Is a familiar attacking you considered in-game or a bug?

[SteveMaurer]

Darthirâe recently was trying out to see how well she (or rather, her minions) could do against giants.  

She cast Ultravision on her panther, and then Darkness, to protect it.  At this, the panther turned around and swiped at her.   Double teamed by her own familiar and the giant, she quickly died.

She made her save vs the Soul Mother, but my question is this: is your familiar killing you something that is supported in Layonaran lore or is this considered a bug?

[Chongo]

Whenever I cover my cat with a blanket she leaves me bleeding.

[twidget658]

Darkness is considered an attack. The familiar attacked you because you attacked it. So it thought. Bug? Not really, I would think. It is the limitations of the mechanics. And as always, I may be out to lunch on this.

[Eorendil]

It is considered an attack.

[Dorganath]

What they said.

Or perhaps more precisely, it's considered a "hostile action" and NPC AI, regardless of being a summon, familiar, commoner NPC or any other normally non-hostile faction will see it as aggression.

So to answer your end question: Neither.  That your familiar attacked you is a function of game AI.  There's really no lore basis for it, and if this was a PnP gaming experience, the familiar would not have done that.

So the suggestion I have is to pretty much ignore it on an IC level and chalk it up to an "oops".

[Hellblazer]

Would there be a way to always set the summons and companion/familiar to friendly, no matter what the area settings are?

[SteveMaurer]

So to answer your end question: Neither.  That your familiar attacked you is a function of game AI.  There's really no lore basis for it, and if this was a PnP gaming experience, the familiar would not have done that.

So the suggestion I have is to pretty much ignore it on an IC level and chalk it up to an "oops".

Well, anything that is a non-LORE artifact of the NwN game engine that's chalked up to an "oops", I consider a "bug" (or unexpected, unwanted, "feature").  If Darthirâe had lost a Soul Strand over on this, it sounds like I would have reason to ask for a reimbursement (subject to documentation limits).

Now, a couple more game engine questions:

Is the Darkness "attack" something that is only happens when the spell is cast, or whenever someone goes into the area of effect?   In other words, if Darthirâe casts Ultravision on her panther, casts darkness in the distance, and then her panther runs into the darkness, does it then want to attack her?   Or is the darkness now considered an established effect, and not an attack?

If an established Darkness isn't an attack, is it any different for established fields that do damage such as wall of fire?

Is this any different for fields to which the familiar is completely immune, such as Mind Blank and Fear?   I seem to recall not having this problem using that combination, but perhaps I was mistaken.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Everytime you enter a field of darkness, initiaive is rolled (even if you're the caster). Now, whether that is interpreted as an attack usually depends on whether the effect was targeted directly at the creature or not. That is, if you target an area with the AoE spell rather than a creature, you did not directly attack the creature, and often the AI will then not intepret you as the assailant. However, this is not a perfect course of action. How the NWN NPC AI determines hostile actions has its inconsistencies.

[davidhoff]

Hi Lady Z,

I'm sure you thought of this, but I'd go into the Arena with your cat and summons and run through all your different attack and buff up scenarios and see what reactions you get.

My personal experience with this is my cat killed me once when I cast darkness ahead of me and then walked myself and my cat into the darkness.  She attacked me twice more on different occasions, so I had her put to sleep.  Also, Vrebel's Barbarian has attacked me a couple times, once when I cast color spray on it and the other I can't remember.  My Skeleton Warrior who is immune to poison attacked Vrebel once when he threw a choke powder at the ground we were fighting on.

So, in conclusion, I almost never cast area effect spells when summons are out; and if I do, then I have my trigger finger on unsummon.

Hope that helps,

Tralek

[SteveMaurer]

Ah, yes, Tralek,  but is the arena an appreciably different environment than countryside?

It seems there is different behavior when an enemy is present.   When one is not, my panther seems quite relaxed and unwilling to harm me, even when she falls under an area of effect spell.

We experimented with this, do you recall?  At the time, it did not seem as if Vanorsh was upset at a great many things.

[davidhoff]

I remember, Vanorsh behaved very good that day.  But, that was in town, Stort I believe, so since it's not a PVP area then Vanorsh might have been on her best behavior.

I also am suspect that the Arena may not exactly duplicate hostile countryside where enemies are nearby or present.  I can't confirm this, but it is a suspision of mine.

You might want to test your spells and buff-ups in a hostile countryside that isn't that difficult (kabold's guarding the aloe comes to mind) and use a less dangerous companion, like a badger for example.

Tralek

[Dorganath]

Well, anything that is a non-LORE artifact of the NwN game engine that's chalked up to an "oops", I consider a "bug" (or unexpected, unwanted, "feature").  If Darthirâe had lost a Soul Strand over on this, it sounds like I would have reason to ask for a reimbursement (subject to documentation limits).

Not exactly. It's not really a "bug" even as what you term an "artifact" of the NWN engine. It's how the AI reacts to hostile actions.  Is Bioware's AI the best?  Absolutely not, but it's what we have, and short of rewriting it ourselves, it's a characteristic of the system.

But regardless, our current reimbursement policy only considers Layonara bugs as cause for a "free" reimbursement. Bioware issues, whether true "bugs" (like Invisibility or G. Sanc.) or quirks in the system (like resting with CON buffs and low HPs) are only reimburseable through Graceful Pleas.

Now, a couple more game engine questions:

Is the Darkness "attack" something that is only happens when the spell is cast, or whenever someone goes into the area of effect?   In other words, if Darthirâe casts Ultravision on her panther, casts darkness in the distance, and then her panther runs into the darkness, does it then want to attack her?   Or is the darkness now considered an established effect, and not an attack?

If an established Darkness isn't an attack, is it any different for established fields that do damage such as wall of fire?

Is this any different for fields to which the familiar is completely immune, such as Mind Blank and Fear?   I seem to recall not having this problem using that combination, but perhaps I was mistaken.

At design time, spells are flagged as "hostile", and I'm 95% certain it is this designation in spells.2da that the AI uses to determine if it should react negatively to a spell cast upon it or not. Whether that triggers as a "hostile" act only on the "impact" of the spell or during the duration for time-based AoE spells I am not certain.

While it is not "normal" for one's familiar to turn on its master/mistress to the point of killing its master/mistress, that too is a characteristic of NWN AI.  It is, however, perfectly reasonable that said familiar would get upset after having been fireballed, so turning around and giving you a "nip" is very much within reason.

As has been said, if ever you're tossing AoE spells out around summons, familiars and animal companions, then defintely keep a finger on the "Unsummon" button.

[Dorganath]

You might want to test your spells and buff-ups in a hostile countryside that isn't that difficult (kabold's guarding the aloe comes to mind) and use a less dangerous companion, like a badger for example.

Or just avoid hitting your familiar with non-buff, non-beneficial area-of-effect spells.

[Chazzler]

I have used darkness with Summon Creature IX (Mithril Golem) many times, though I have never casted on-to my summon, as per clicking the darkness cast onto it, instead I always target the ground between or next to the foes.

The summon has not yet attacked me.
In the original campaigns and on some other servers and perhaps even in Layo, I have gotten my familiar and familiar only as I can remember to attack me with the use of duration having AoE spells, such as the many cloud spells, darkness etc.
Though I think some fireballs have aggraveted the familiar as well.
I don't think I've ever gotten struck by a summon though, but it's a possiblity!

I would recommend targeting the ground next to the foes with the spell and see how the familiar reacts then.
Cheers.

[SteveMaurer]

I have used darkness with Summon Creature IX (Mithril Golem) many times, though I have never casted on-to my summon, as per clicking the darkness cast onto it, instead I always target the ground between or next to the foes.

The summon has not yet attacked me.

I have noticed the same thing.  One of the reasons why I was surprised by the attack was because I've done this many times with a summons and never had a problem.

I appreciate Dorg's perspective, but it sure looks like a bug to me.   More research is needed.

[Dorganath]

I appreciate Dorg's perspective, but it sure looks like a bug to me.   More research is needed.

If it is a bug, it is because Bioware did not distinguish the behavior of summons, familiars and companions from that of unaffiliated NPCs.  That may also have been a design-time choice and that this behavior is in fact exactly as they want it to be.

Keep in mind that NWN was not meant for use as a multi-player persistent world (PW).  It was meant as a single-player or multi-player, single-party sort of game, where the default, and most anticipated configuration would be that everyone's on the same side.  In the NWN OC and expansion packs, pretty much all areas were set to let partied NPCs (henchmen, familiars, etc.) be not affected by "hostile" AoE spell effects (or at least does in my memory).  This could be changed by the difficulty level setting of course or by module settings or area settings, but those latter two are design-time thigns that can't really be altered by the general player at runtime for the Bioware-supplied modules.

In any case, my earlier comment stands.  If this were to occur again and one's familiar killed one's character, it would not be freely refundable under our policies and would require a Graceful Plea.

[SteveMaurer]

No problem, Dorg.   Layonara is your baby, so I play by your rules.