The Soul Mother - Still necessary?

[jrizz]

I'd be pretty upset if Jennara permed too The world would be a lesser place indeed.

[lonnarin]

The thing that irks me is seeing somebody with more SS Reimbursements than Soul Strands.  It seems a good many people go from 1-9 quickly, and then dance from 9 and 10 and back again over and over for years on life support.  I never requested SS Reimbursement before, never saw the need to.  Lag spiked before and I just accepted the penalty.

In the end though, my characters will die at 10 lost, and others will die on their 20-25th lost.  Not a very fair system to those who don't happen to have a GM witness in the group.  Why I've always been a fan of absolutely no SS reimbursements no matter the case. Of course, I'm also a fan of no soul mother for this very reason too.

Permadeath for a lag spike is the PnP equivalent of a table-top gm spilling soda on your character sheet and saying "oops, guess he's dead".

[jrizz]

 
 Permadeath for a lag spike is the PnP equivalent of a table-top gm spilling soda on your character sheet and saying "oops, guess he's dead".

 
 
 *falls over laughing*

[HooD!uM]

i had a brisk read through this, could it be possible ( and this is just an idea) to remove a SS via temple bindstone?

example : 1 SS via a temple bindstone ONLY (unless your godlesss, then it either non compliant, or a neutral bindstone, i perfer temple diety idea mostly because your diety has a say kinda, you know what i mean ... heh)

            : not only traded for xp, but a lump sum of gold is involved, the higher the pc lvl the more xp and gold is needed

            : only once per say 6months to a year IG or RL

            : only at a temple of YOUR diety, a toranite cannot goto shadon temple etc etc etc...

            : and also perhaps a bunch of the dietys stardust....not many ppl use these that i travelled with or seen in quests, so storing some away may become uselfull in the future and would cost alot more in time.
           
            : its a toss up on godless characters tho, i mean you follow a diety for a reason, you expect your diety to protect you in some way, either in a drastic way, or very minute way, but all in all you have FAITH in your diety and to you that what counts. With godless characters, they mostly dont believe in them or care less about them, so why would a diety say speak on your behalf to the soul mother parsay..the ups and downs of a distyless PC.
just my thoughts on this.


   just an idea i had of course this could be modified by discrection of the layo team, but an idea at least, i mean isnt that why we have dietys and faith??

[Falonthas]

and why druids have the oak

not all follow a diety and are called godless

just more enlightened knowing gods are parts of the whole,not above and beyond

you know i just had a way to fix it
im going to submit to be the new soul mother with a good boy and girl list and a bad boy and girl list

which die is cast for which, depends on which i grab out the drawer

perma death works in the way it is supposed to
we evolve as players just as our characters evolve

without drogo perming i would never have had khuren to be angry enough to kill the chicken poacher human johan

every path has its set length, and how we manage the next fork is why we have fun

[Xiaobeibi]

Permadeath for a lag spike is the PnP equivalent of a table-top gm spilling soda on your character sheet and saying "oops, guess he's dead".

Funny, but sadly true as well. I have encountered spawns where the massive spell effects that go off killed my computer and subsequently my character.
Losing a DT to such a spawn hardly feels rewarding. For me it destroys my enjoyment, my immersion and will to put in an effort.

I have read the arguments for and against. I know I will always be against the current DT system for the simple reason that when my character perms then I won't be thinking of the 3-4 DTs I got because of my own actions, I will remember the 6-7 DTs I got because of lag or bugs.

I know people may argue it's the same for all. I cant speak for others but for me its deeply unsatisfying and that is all that matters for me. And no we are not all equally affected by lag - some suffer less either due to better computers, better connections etc.

I accept the system as it is because this server is run, worked and paid by other people in their time. At the same time I know that I probably wont have the time, energy nor wish for another go if I loose Galathea to lag or bugs.

[Gulnyr]

i had a brisk read through this, could it be possible ( and this is just an idea) to remove a SS via temple bindstone?

...

i mean isnt that why we have dietys and faith??

Not really, no.  Deities do different things than the Soul Mother.  It has been said before that the gods aren't involved with the Soul Strands (even though there are bindstones dedicated to them) or what the Soul Mother does, except for claiming some souls after they've paid her a postmortem visit.  The gods aren't more powerful than the Soul Mother, though they aren't necessarily weaker, either - they just don't mess with each others' business for whatever reason.

EDIT: By the way, I actually considered this for a moment when I was trying to think of some way to make the 'pay xp' idea more IC.  The separation between the gods and direct Soul Strand manipulation cut that short, though, heh.  It's a good idea generically, but it doesn't fit with the specific world lore.

[LynnJuniper]

Alright, I'm not sure if L or Dorg or Ed or whoever will be okay with me posting this. I made a sort - of promise that I wouldn't talk extensively about other servers while technically not playing here. But I think that because this is a favorable comparison, that the exception will be made

ANYWAY. I've played at Layonara for about 2.5 years. Some people may remember the Mad Mage Rhynn. Whatever. I've since left and played on 3-4 other servers, two of which extensively. These servers did not and do not support a permanent death system outside of rare Admin (Think Dorg, Ed, Orth and of course, Leanthar) approved conditioning.

It isn't a good thing, people.

People do whatever they want because they have no fear of death. There's no way to take out one's enemies (Good and evil are supported on these servers so of course there is player conflict) Because if you're evil you're just exposed as what you are , but can't do anything about the goodies that are thwarting you every step of the way because you can't perm them.

if you're good, then well, your evil arch nemesis just won't die, so they keep coming back.

Of all the things I've actually missed in leaving Layo, was the finite impermanacy of the characters here. They die. They fear death, and because they fear death, they treat situations differently then characters who can technically live forever.

Trust me guys, I never thought I'd say it either, but the Soul Mom is not a bad thing

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I'll always be in favor of the Soul Mother and perming, despite the heart ache and problems that it causes and that the system has.

I've also played on servers where PCs never run the risk of perming, unless they choose it to happen (ie You get tired of your PC).  Suffice to say I am still here, and will stay here, Soul Mother and all.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I don't think I'll venture reasons for and against, there'll be contributors to this thread far more garrulous than I willing to do so i'm sure .. however I sometimes do ponder how many people, now gone and now likely never to discover/experience the MMO when it is released, would still be here if they hadn't had their character perm. Would it be more than those few who wouldn't remain if there was an alternative introduced?

I stopped reading the thread after this, and clicked "quote."

Short and sweet? Though I tried really hard to stick with Layonara after Pyyran permed, some of the magic was gone for me... Especially with the troubles I ran into, trying to have his son carry on his final wishes. I still adore and wish the best for the community, and I'm glad that Pyyran's tale had a conclusion... But he was the character that could really, solidly keep me here. Now he's gone, and I wouldn't bring him back if I could - he died legitimately, and I (albeit not intentionally) moved on.

I may give Layonara another go - I know I'll try the MMO when it comes out. But... That's my bit for now.

[Script Wrecked]

It isn't a good thing, people.

People do whatever they want because they have no fear of death. There's no way to take out one's enemies (Good and evil are supported on these servers so of course there is player conflict) Because if you're evil you're just exposed as what you are , but can't do anything about the goodies that are thwarting you every step of the way because you can't perm them.

if you're good, then well, your evil arch nemesis just won't die, so they keep coming back.

Of all the things I've actually missed in leaving Layo, was the finite impermanacy of the characters here. They die. They fear death, and because they fear death, they treat situations differently then characters who can technically live forever.

Trust me guys, I never thought I'd say it either, but the Soul Mom is not a bad thing

Short and sweet? Though I tried really hard to stick with Layonara after Pyyran permed, some of the magic was gone for me... Especially with the troubles I ran into, trying to have his son carry on his final wishes. I still adore and wish the best for the community, and I'm glad that Pyyran's tale had a conclusion... But he was the character that could really, solidly keep me here. Now he's gone, and I wouldn't bring him back if I could - he died legitimately, and I (albeit not intentionally) moved on.

Its the roleplaying paradox.

It order to create an environment where roleplay thrives (and you don't have a lot of munchkins(1) running around with no fear of death) you have to have permadeath. However, the price of that is that in the end you kill the the characters you have grown to love (and you lose some of the roleplayers with them).

Alas, it seems you can't have your cake and eat it, even in a fantasy world...

Regards,

Script Wrecked.



(1) By the way, we probably all have a bit of munchkin in us.

[miltonyorkcastle]

By the way, we probably all have a bit of munchkin in us.

Indeed we do.

[stolen]

Just would like to point out that Jrizz's idea does not get rid of permming, just overhauls the idea.
And there have been other ideas that don't get rid of it, just overhaul it and make it a bit more "player friendly".

[EdTheKet]

As a side note: I really cant find much on the Soul Mother and the deeply invested in world lore of why she does what she does.

Correct, as Dorg stated, most has not even been disclosed to the GM team, or the MMO team for that matter.

But one thing about her is for sure based on how the system works she is Chaotic

Please don't try and put her into a D&D alignment box based on NWN mechanics

So a question on the Soul Mother formation in game creation terms - What came first the death system or the Soul Mother?

Considering Layonara started as PnP campaign long before the advent of NWN, that would be the Soul Mother.

And I'm pretty sure you could perm during Leanthar's years of PnP sessions (which were without soul strands).

There's no reward without risk

[Thief Of Navarre]

Correct, as Dorg stated, most has not even been disclosed to the GM team, or the MMO team for that matter.


Please don't try and put her into a D&D alignment box based on NWN mechanics

Correction, D&D mechanics!

Soul mother = lawful (all creatures have to observe the laws of life and death apart from liches) & chaotic (random chance of loosing a soul strand).
 Its hard to define her really imo. Both obeying universal confines and being random in her methods

[Nehetsrev]

Who says the Soul Mother's methods are random?  Sure, we see an Out-Of-Character die roll, but that's OOC.  In Character it might be explained that she simply didn't think a strand was ripe for the plucking yet.

As for the question of whether the Soul Mother is still nescessary, my answer is an absolute "yes".  I've had a couple characters die off since my start here on Layonara, and though I often miss playing them and have nostalgic thoughts about them and their past exploits, I wouldn't enjoy Layonara nearly as much if there weren't a risk of losing a character involved.

[OneST8]

The Soul Mother - Still necessary?

Yes.



*chuckles and runs away*

[Link092]

Indeed we do.

we represent, the lollipop guild....

[Link092]

I am hard pressed to pick a side in this, all because both make good points and that there is possibly a viable solution that hasn't been seen yet.

one, When I started, I lost SS like no one's business in the first few months because it was my first time playing on a RP server, and RPing in general, not to mention that playing on a server where the word easy on a creature description actually means "IMAH FIREIN" MAH LAZERS!" was very disorienting.... especially the killer deer. Even then, he got locked away, blah blah blah, so on and so forth (Which has the same effect of Perma-death, imho)... But then I made others, all whom I like much. I simply moved from one to the next. I learned from other players, and subsequently lost less SS. Idoran was ment to be a rush-in kinda guy, and he has lost less than my first PC, whom was supposed to be the careful type. a dice roll partially affected that, but we all have our days, yes?

I can't see a character perm-ing as a reason to stop playing, but then again, I haven't had a PC above lvl nine, and I seriously doubt I will ever reach 15. (and if I do, I'm likely to be 60 years old.)

Personally, I'd like to see distinction between the progress of a person training, and their status in society. as I understand, a level 4 PC is some john doe off the street, and a level 38 is this fantastic fellow that everyone knows. but I really don't know any of these high level PC's... I just know most of the lower level ones.

as far as the SM goes... of course, because she is cemented shoulder deep into the LORE.



oh, an Idea. if any have played the expansions for NWN, there was the "relic" and the rogue stones. You could drop any rolls for SS loss, and every time you dies, you lose one. -BUT- the orb has the ability to whisk one away before death's eternal grip takes hold, provided that some variable is provided, either hard earned XP (because as I see it, I couldn't catch a good chunk of XP, even if it's thrown at me), or something is "paid", such and such... this might (likely, I think. very likely) be illegal, due to copyright... so I'll just shut up now, and go do my work.

*falls asleep halfway down the stairs to get his work*

[pejsaboy]

Sure, I'm 2 1/2 months late on this, but I always have an opinion even if I don't make it known. So, do we need the soul mother?

In the NWN version of Layo, I think she is necessary because the game IS an xp based progression system. However, I can't say that I don't want her gone. If she were not in place, there would be a LOT more level 40 characters than there are. And a lot of them would be shallow characters that lived in a constant grind for xp in the toughest areas they could barely survive through. On the other hand, we all know that server lag and client crashes account for a lot of deaths, for some players/characters the majority of them. Fact is, the Aurora engine is NOT an MMO engine, which is what PW servers try to be, just on a smaller scale than the commercial MMO's. It doesn't handle tons of people and tons of items well. In that light, the soul mother can be a slap in the face when you die due to things that are hardware and software related. I can recall 1 occasion that I lost a SS due to server lag. Luckily, I was on a player led quest where that player happened to be a WL who could verify the lag along with a few other players. I don't recall if a GM witnessed it, but the strand was returned anyway. Had the WL not been present and suggested I make the reimbursal request with his support, I wouldn't have bothered. I would have been bitter about it for a good long while though. Since there is not CONSTANT GM presence on the server to watch for things like lag spikes, the return system is a flawed bandage. The graceful pleas help, but the system will never be ideal. Ultimately if the choice were given to me, I would retire the SM despite my suggestion that she is necessary for the system at hand.

For the MMO version of Layo, I would have to say that the soul mother should absolutely be gone. I can understand that it is the MMO team's right to create the game as they want it to be. I can understand the desire to keep everything IC and maintain the idea of immersion. Beyond that, I have 2 big problems with the soul mother in a commercial venture. First, I don't feel that it's acceptable to force permadeath on a paying customer. Personally, I don't care for alternate characters. Once I've decided on a character concept, I want to play that character until I decide I'm finished with it, not when someone else does. I have 2 others, but I don't play them, and I probably never will again. The second problem deals with things like hardware and software issues. In NWN, we deal with things like lag and crashes because we have to. The game just isn't any better and it can't be. When you're the creator of something though, you have to make it work correctly, especially in the case of a subscription. Denying a SS return because there wasn't a staff witness to a lag spike or a client crash just isn't a good business decision in that case. Unless lag and client-side crashing could be prevented [not possible] or at the least logged for the purpose of grievances, I, as a consumer, would not be satisfied with a permadeath system that can be influenced by hardware or software failure. As much as it is an OOC idea, it can't be ignored in a business venture.

I know this thread wasn't necessarily intended to involve the MMO, but I feel it's a relevant issue since it will still be Layonara when all is said and done.