Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means

[Weeblie]

Hehe... did it appear to you that:

1. Aeridin is the primary elven deity and Voltrex itself has been quite "locked" until just "recently". Not even other elves were generally allowed in.

2. Az'atta is a deity of "those who have turned away from the dark side". A bunch of thieves, murderers and dark elves who claim that they now have changed. Not the sort of people with their opinions being valued so greatly by others.

You need to get back to the drawing board again. :p

[Acacea]

Lonn, that is exactly the reaction that sign should cause, and why it was a big lack of thought that caused it to be put there in the first place, since it is a completely inappropriate location for that kind of frenzy in this period of its history. Getting that reaction to a city supposed to be represented as good and free seems to have been the desired result, instead of simply representing it as it was. Instead of what was there, we have something completely worthy of everyone's scorn, and we must like it that way since it remains. Boycott away, since we have lit a match on the stack of kindling that was Port Hempstead.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I'm kinda surprised no one has bothered to remember the city was destroyed BY Dark Elves and Giants and Orcs a LONG time ago.  Why would they want those kinds ANYWHERE near their city?  I think it makes sense, the sign.  And since this debate has started I keep my "Dark Elf" away from Hempstead, unless I have to go through the docks from Mariner's Hold or Leringard

[Dorganath]

I said this in IRC...

If you think the law is unjust, start an IC, in-game movement to petition the city to change or relax it.

It's certainly a better option than endlessly debating this here.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

So, Bottom Line:

1. Alantha is allowed in Hempstead cause she Alantha, and since I donno what she did to become a WL, won't say more.  And if there are other "monsterous" PCs that are allowed in Hempstead that I don't know about, same for them.  But Lath don't belong there, so you won't find him in the city :p  EDIT:  Well whatever she did (since it wasn't her WLDQ) I still donno what that is, but whatever that reason IS, I still donno.  So bottom line, Alantha is Alantha and earned it for whatever reason by whatever means.  Deal with it

2. Respect the Sign!  If you play a Monster, and just HAVE to get into Hempstead despite all that Hemp offers IS offered in many other cities (Mariner's Hold, Vehl, Prantz, Hlint, Llast, Wayfare, Etc), find a DM, try sneaking in, or seriously RP trying to scale the walls or something, or sneaking in through the docks, or something...  But don't just waltz in thinking "Muahaha!  No DMs!  I can get away with it!"  Cause that's metagaming(ish) and poor RPmanship (IMHO)

3. If a DM catches you IC, RP it!  Fight with Trent, resist arrest, Argue, whatever, but don't complain to the DM that its not fair.  It's posted for all to see, if you're in te city when your not supposed to, your just asking for it.

4. If you wanna change it, do something IC about it.  Cause I'm pretty sure the Team and the players don't need to constantly debate and dispute this on the forums till kingdom Come...  Heck, there are a bunch of players playing Goblins, Half Orcs, Half Giants, even some drow.  start something!  Just...  not a War, cause then shiff has to get involved and hurt people...  :p

[Weeblie]

Alantha's WL status has nothing to do what so ever with Hempstead. In fact, what she exactly did on her WL isn't something super well known among all. And... wasn't she allowed into Hempstead far before when her WL was ran?

So, what's the reason? Well, perhaps what she did before? The key contributing factor, and probably her most famous deed, is perhaps being with the group paying good old Blood a visit?

Classical Drizzt style going on in this case. Heh, and she even has a house in Hempstead so no wonder she's allowed in.

To my poor knowledge, I know that there are at least one other person also on the "okay"-list. Though... I cannot remember the name of the said character.

[Dorganath]

Right.  Alantha's WL status has absolutely nothing to do with her admission to Port Hempstead.  And yes, she was excepted before her WL ran.

It has more to do with the individuals proving themselves in some way and being well-known as good people rather than any other sort of status they might have attained.

As an example, if Daralith were to become a WL, that wouldn't automatically grant him free access to Port Hempstead.

2, 3 and 4 are about right though.

[jrizz]

so how do you get on the "ok list" and what is the criteria for getting on the "ok  list"?

Do you have to save the world?
Do you have to save the city?
Or do you just have to prove you are a good guy/gal?
Who decides who is on the "ok list"?

If you have to save the world, what constitutes the world? If you were one of the "heros" of the thunder peaks, does that count?
What if a GM runs a quest about a goblin army getting ready to raid Hempstead and you have stop that, will you then be on the "ok list'?

This is very confusing. The city rule should be the rule no exceptions. We who play monstrous races have Vehl why do any of us need access to hempstead? Exceptions cause confusion.

An easy away around revoking someones access is to say "hey that was a long time ago this is now" and the new boss says "sorry its not me its the people they just dont want your type here"

[Weeblie]

How did Drizzt become accepted?

Simple answer: No lone action makes you OK. It's a pattern of well recognised events.

[jrizz]

How did Drizzt become accepted?

Simple answer: No lone action makes you OK. It's a pattern of well recognised events.

Most of the questions still stand. Without it being defined it is left subjective.

Who has to recognize your accomplishments? The city government? The people of the city? Some temple elders? The people who live in the farms outside of the city? Your friends?
Do people of accepted races have to petition for you? Do they have to vouch for you? To who is this done?

And still the question, Who decides?

Easier to revoke all access then to build the structure needed to support exceptions.

[Weeblie]

It is naturally the government itself who alone is making this decision, just like it is the government of Prantz that would decide if you were an exception to their no-magic rule, and the government of Voltrex if you were to be allowed a permanent stay on the island (um... yeah... right... big chance...). Due to the nature of exceptions being few, the infrastructure to support the exceptions isn't a bother for the government (for the moment).

If one thinks about it... there are actually exceptionally many exceptions among the adventuring population. Elves following dwarven deities and happily living among humans, dwarves being best buddies with halflings, druids not even hesitating to walk into a crowded city, etc... I would dare to say that among the PC population, the exception is to actually be like the rest 99% of the world, hehe...

[jrizz]

ok so OOC anyone can proclaim their goodness and "say" they were granted an exception? LOL just joking of course.

The questions still stand especially; Who decides?

- Do you have to save the world?
- Do you have to save the city?
- Do you just have to prove you are a good guy/gal?
- If you have to save the world, what constitutes the world?
- If you were one of the "heros" of the thunder peaks, does that count?
- What if a GM runs a quest about a goblin army getting ready to raid Hempstead and you have stop that, will you then be on the "ok list'?
- Who has to recognize your accomplishments? The city government? The people of the city? Some temple elders? The people who live in the farms outside of the city? Your friends?
- Do people of accepted races have to petition for you? Do they have to vouch for you? To who is this done?

[Drizzlin]

Quote from the other thread...

The reason I asked for clarification in the first place is exactly this.  To me this means that -every- race listed on the sign (halforcs, orcs, goblins, kobold, halfgiants, drow, etc.) and those not listed (human, elf, etc.) would all be required to RP that they were asked by the guards to show their faces.  If any monstrous race enters Hempstead it is in fact metagaming.  

I personally don't like this inability to disguise oneself.  Of course there is no disguise for a massive halfgiant so either way my PC(s) would be excluded.  (Which I agree should be the case.)

Nor is there some huge magical bubble that prevents a rogue/mage or others from entering the city by other means. You don't always have to go through the gate. This was a point brought up and agreed upon, and then backed with  it being a way to enter the city and then be disguised.

[Dorganath]

It's real simple...

For an exception, one must have a sponsor (or sponsors) petition the Port Hempstead authorities (read: a GM) for the exemption.  Based on the merits and deeds of the individual, the exemption will either be granted or denied.  

To give you some idea, those to whom the exemption applies are heros of the war against Bloodstone, and their names are known and mentioned in the various stories of deeds throughout the time period that covers the last campaign. That's not the only way to get an exemption, but, say, a month or two of playing nice won't cut it either.  It's not out of the realm of possibility to have a CDQ to gain an exemption...really, there are lots of possibilities.

And again...petitioning for the law to change is a good road also. Maybe half-orcs and half-giants will be permitted with an escort.  Maybe they're required to register, or perhaps they can enter freely but must be out of town by nightfall.  Who knows!  But hey, try something besides...you know...setting fire to the city.

[jrizz]

The issue I have with the whole disguise thing is that everyone should get a spot check on you. And since we dont have a GM on 24/7 how do we deal with it? You can say that just by the magnitude of the numbers alone your chance of getting spotted should be very high. So we come back to it. How do we handle this? There are many ways for you to make your way through to the port, sure. But if you intend to hang around in the center of the city, the crafting hall, the docks, or the inn getting spotted should be inevitable. The only way around that is staying invisible the whole time.

Now as for getting across the city you can go invisi, you can dress like some hero of note (if you are a female dark elf it would be easier), you can get by with a hood and well covered skin (unless you are a HG or HO). But these things would be only for pass through. And ANY PCs about should get a spot check on you. Now what do we base that spot check on? I am sure we can come up with something that works for all.

[Drizzlin]

Largely correct.  It's definitely metagaming to simply walk in the front gate as a member of a monstrous race and expect no sort of resistance.  It is, however, an entirely different thing to get past the guards by, for example, sneaking or going invisible.  And yes, it is similar, though not quite as serious, as defacing temples in front of the temple staff when there's no GM on.

On disguises....the "disguise" of a hood might work well to shadow one's features making it more difficult to recognize their face, but during the day, it would not even come close to concealing their skin color.  A decent spot roll can defeat a hood-only "disguise".  Half-orcs and half-giants are big and shaped oddly, and no amount of hoods or helmets are going to change that.

Thank you for bringing this up again Dorg.

For the rest of us, I would recommend you talk to the people who are "in the city" as monsterous races. I know some go in the city and never hang out in any large area and always try to "walk" in the shadows of the city and stick to the alleys and keep out of sight. If you try asking them in tells it might promote some good RP and answer your questions on whether they are openly  walking in the city (abusing the AI And rules) or putting some RP and time into how they got in.

I have personally been approached by server DMs on Daralith and asked both in game and out of game what I am doing in Hempsted. Through RP and not abusing the system it has always been "OK'D" by the DMs that I am there for short periods of time. I am of course usually just quickly passing through to the docks, hitting a fast trade in the trade hall, or doing some business and getting the heck out of there. I know that the city does not allow my kind and I do not want to get caught in it. I recommend to the that you talk to the people who are there and try to find out what why they are there in game.

[Drizzlin]

I'm kinda surprised no one has bothered to remember the city was destroyed BY Dark Elves and Giants and Orcs a LONG time ago.  Why would they want those kinds ANYWHERE near their city?  I think it makes sense, the sign.  And since this debate has started I keep my "Dark Elf" away from Hempstead, unless I have to go through the docks from Mariner's Hold or Leringard

What you are failing to understand is that Dark elves, giants and orcs are not allowed anywhere in any city period. Sure you can say vehl and prantz, but even there they are not welcome or "accepted".

The only difference with hempsted is there is a sign stating the obvious. I have never had the issue of not understanding what it means to play a hated evil race. I have always know my PC is not allowed anywhere and always RPed him in hiding and sticking to the shadows rather than openly walking around as a DE, knocking on gate doors, and asking if he can play with the local children at the day care.

[Drizzlin]

Right.  Alantha's WL status has absolutely nothing to do with her admission to Port Hempstead.  And yes, she was excepted before her WL ran.

It has more to do with the individuals proving themselves in some way and being well-known as good people rather than any other sort of status they might have attained.

As an example, if Daralith were to become a WL, that wouldn't automatically grant him free access to Port Hempstead.

2, 3 and 4 are about right though.

LOL if Daralith completes his WL it might get him killed...gaining a free pass in hempsted will be the least of his worries!

[Drizzlin]

The issue I have with the whole disguise thing is that everyone should get a spot check on you. And since we dont have a GM on 24/7 how do we deal with it? You can say that just by the magnitude of the numbers alone your chance of getting spotted should be very high. So we come back to it. How do we handle this? There are many ways for you to make your way through to the port, sure. But if you intend to hang around in the center of the city, the crafting hall, the docks, or the inn getting spotted should be inevitable. The only way around that is staying invisible the whole time.

Now as for getting across the city you can go invisi, you can dress like some hero of note (if you are a female dark elf it would be easier), you can get by with a hood and well covered skin (unless you are a HG or HO). But these things would be only for pass through. And ANY PCs about should get a spot check on you. Now what do we base that spot check on? I am sure we can come up with something that works for all.

When i see a monster race in there, I send them a tell and ask what they are doing IC and mention the laws of hempsted OOC. I even do this when i'm on Daralith. I then ask for spot checks ect to see if they are out of place. It is not metagaming, as you stated they will and would stand out. Especially if they are hanging around socializing.

On this same note however, there is a flip side to the coin. In a place where every one is good, the last thing you would be thinking is that there is evil standing right next to you.

If I reach into a box of chocolates, the last thing I expect to pull out is a rock. I don't care how much a piece of chocolate in there looks like a rock...it is chocolate until I bite into it.

The hardest part IMO Is getting in the city, because they actually check you to see if you are an evil race. After that, the people within the city  would be in a state of comfort that the guards are doing their jobs. Witch hunts for evil races should be a super rare thing within the city gates. The people should have their guards down and not "Looking" at everyone they see in a corner or along the wall and think "oh dark elf that got in the city".

A begger on the streets, covered in clothing, would be looked at as a begger on the streets who probably smells and isn't worth the time to talk too. He would be left alone, not attacked, nor would it be demanded for him take off his hood because he could be a dark elf in hiding. Especially given the fact that everyone in the city knows that a dark elf isn't allowed in and would be stopped at the gates.

So again, it is dependent upon what the person is doing in the city. Either way a DM should be notified if someone on a monster race is in the city and the RP should begin! My point is no assuming on either side.

[Acacea]

((Don't worry, last un-asked for post on this subject.))

What you are failing to understand is that Dark elves, giants and orcs are not allowed anywhere in any city period. Sure you can say vehl and prantz, but even there they are not welcome or "accepted".

The only difference with hempsted is there is a sign stating the obvious. I have never had the issue of not understanding what it means to play a hated evil race. I have always know my PC is not allowed anywhere and always RPed him in hiding and sticking to the shadows rather than openly walking around as a DE, knocking on gate doors, and asking if he can play with the local children at the day care.

That is exactly the case and why those that then bring up "it makes sense for dark elves to be banned!" completely miss the point of why the sign is argued about. Real monsters are not welcomed anywhere. They are not viciously or justly oppressed in that specific city - it's laughable that a sign even exists to warn them, because a) most "monsters" don't read and b) anyone deterred by a sign is likely acceptable in a city. In this the starting city is semi-normal and represents the world at large, as a starting city should. It is in the half races that we twist it into an oppressive and twisted city, indeed worse than Prantz and probably one of our most sinister cities in game, since it hides so cleverly under a charade of good and a fake alignment, because the basic principles of an RP server - build numbers and IC rules around IC content - does not apply when DMs sweep casually over established content. It is a backwards mentality of "put something in, deal with all the tangles after," instead of "What kind of city is this? Who runs it? What kind of laws should it have?"

It's easy to say, "That's how it is now, if you want to change it, do it IC," except if half the team's major actions are spawned from OOC, they were never in character in the first place. How do we do that, we who are familiar with how the city was supposed to be represented? It is not the sign being "unfair" that is the problem, it is an upside-down implementation that is the problem. Your words and actions are what shape the world, no matter if you take care with them. That is the objection, not whether it is "fair" or not. Fair is irrelevant in-character. What is relevant is a city's actions, alignment, purpose, goals, etc. If it is to be fair, okay. If it's to oppress, okay. Making two city concepts duke it out because of a sign someone threw on the front lawn doesn't help in the consistency and believability of the world, though.

So it's not "one sign," it is an entire mentality that is okay and defensive of a mindset that with a few extra listings on one sign placed according to "mechanics before RP" and "build before content," entire alliances are shifted, factions re-arranged, and management turned upside down. With a single improvised paragraph given without a nod to what the city was, we re-introduce deep corruption and bribery in addition to scorn and hypocrisy. Without ever a glance at what we are growing it from...as if it were totally logical and intentional from the beginning. When it is politely brought up, it is first uncommented, then responded to with improvised answers with the same "answer without looking" perspective that caused it in the first place...resulting in basically a polite "deal with it IC."

What if we were playing in the setting of a thousand Layo years ago, in the era of the Dregarian empire, and someone put the wrong emperor up and then the wrong rulers and population and laws altogether? That's silly. Pay attention. If you are going to introduce content, evolve it from what is already there. If you want to bring down the empire, you first have to set the story in the middle of said empire, not overwrite it to where it never was. As well, its falling is a very big deal. It doesn't just happen with some new DMs quest or some sign someone thought was a good idea at the time. It sends impact ripples everywhere, factions change and are turned upside down, new people take over, a hundred things spring from such a thing to the point where once can't simply say to explain the "oops" sudden lack of an empire, "oh well, here is your IC answer - the emperor was assassinated and a new group took over." The response to that is... "What?? When?? Where were we?"

Likewise, this is the capital of a large kingdom, a major and influential port, and the "good" version of your starting cities. It should warrant at least a little care for representation.

It is not a request or demand for extra work, merely a highlighting that all this work is going to waste, because all we are doing is inefficiently introducing contradicting statements and opposing definitions and alignments of cities. For a few words and a harsh punishment on a sign out of character. Is it worth the IC domino effect that was not only unintended but not even thought of? It is not an opposition to change or to one sign, but an attempt to stress that all change has a beginning as well as a middle and an end - we can't just erase the first two, introduce a new 3rd, and say "It changed!" If we state on the forums that one of our shiny starting cities is NG, we should point all our efforts in representing that city towards making it properly represented, not explaining why it wasn't. Isn't that just the basic principle of measure twice, cut once? Look before leap? I would rather an "I don't know" answer than something made up really fast just to have an answer, that disregards approved canon.

"Deal with it IC?" Why not develop it IC?

In all this silly arguing since like February, has anyone looked at the information available in quest writeups since Lore is outdated? Has Ed looked at what he has on the city before answering? Has anyone asked its writer/DM in order to rationally see if this was indeed an oops with the city's representation? No... doesn't that seem odd when we are making such huge definitions with such small actions? We as players accept that our actions and inactions have consequences - we even have a CA team just for combing through every single character concept on the server lest they tread on the tiniest bit of lore. When are DM/writer/admin actions going to be treated with the same care, since those have a hundred times larger consequences? If the intended version of the city that was at the start of V3 was so disliked, perhaps we should just consider a new writer and a clean break instead of all this backwards confusion, that is all I'm saying...