll never have reason to go there. It's his Mos Eisley - a den of thieves and smugglers that he's only heard mentioned a few times. Dark Elves, goblins... Stuff of stories, for all that the old men talk of war.

Humans take to ideas very rapidly, and form a mob identity just as quick. Get fifty humans in a crowd, and tell them about the horrors that a group of dark elves has been visiting upon the countryside, get 'em riled up... And then toss a darkear in there. He'll get torn limb from limb, no matter how Good and prissy he is, no matter how little he fights back.

Likewise, if you've got a city of people who've grown up hearing stories of the horrors that the monsters have put their relatives and countrymen through... It might not be an anger reaction. One man spots a flash of obsidian skin on an elf, and you've likely got an hysteria on your hands.

Monstrous races aren't banned from Hempstead because of any truly logical reason... They're banned to keep the people from rioting.

My above argument was only that perhaps people would be comfortable enough with half-giants (like half-elves and the occasional half-orc who doesn't look too fearsome) to not freak out too badly. But the Authorities in Hemp took the safe route; their choice.

Better?

[Dorganath]

Compared to the relative span of time between birth and adulthood, the time for an idea to become ingrained is roughly equivalent across the races.  One could even argue that the elven or dwarven life spans allow for even more deeply rooted prejudices than humans. On the flip side, humans are, being adaptable as they are, more likely to be swayed by arguments toward dropping or softening their prejudices.

But anyway, this is sliding off-topic.  See above for the reasoning, both IC and OOC.

[Drizzlin]

But this is also assuming that the said epic dark elf would not be detected by any of the other epic characters (or even NPCs) present in the city. Wouldn't mind a sudden flash of implosion heading towards his direction?

While we are hypothetically assuming! *grins* The said "epic drow' might have proven to the other epic characters that she can be trusted and they turn a blind eye. Perhaps they have crossed paths and have mutual respect for each other. I mean with them not being LG epic pcs and all!

[Drizzlin]

There's an advanced craft hall in Mariner's Hold, which has no racial restrictions.

Three boat trips, no mage hall, no inn to bake goods... Not being able to get round trips to and from Mariner's hold is another issue.

I am not trying to complain, but hardly fair and reasonable. The changes with V3 were great as were the additions to Vhel, please do not get me wrong. I don't mean to complain, but with all fairness, an advanced hall in vhel is needed.

[Script Wrecked]

There is an inn to bake goods in, in Mariner's Hold, and there is a mage hall in a nearby tower.

[INDENT]"Come and visit sunny Alindor! The adventurers' first choice for excitement and crafting! We even have our own resident bad-guy!"[/INDENT]

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Kirbiana]

Speaking as one of those twinkly goody-two-shoes types, I can tell you that there's no place in Hempstead where I can bake either.  I have to scurry past all those drunken sailors in Vehl and dive into the One-Eyed Harpy's kitchen before any of them can accost me. Thankfully, the cook down there is fond of my apple pies and smacks the customers with her big wooden spoon if they try to follow me.
 
 

[Dorganath]

What Script Wrecked said.

And yes, there is a round-trip between Vehl and Mariner's, so it's only 2 boat tickets.  And once more...one of the prices you pay for playing one of those races...something we've been saying for quite a while now.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Speaking as one of those twinkly goody-two-shoes types, I can tell you that there's no place in Hempstead where I can bake either.
 
 

Ummm...  Have you never been to the Scamps Mug in the Docks District of Hempstead?  There is a kitchen to cook there...

*gives Kirbiana a disbelieving look*

[Verideth]

I have seen several half orcs, Dobble the 1/2 gaint and even a dark elf in Port Hemp.

I am glad to hear that simply wearing a helm doesn't by pass that but still I see those laws broken often.

Speaking of helms and hiding races. I am often around dark elf PC's that are "disguise". Lately there have been three I have seen often. If I spend a decent amount of time around them or go adventuring with them. Am I in my rights to ask for a lore check to know what they are? I assume in the course of adventuring and getting cut and stabbed I would see their skin, especially if I healing or bandaging them.

And what would be the DC of that Lore check?

I hate what will happen once I find out. But we either ignore the world and the Lore or role play it out.

Byron player of Verideth

[ycleption]

Ummm...  Have you never been to the Scamps Mug in the Docks District of Hempstead?  There is a kitchen to cook there...

*gives Kirbiana a disbelieving look*

I'm not sure if this is what Kirbiana was getting at, but there are plenty of characters you wouldn't set foot in the Mug for IC reasons (For instance, I think paladins are technically allowed to, but would they really want to?), and that inconvenience in crafting locations is not limited to monstrous races.

Speaking of helms and hiding races. I am often around dark elf PC's that are "disguise".

I think I've said this before, but hoods don't hide faces (at least, if you want to be able to walk without bumping into things, it won't). If you see a character with a helmet on when they don't have to, that's just weird, and you have every right to ask them to remove it out of courtesy (just make sure you treat everyone alike, if you go that route). I mean really, in RL, if somebody rides up to McDonalds in their Harley, and doesn't take off their helmet when they do in to order,m sure they may get served, but their going to get some strange looks.... a metal helmet is no different, and probably a lot more uncomfortable.

[Kirbiana]

Shiff, darling, it's attached to the temple of an enemy god.  Mirrim may have an intelligence of 9, but she's still pretty sure she shouldn't go in there.
 
 

[Script Wrecked]

I think I've said this before, but hoods don't hide faces (at least, if you want to be able to walk without bumping into things, it won't).

I think that you'll find that most of the players whose characters do run around in hoods all of the time do think that the hoods give them total anonymity, and this is the mechanism used to allow all those dark elves, half-orcs and goblins mingle so freely amongst us.

If you see a character with a helmet on when they don't have to, that's just weird...

...I mean really, in RL, if somebody rides up to McDonalds in their Harley, and doesn't take off their helmet when they do in to order,m sure they may get served, but their going to get some strange looks....

In a fantasy/medieval setting, the wearing of helms is not so out of place.

...and you have every right to ask them to remove it out of courtesy (just make sure you treat everyone alike, if you go that route).

Well, I don't think you have any right as such, but feel free to do so. Just be aware that such action may get you killed.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[ycleption]

In a fantasy/medieval setting, the wearing of helms is not so out of place.

In casual settings? I mean, sure there are plenty of medieval tales of the black knight who won't remove his helm before the joust and so forth, but that kind of trope is designed to make a character strange and out of the ordinary. If you saw someone sitting on a bench with a helm that covers their face, you would certainly take notice, even if you don't automatically assume they're trying to hide their race.

I'm just saying that while wearing a face covering helmet will hide your face, its not going to help blend in with the populace.

Well, I don't think you have any right as such, but feel free to do so. Just be aware that such action may get you killed.

Sure, but again, relying on those fantasy/medieval stories, refusing to remove a helmet following a polite request (without a darned good reason), could be considered an insult that might get you killed too. *shrugs*

[Dorganath]

Fezzik: Why do you wear a mask? Were you burned by acid, or something like that?

The Man in Black: Oh no, it's just that they're terribly comfortable. I think everyone will be  wearing them in the future.