The World of Layonara  Forums

Author Topic: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically allowable by the skin?  (Read 2427 times)

SteveMaurer

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2009, 05:46:17 PM »
Quote from: Dorganath
Actually, no.  Unless a half-elf explicitly requests (and is approved for) the elven ear, they don't speak it, well or otherwise.  The statement in the rules about being able to understand it is due to a hook in the language processing code that translates Elvish for half-elves.

Wait a minute.  Does that mean that if I made a half-elf whose bio stated they were raised entirely by humans, they'd be able to understand elvish, even without the "ear" due to this hook?

Now I'm really confused.    O.o
 

Dorganath

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2009, 06:09:33 PM »
Mechanically, yes.  RP-wise, you should ignore it.

EDIT: Though following the D&D conventions for a moment, elven mothers are known to "commune" with and speak to their children in utero, which has the result of elven children being well able to understand the language even shortly after birth. This isn't necessarily how we do things, but it's conceivable to have a half-elf character, born of an elven mother, who has some understanding of the language due to something similar.

In any case, the matter for half-elves is largely a matter of RP until they actually attain the elven ear.  I know at least one half-elven character who ignores elvish spoken in her midst.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2009, 06:30:22 PM »
Quote from: Dorganath
Mechanically, yes.  RP-wise, you should ignore it.

EDIT: Though following the D&D conventions for a moment, elven mothers are known to "commune" with and speak to their children in utero, which has the result of elven children being well able to understand the language even shortly after birth. This isn't necessarily how we do things, but it's conceivable to have a half-elf character, born of an elven mother, who has some understanding of the language due to something similar.

In any case, the matter for half-elves is largely a matter of RP until they actually attain the elven ear.  I know at least one half-elven character who ignores elvish spoken in her midst.

Rebuttal: Human mother, elvish father.
 

Dorganath

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2009, 06:50:46 PM »
Quote from: Stephen_Zuckerman
Rebuttal: Human mother, elvish father.

Thus the example of someone ignoring Elvish spoken around her. :)

And I also said "conceivable". ;)
 

SteveMaurer

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2009, 07:55:31 PM »
Quote from: Dorganath
Thus the example of someone ignoring Elvish spoken around her. :)

I'm not arguing policy, it's the mechanics that I find interesting.   Why did you add a special coding hook for this one race?    I would think that the easier way to do a "understand language only" type PC, from a strictly mechanical point of view, would be to hand out "Ears" with a GM admonition to not speak through it, kind of the way that you can (but are admonished not to) speak words through familiars.

That way, you could have, well, theoretically anyone with this kind of thing.   I can even imagine as a PC tries to learn a new language, having a listen-only ear would be rather natural.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2009, 08:23:06 PM »
Actually, the half elf will -only- understand the language with a score under 12, if the mother is the elf. For having heard the language from his/her mother in the womb he/she will udnerstand it, but will not be able to speak it. That's the rp that was said in the past by Ed if I remember correctly. IF how ever the father is the elf, then the half elf will not RP wise, be able to understand the language. Which means that even -if- he receive the translation, he should not act upon it.
 
 
 edit: BAH i should stop replying message while I talk with clients, because by the time I press submitt, the message is already typed by someone else *sighs deeply*

lonnarin

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2009, 08:52:14 PM »
Quote from: Dorganath
Mechanically, yes.  RP-wise, you should ignore it.

EDIT: Though following the D&D conventions for a moment, elven mothers are known to "commune" with and speak to their children in utero, which has the result of elven children being well able to understand the language even shortly after birth. This isn't necessarily how we do things, but it's conceivable to have a half-elf character, born of an elven mother, who has some understanding of the language due to something similar.

In any case, the matter for half-elves is largely a matter of RP until they actually attain the elven ear.  I know at least one half-elven character who ignores elvish spoken in her midst.


As a goblin who absolutely could not have elven upon creation under any circumstances no matter how many times I reworded my bio, even when I made a dark elf mentor in one revision, I would be very annoyed if half-elves were allowed to RP knowing elven from being in utero.  Grovel spent over 4 years torturing elven children and rangers and could not learn a single word, and elves get womb-translation magic?  No way.  If that's the case, he'll start RPing that he understands the halfling language from tapping into the spirit of the collective shortness.

If you don't have the ear, you don't know the language.  Period.  If however we start allowing those who are mechanically able to understand the language but don't have the biographical justification, long years of study and access to the language, then we cheapen the whole concept.  Please do not RP knowing a language without the ear or training.
 

Dorganath

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2009, 09:04:11 PM »
Quote from: SteveMaurer
I'm not arguing policy, it's the mechanics that I find interesting.   Why did you add a special coding hook for this one race?    I would think that the easier way to do a "understand language only" type PC, from a strictly mechanical point of view, would be to hand out "Ears" with a GM admonition to not speak through it, kind of the way that you can (but are admonished not to) speak words through familiars.

That way, you could have, well, theoretically anyone with this kind of thing.   I can even imagine as a PC tries to learn a new language, having a listen-only ear would be rather natural.

I can't speak to why it was done or if it was "added" at all intentionally.  We use the DMFI language system, which was put in place long before I did any development work at all.  I've known about it for some time, and haven't seen a reason to change it, nor has it been requested by .

So yes, we could close this hook, but for all the things that are worthy of our limited development time, this one's pretty low on the radar and its impact is pretty minimal. We could also do "listen only" ears, but again, we are spending dev time on something that's already handled quite well with RP.

Incidentally, it's fully my intention to have a "learning" system in the MMO for languages, where the degree of comprehension one has directly impacts the translation that is displayed.  For example, maybe someone only catches one out of every ten words (at random, on average) at first, but as time and exposure goes on, that increases.  Eventually it's one out of every five, or one out of every three and so forth until 100% mastery of the language has been achieved.
 

SteveMaurer

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2009, 02:45:22 PM »
Well, now that I know what is actually going on, I need to revise my suggestion for how this section should be written.

Quote
Certain races and classes receive default language ears on creation. Elves receive an elf ear. Dwarves receive the dwarven ear.  Dark elves receive both the elf and dark elf ear. Sea Elves get the elf and underwater ear. Druids and rangers start with the animal ear, while rogues start with the ability to use thieves' cant. Certain clerics may also begin with the animal ear depending on domain.  Also, as a special case, the game engine grants half-elves the ability to understand things spoken through the elf ear, even if they don't have one.

Depending on your approved biography, these ears may not be appropriate for your character.  In this case, you are expected to ask a GM on the GM channel to remove the ear from your inventory.   At a certain degree of proficiency, when learning a new language, you may also be given an ear, but told not to speak through it (except, perhaps very simple words and phrases).  And rarely, with an extensive approved biography that justifies it, your PC will receive a non-default ear after character creation, but these will never be extremely rare languages such as Draconic, Abyssal, or Infernal.
 
The normal default ears are not considered a bonus language, but still follow the same rules as common. For example, an INT 8 elf understands
common and elvish, but speaks both very poorly.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2009, 04:41:23 PM »
I'm in the midst of a (mostly cosmetic) formatting overhaul for the [LORE]Character Submission[/LORE] page, so if the admins/CAs like what you've written above, I'll use it.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2009, 06:43:44 PM »
Quote from: lonnarin
If you don't have the ear, you don't know the language. Period. If however we start allowing those who are mechanically able to understand the language but don't have the biographical justification, long years of study and access to the language, then we cheapen the whole concept. Please do not RP knowing a language without the ear or training.
 
 I know someone on this forum that would be able to comfirm what I am about to say, but it has been a discusion for many years with teachers and also specialist that at comparation of the same age, a child will have a easier time to learn the language of his mother, than the language of the parents that would have adopted him who would not speak the same language. So if this is already a debate in RL, I fail to see how it could not be applied into a fantasy world.

minerva

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2009, 09:45:00 PM »
Ears given by mechanics cannot be removed by GMs - they will be reloaded into the character's inventory at subsequent logins.
 

lonnarin

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2009, 03:52:14 AM »
Quote from: Hellblazer
I know someone on this forum that would be able to comfirm what I am about to say, but it has been a discusion for many years with teachers and also specialist that at comparation of the same age, a child will have a easier time to learn the language of his mother, than the language of the parents that would have adopted him who would not speak the same language. So if this is already a debate in RL, I fail to see how it could not be applied into a fantasy world.


Because if a person who speaks Swahili knocks up a lady in Kentucky who only speaks English, and that child grows up in Kentucky only ever hearing English, he will NOT understand Swahili when he's 20!

No womb linguistics!  Your example presupposes that there is SOME time spent learning the language as a baby that has already been born and taught to some degree.  That should be detailed in the bio.  But if an elf gets a human pregnant in Hempstead then runs off and never teaches any elven to his half-elven son or daughter, they will not learn any elven.  If a human gets an elf woman pregnant and she raises the child to the age of 20 speaking elven, well, there's 20 years of linguistic training detailed in the bio.

This is all an issue of game mechanics, not any linguistic science that allows half elves with zero exposure to elven language understanding elven.  Half-orcs understand orcish as well.  But, if there is ZERO exposure to a language anywhere in the life of the child, there should be zero understanding of said language until they actually are exposed to and study it.

Again, Grovel spent 4 years in his many bio revisions learning elven by the following: torturing elven rangers the worgs had caught (no! they would NEVER teach him elven!) ok, how about torturing children with like -4 will saves? (No! never never never! Elven children have natural 20s on all will saves!).  Ok, then he met a dark elf ranger in the woods who he befriended and he taught him elven to help prey on the elves (no! all dark elves would kill grovel on sight! no elven!).  So if all of these explanations are insufficient to learn elven, then I think womb-baby-magic or genetics should also be rejected.

I make an effort to pretend that grovel can't speak halfling, as did another half-orc who Kor used to try and taunt in orcish. On that note, half-elves raised by humans who never heard elven should make an effort to not RP that they understand languages that they do not. And if you do have some time in your early childhood where you did learn some elven, then request the elven ear!

The only leniency I might support is if the extra languages per intelligence bonus rules were lessened a bit so that half-elves with 10 intelligence or less were raised by both human and elven parents got elven as a language, but only then it would be a result of growing up learning elven.  It would not be due to being in the womb or genetics, but from years of study comparable to any other character race attempting to learn elven.  And such should always be detailed in the bio of the submitted character and requested through the proper channels already in place.  As it is now, half-orcs with 10 intelligence or less raised by human parents never get to RP knowing orcish, so why give the elves preferential treatment?
 

SteveMaurer

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2009, 05:59:38 PM »
Quote from: minerva
Ears given by mechanics cannot be removed by GMs - they will be reloaded into the character's inventory at subsequent logins.


Ghuhhhh.   OK.  You learn something new.   Revision #3.  Hopefully the last, unless there is some new surprise I don't know...

Quote
Certain races and classes receive default language ears on creation. Elves receive an elf ear. Dwarves receive the dwarven ear. Dark elves receive both the elf and dark elf ear. Sea Elves get the elf and underwater ear. Druids and rangers start with the animal ear, while rogues start with the ability to use thieves' cant.  Also, as a special case, the game engine grants half-elves the ability to understand things spoken through the elf ear, even if they don't have one.

Depending on your approved biography, these default ears may not be appropriate for your character.   In this case, you are expected not to use the ear, or read the automatic translation provided by the game engine of words said in the ear's language.   You must do this because at present, there is no technical way for GMs to permanently remove a default ear or stop the automatic elvish translation for half-elves.

Certain biographies, if approved, may call for non-default ears.  For example, certain clerics may also begin with the animal ear, if they take the animal domain.   In this case, you must write on the GM channel to get the ear.  Note that no biography will ever be approved that allows a PC to start with a rare languages, such as Draconic, Abyssal, or Infernal.  These can only be learned in game.

Learning a language in game usually requires one to find another PC to teach it to you.   Learning languages from NPCs nearly always requires a CDQ, or possibly even an WLDQ, and it is a slow process.  Your PC will spend a number of game years without the ear.   When you are finally granted one, you are expected to speak only very simple words and phrases, or not at all.

Default ears are not considered a bonus language, but still follow the same rules as common. For example, an INT 8 elf understands common and elvish, but speaks both very poorly.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Is it allowable to create PCs that use feats not technically
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2009, 06:15:08 PM »
Quote
unless there is some new surprise I don't know...


Ahh, the wonders of mechanical nuances. Now you know why I'm constantly updating LORE. I've been here for years, and I'm still finding new quirks.
 

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2026, SimplePortal