The Soul Mother - Still necessary?

[Dorganath]

For the MMO version of Layo, I would have to say that the soul mother should absolutely be gone. I can understand that it is the MMO team's right to create the game as they want it to be. I can understand the desire to keep everything IC and maintain the idea of immersion. Beyond that, I have 2 big problems with the soul mother in a commercial venture. First, I don't feel that it's acceptable to force permadeath on a paying customer. Personally, I don't care for alternate characters. Once I've decided on a character concept, I want to play that character until I decide I'm finished with it, not when someone else does. I have 2 others, but I don't play them, and I probably never will again. The second problem deals with things like hardware and software issues. In NWN, we deal with things like lag and crashes because we have to. The game just isn't any better and it can't be. When you're the creator of something though, you have to make it work correctly, especially in the case of a subscription. Denying a SS return because there wasn't a staff witness to a lag spike or a client crash just isn't a good business decision in that case. Unless lag and client-side crashing could be prevented [not possible] or at the least logged for the purpose of grievances, I, as a consumer, would not be satisfied with a permadeath system that can be influenced by hardware or software failure. As much as it is an OOC idea, it can't be ignored in a business venture.

I know this thread wasn't necessarily intended to involve the MMO, but I feel it's a relevant issue since it will still be Layonara when all is said and done.

First off, excellent comments, questions and concerns.

I can only address some of these questions/comments at this time, but the mechanics behind the Soul Mother will be different for the MMO. The permadeath issue is one upon which we've had several lengthy conversations. There are going to be other dynamics in play in the MMO, many of which are not finalized to the point where we feel comfortable discussing them.  One thing I will say, though, is that there are plans for an in-game, in-character, lore-accurate, mechanical system by which anyone will be able to reattach lost Soul Strands for any reason (or no reason).

There is more, potentially anyway, but again, that is among the "unfinalized" and subject to change drastically.

Hope that helps.

[Script Wrecked]

Part of the function of perm-a-death is to stop everyone running around like deathless munchkins. Deathless munchkinism has a certain roleplay style... all of its own. If there was another mechanism, I'm sure we'd all love to use; there is and has been and will be a lot of heartbreak over lost characters. However, without such a mechanism, your roleplay server becomes a roll play server.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Actually, it becomes more of a Rofl-Lol Play Server...  If you know what I mean...

[Alatriel]

I've probably said it before, and I'll probably say it again.  I like the soul mother system.  I like perma death.  If I didn't like it.  I'd play WoW.  and... obviously... I don't want to play WoW.

[willhoff]

I concur on the need for the soul mother.  As much as I hate seeing that banshee hovering over Vrebel's head the system prevents people from running around with no cares of dying.  The soul mother adds realism to the game, consequences for your actions, bravery becomes true bravery, and it forces characters to group together which promotes rp and benefits the server.

[jrizz]

From another thread:

I think we should draw the following conclusion: a permanent death based on a bugged system is a bugged system of permanent death. Three gracious pleas do not change it, they only postpone it.

Wow! There are a lot of other threads on this subject and this just about sums up in a nut shell one of the biggest "against" arguments. Well said!

[EdTheKet]

Gamasutra: Rethinking Player Death

"In an editorial originally published in Game Developer magazine's November 2009 issue, editor-in-chief Brandon Sheffield considers whether traditional player death conventions have worn out their welcome, asking "why is death even part of the equation?" for games if meaningful consequences aren't built in."

Interesting read, to say the least.

[jrizz]

Great article and sections can be used to support arguments on both sides of the perma-death issue on Layo. But the short of it is that the subject games of that article were not ones where a player invests years in a single character only to lose it permanently.

If I were designing a game in which perma-death was a major part of the world make up I would work it out something like this.

1. It takes a lot to advance in power in this game (even though advancing in power is not the focus it is still a big part of any game).
2. It is a RPG and people tend to invest emotionally in characters.
3. There will be a end of life for the characters.

To make end of life work it must be fair, stable, well known, predictable, and even. This way players can plan for it, be ready with back up characters, understand their story, act in a appropriate way, and enjoy the time with their character without feeling robbed of anything. (I am sure much more can go into this)

Then I would try to find ways to meet those goals. Such as:

All characters retire/pass on/wander off into the desert (Player choice)
- one year after they top out in progression.
or
- After x amount of time
or
- after completing some life goal
or
Well you get the idea, base it on something that is the same for everyone.

The key here is to take randomness out of the equation when hitting end of life of the character. (NOTE: randomness is still part of mini-deaths and there can still be penalty attached to mini-deaths).

[Ravemore]

I just want to preface this by saying I can see the pros and cons on both sides of the argument, and am not intending to make this confrontational...

I totally disagree with the "end of life concept." Part of the beauty of this game is you can take a break at any point in time and then jump back into it when RL allows. To invest so much time and personal energy into a character with a finite life time line would ruin the game for me. Besides, it seems like it would be a pain in the rear and a resource gobbler to reconcile and track something like this, particularly with variables such as differing natural lifespans for various races, etc. etc. Also, regardless of how it could be done or implemented there would be hurt feelings, anger, and people would definitely feel robbed.

The perma death system for me works, and I know I'm probably the minority. It forces me to think, manage my risk, and make decisions accordingly. I have played one character for over three and a half years now and I believe I may have only one or two DT's, and I still have had tons of fun, and continue to do so. I don't sit on the benches all the time, I have been into the rift at least 50 or 60 times, and I have been to Firesteep many times as well. A game like this without any serious consequences or risk would just cheapen the experience from my viewpoint. I enjoy my booty puckering up when faced with danger, knowing it could be a piece of my character's life. Will I perma death at some point in time... Probably.

Mandating a set time period of character life, or time after you "top out", would be the wrong thing to do. As players we already do this for the most part on our own already. There are very few people that have not retired a character because they were bored with it, or it was just the right time to do so. I think we should leave it to the players to make these decisions.

I guess what I'm saying is the perceived danger and chance of loosing my character enriches the game for me, and if I make wise choices and am not foolish with my character's life, I want to enjoy the fruits of those labors for as long as possible.

[lonnarin]

I retired Earl just short of 90.  His best friend Cass is dead, so he's just biding his time with a mug of whiskey counting the days till ol' Harvester whisks him away to that tavern in the sky.  Till then, git off'n mah lawn!  *shakes his fist at the whippersnappers*

[Acacea]

Most of it has all been said before, but I still agree that it is not really the system that is at fault, but rather the margin of error for player and hardware. I feel that once an IC system of returns is implemented as it has been said to be in the MMO, that some of that will be alleviated - no paperwork or accusations, and it's in character.

My biggest thing, and I was really saying this to someone else and decided it was good here, is that it should be an integral part of the game and not a tacked on mechanic that can be argued over. Just the fact that we can even have this discussion (permadeath or no permadeath?) and have so many people saying that it can not only be eliminated but SHOULD be eliminated, means that it is really not tied in deeply into your game. Your lore, sure - soul mother and so on. But the game? Eh. Not really.

Make it matter, make the risk worth taking, and make something that's just cool on both sides of the fence. I mentioned a long time ago that content unlocked by how many tokens you have would be kind of cool. Certain areas that only those on their last strands may enter, equipment related to death and the soul mother that only those characters could use, alternate pathways in general that open the further down that road you go.

And ones that close. Make it a part of the experience and something that people, even when there is an IC method of returns available, may still choose to try. Imagine a guild whose only entry is to either have never lost a strand, or be on your last - with themed equipment! Their own styles of hardcore groups... never die, or be an inch from death.

I didn't take SMD, and I know Acacea is on her last strand, and I know I said I would only GP her back once because I had a good story reason for that one time. But that doesn't indicate a complete support of an awesomely implemented system. There's nothing that she or anyone else gets out of being a strand from death - it's just an eventuality for most, and it bums out the people who care a lot. It's character development, certainly, if you choose to accept it as much and roleplay accordingly. But that's all player-side. That's not enough for most people, you know?

You know she has been searching for something in particular about the soul mother for over half a century now after having stared at her on Athus' epic? Eh. She'll never find it. I wouldn't bother asking. That's not why I didn't take SMD.

But it does indicate a lack of anything related to... well, anything outside of the player with regards to death as more than just an unavoidable end of the road with nothing to see on the way. It doesn't even occur to think, "Hm, I wonder if she would have better luck now?" It's just not the mindset of the system to change with the character.

[Xaltotun]

One of my favourite characters has just lost a DT and it has left me feeling really bad. I know this is sad, but it's a measure of how much I am attached to my characters.  She has now lost 5 DTs in around 15 deaths or so (she doesn't get killed often), and I have read the chat here and am not playing the percentage game in any way, but I am annoyed by the sheer unfairness of a random roll.

Then I started to return to a normal frame of mind and an idea occurred to me.
Some people have been killed lots of times and lost a few strands.
Some people have been killed a lot of times and lost a lot of strands.
Some people struggle to not get killed, yet due to a 'bad' roll, lose strands.

So I wondered this: what about making some sort of mechanism that actually restores your soul strands if you don't get killed. This way, if you get killed a lot, you will lose soul strands and eventually perm out. If however, you  learn some lessons and do not die for a certain length of time or xps gained for instance, you will recover your latest loss. If you get killed and lose a strand before recovering the previous one, the counter starts from scratch again.

This would allow people with 9 tokens to realistically continue to play with the possibility of recovery, rather than the likelihood of perming. It would also, although belatedly in her case, allow characters to join Acacea's suggestion of the "Zero SS" club.

Thoughts?

[jrizz]

There is certainly precedent for the restoration of SS from the SM. But it would severely belittle the great achievement of the WL who made that occur on a mass scale. Yes it was long ago and that player no longer plays here but we should still honor the achievement none the less.

That being said I do agree with you that a restoration system based on merit (SS meritocracy) would be great but it is very clear that a SS restoration system for NWN layo will not occur. I think we can rest assured that in the upcoming MMO we will see a very different death system but still based around the SM.


NOTE: GDC is next week! I will be there whoo hooo. Good time to unveil a new MMO

[Gulnyr]

Thinking exercises are good for us.  Even if it doesn't help NWN, it's worth talking it through.  Like this part:

If however, you  learn some lessons and do not die for a certain length of time or xps gained for instance, you will recover your latest loss.

There are two systems there, the length-of-time system and the xp-gained system.

For length-of-time:

• How is the time measured?  Real life months?  In-game hours?
• Does the character have to be active for the time to count or will it be possible to simply not log in with a character and safely regrow strands?  
• What constitutes "active?"  For example, if a character were required to be in-game for X hours without dying to regrow a strand, would it be okay to park the character in a forgotten corner of some town overnight while the player sleeps?
• Is the solution fair to both highly active and casual players?  Is it fair to those with many alts and those who focus on a single character?

For xp-gained:

• Is the xp required constant or does it vary by level?
• How is quest xp balanced against "bashy" xp?  Quests are often peaceful and by far the fastest way to gain xp for most characters.
• Would the xp solution be fair to those players who can make lots of quests and those players who can make very few?

The main ideas to keep in mind are that details are good (though loose frameworks like the idea here are a good start), simple is better than complex (though some complexity may be required), and the fix for an "unfair" system should be sparklingly fair (if not for the sake of fairness, then at least to avoid hypocrisy).

[jrizz]

If you look at them together then you can start to address some of the great questions you raised.

In a meritocracy you gain position by participation and achievement. So to address this I would look at a formula that takes into account:

time played (in a period of time, overall, consecutive)
XP gained (in a period of time and overall)

then you could gain merit based on a few different play types. Questers gain merit for questing, bashers for bashing, casual RPers for being there

My point being that no one play type is better or more worthy of merit then another. Wow equality, what a concept LOL.

[Gulnyr]

It is a great concept, heh, but it's complicated and there aren't many details.  

• How is who does what tracked?  Does someone have to watch?  Is there a script that has to be writen to monitor every character?
• Is time or xp more important, or do they vary based on how much of each is used/gained?  Is more xp over less time more or less meritorious than more xp over more time?  Is less xp over more time "better" than more xp over more time?  Are we going to need a chart or an equation to work it out?
• Does "being there" include parking in a corner overnight? I'm guessing no, but it goes back to how things are tracked.

[jadewillow]

Probably the easiest thing to do if the team was anywhere near taking this seriously, would be to make the number GPs available dependent on the length a character has been active. For example, award one every 5 levels. Or base it on real time, one every 4 months etc.

You get the idea.

[jrizz]

1. Yes it can all be coded. I am hoping the MMO is created on a game engine that opens C or C++ coding up to the builders and is not script based.
2. A mix of both xp and time but set to archatypical play styles.
3. Activity is trackable.

This is just coding really and as long as you have a model you can code to it. So that means the real hard item is number 2, setting the models.

[Chongo]

Just lightly blend it, one hair and some air.

[jadewillow]

Lol--