Sacred Fist versus Monk

[hyme]

Please to excuse my ignorance

What is the difference between::

Sacred Fist

and

Monk



:p

[Thief Of Navarre]

I can tell you sacred fists are monks who DONT use weapons, not even monk weapons. They progress in both heart and mind as a monk and as a cleric drawing from an inner fire neither class manages to harness!

May not be relevent to Layonara but I believe they were in the Oriental Adventures D&D source book. This is how layonara treats them: LORE: Sacred Fist  I assume the Sacred Fire feat refers to the Inner will I refered to..

*edit* Sorry, forgot this was 'Ask a gamemaster'. Ill try not to post in here again

[Hellblazer]

Sacred Fist is for clerics that deeply envy monks it's not for monk it self. As you need to be able to cast devine spells of the first level. Which to my knowledge is not the case of monks.
 
 So basically you have a cleric who runs around as a pseudo monk, with the ability to cast his clerical spells, but will be missing some of the best trade of the monks. But he gets some abilities that the monks doesn't get. Example, the sacred fist will never get a cold for walking bare footed in the snow. he just has to call on his sacred flame. :p
 
 Warning.. just a humourious way of putting the difference mechanically of the two class. RP wise see below as I never really researched the RP stand point between the two.

[ycleption]

The difference is both mechanical and RP

Mechanically, sacred fists can't wield any weapons, having "creature" weapons, and get a few different feats (including uncanny dodge, which monks wish they had...)

From an RP point of view, sacred fists have divine power, and there are certain orders (such as the [lore]Legacy of the mailed fist[/lore]) that support a sacred fist as a class choice with RP meaning. There are monk orders, and many monks may see themselves as having gifts from a deity (Jennara is a great example of that), sacred firsts are much more explicitly bound with the worship of a specific god.

[miltonyorkcastle]

*edit* Sorry, forgot this was 'Ask a gamemaster'. Ill try not to post in here again

Answer away! Just don't be surprised or too bummed if a GM chimes in and shoots down whatever you said. :p

[Xiaobeibi]

The difference is both mechanical and RP

Mechanically, sacred fists can't wield any weapons, having "creature" weapons, and get a few different feats (including uncanny dodge, which monks wish they had...)

Which sadly makes them unable to use a lot of crafting tools like chisels.

I love this class and wanted to go this way untill I found out about that little issue.

[Hellblazer]

Does it really? I think it's the same like rangers and wearing armor that are heavier than what the Dual-wield requires. You lose the ability as long as you use a weapon.
 
 What I mean here, is that as long as you hold a chisel, then you can not use the sacred fist abilites. But then when you lose the chisel, the abilites comes back in action. Dorg could comfirm this though.

[Xiaobeibi]

Sadly no - you can't use your hands for shields, weapons or tools when you got "creature weapon".

[Xiaobeibi]

LORE: Sacred Fist

"Special: Once a person starts his training as a sacred fist, he can never again wield a shield or weapon. Even after leaving this class at a later time. In NWN terms this excludes the use of the left and right hands, which means they will be unable to do any tradeskill that requires the equipping of a weapon or tool. Nonequiped weapons or tool usage such as shovels are still possible."

[Hellblazer]

Ah thanks for the clarification. Seems like a class that should be on the black list for Dorandites. The same as Skald is for Ilsare.

[Gulnyr]

Mechanically speaking:

• Sacred Fist is a PrC.  Monk isn't.
• Sacred Fists have to be Clerics first (or Paladins, I guess, since they cast divine spells), which means they must worship a god on Layonara. Monks don't have to have a god in the deity blank.  
• Sacred Fists can be any alignment (though obviously within one step of their respective deities' alignments). Monks must be Lawful.
• Sacred Fists have high Reflex and Will saves.  Monks have high saves on all three.
• Sacred Fists retain Spellcraft as a class skill, but lack Hide, Move Silently, Parry, and Gather Info (at least according to LORE).  Reverse those lists for Monks.
• Sacred Fists use the best BAB progression chart.  Monks use the middle chart.
• The Puissant Fists ability gives Sacred Fists an eventual 1d12 damage punch.  A Medium sized Monk eventually has a 1d20 damage punch.  Small Monks eventually have a 2d6 damage punch.  
• Sacred Fists get the lovely Uncanny Dodge.  Monks don't.
• Sacred Fists get Blind Fight, Evasion, and Combat Casting for free, and Improved Unarmed Strike is a prerequisite for the class.  Monks get tons of feats for free, including Improved Unarmed Strike.
• Sacred Fists have to use a feat if they want Stunning Fist.  Monks get Stunning Fist for free, and it's better than the basic version a Sacred Fist would buy (by a lot - check the link).
  
  
• A Sacred Fist can use the Sacred Flame ability to add fire and divine damage to attacks twice per day.  A Monk has to rely on whatever happens to be on his gloves.
• The Sacred Fist's No Shadow Blows is analogous to the Monk's Ki Strike, but the LORE page doesn't say how it progresses.  Also, No Shadow Blows stops progressing after level 20, so a Sacred Fist who hasn't reached level 8 in the PrC before then won't get the benefit at all.  A Monk can take additional feats beyond the three free levels (up to +5) without worry for level limits.
• The Sacred Fist's Inner Armor ability is a thrice per day, low-powered catch-all for some of the Monk's standard, always-on abilities.  It grants a Dodge AC bonus, a bonus to saves, and some Spell Resistance for a short while.  Monks add their Wisdom bonus to their AC all the time, have immunity to Disease and Poison, have resistance and eventually immunity to Mind-Affecting spells, and constant SR that increases every level.  All that comes over time, of course.
• Sacred Fists are missing a lot of the free goodies that come with being a Monk, but they can cast spells and they get bonus spells at every even numbered level as if they had gained a level as a Cleric (or Paladin...).
• Sacred Fists can't use weapons or tools that are actually held by the character.  So, shovels are in and needles are out, mechanically speaking, as far as I'm aware.  Monks can use whatever their feats allow.

[ycleption]

Ah thanks for the clarification. Seems like a class that should be on the black list for Dorandites.

Keep in mind the RP prohibition is against using weapons, the mechanical part includes crafting tools. There's no reason a Dorandite couldn't RP crafting, any more than it would be prohibited for a Dorandite to RP being a wheelwright, because its not mechanically possible to do so.

[Hellblazer]

Aye, but as most things, there has to be a show ingame of one faith dogma. If the dorandite can't show it for himself IG, then he is not following his dogma. I'm not sure how the gms would apply that mechanical unability to show IG the crafting a dorandite would have to do as part as their faith. But personally, and note that this is a personal thought, it may be a class that should be on the black list of that faith.
 
 Unlike skald that could still worship and produce beauty, but because how they apply their voice in combat, they can never become an ilsarian or stay one. The Dorandite that becomes a sacred fist, loses all abilities to show their hard work as their faith IG. Thing that I am sure could have a work around, if the team had the time to work it out.
 
 I'll leave the how a gm would interprete that to the gm. But for myself, one has to be able to show IG his faith in all manners.

[Xiaobeibi]

Mechanically speaking:

• Sacred Fists are missing a lot of the free goodies that come with being a Monk, but they can cast spells and they get bonus spells at every even numbered level as if they had gained a level as a Cleric (or Paladin...).

thats just spells right not caster level or is it? That makes a big difference

[Gulnyr]

Right.  Not increased duration or any other caster level benefits, only bonus spells.

[hyme]

*bows*

All of your input helps clarify this immensely !!

Thank you everyone !!

[gilshem ironstone]

Once a Sacred Fist gains access to a new spell level via bonus spells, do they have the ability to memorize spells at that level?  Or can they only use meta-magic feats for lower-level spells?