Warning: Rabid Opinion. Beware of Debate. ;-)

[Pseudonym]

Chanda
 Perago
 Duur
 Vin
 Jharl
 Muireann
 Enzo
 Quintaine
 Celgar
 Ramanon
 Buppi
 Bilvikki
 Hargnar
 Bumblebee
 Lia
 Marcus
 Derrick
 
 few more than 10 - some are over the 20 mark but they made their mark before they ever hit 20
 It wasn't all that difficult but the odd thing is they are players not here at all or much any more and most started before leveling past 20 was permitted without significant world involvement.
 Of course this is just my 2 true.

Not a single one still played. Is that because they weren't made to feel epic (from their own perspective)? Or, is it that GMs used to recognise pre-20th lvl achievement but no longer do? Why are they all characters from the (distant) past? Dunno the answer there, just food for thought.

[akata]

Epic levels do not make an epic character, but an epic character must be epic level.
If not your character skills/abilities simply don't match the reguirement to be epic

[geloooo]

My main driving force when attempting to gain levels is so that I can handle far more dangerous tasks when role playing with others. Ni'haer sees them as competition and he desires to stay ahead or at least outrun them.

Quite frankly, my driving force has fizzled due to the fact that Ni'haer is now epic and yet he isn't really all that powerful nor is he that influential. It's twice as hard for him to gain influence and power due to what he is and his hideous nature, but I still try to go behind the scenes and try to get something done. Of course, the amount of time one devotes to playing and interacting with the populace is a factor to how your character develops, and I suppose it's just my new timezone that's making me miss all the nifty plot stuff. Just my 10 cents.

[Xiaobeibi]

Not a single one still played. Is that because they weren't made to feel epic (from their own perspective)? Or, is it that GMs used to recognise pre-20th lvl achievement but no longer do? Why are they all characters from the (distant) past? Dunno the answer there, just food for thought.

The original founders of Raven Trade company should be on the list as should Dezzas male roffie knight (sorry I am terrible with names) etc etc

Because when most (nearly all) are below level 20, the characters you remember also - incidentally - happen to be below level 20.

Because these were played a long time ago under different circumstances in a different campaign so I am not sure how relevant they are with regards to the current state. The foes you meet on open quests today, the character composition with regards to levels etc. all make it that much harder to be "epic" (in the heroic or influential aspect) at lower levels today.

I love Carrillons list, but I would add "memorable". Then I could easily add to Minervas list with currently below level 20 characters. BUT, I don't think memorable makes epic in itself. Hence I don't think we can compare a list of memorable characters from the past with the question of what makes "epic" now. Different times, different circumstances!

[Alatriel]

While I agree with some things that some people are saying, I also disagree with others, but that is the nature of debate.  Mostly I think we need to not focus so much on what characters USED to be our epic heroes.  We can't look at the world of this game saying "Oh, I'll never be as good as [insert name here]".  We'd never get anywhere.  We start at level one.  All of us.  Every single one whether we started yesterday or four years ago.  And each character grows every time we play them, or at least they should.  Yes, rp is very important.  Does that mean I think you should sit in town and talk all day and never do anything else?  No.  Why?  Because we don't play commoners, we play adventurers.  If you never adventure, you're not an adventurer.  Is it okay for the people that choose to sit in town and talk all day and never venture out?  Sure.  Why?  Because obviously they enjoy it.  Some people play quiet characters, some people play loudmouths, some people play both.  Some people would rather just go bash things and soak up xp and items and gold and are in a race to get to lvl 40 before they perm.  *shrugs*  Do they get high levels quickly?  Of course they do.  Does that make them an epic character in the sense that they have impacted the world?  No.  Why?  Because they're not in the world.  They're in the game.  It's not whether you do just this or just that.  In order to be a character that impacts the people around you, you have to interact with the people.  In order to impact the world around you, you have to interact with the world [read: GM's and quests].  In order to gain respect of those that play in the world, you have to interact with the players, and treat them with the respect that you hope to gain.  Yes, there are epic players who do not have a single character over 20th lvl.  There are also people who have characters that are very high level, and might as well not even be a part of this community.

Once again- it's a game.  We love it, it's part of our daily (for most of us) lives.  Take what you want from it, give more back.  The more you give, the more you'll get.

[Honora]

Chiming in as I just caught this thread.
 
 Lots of great opinions here, and I have one to add. EPIC as defined by actions seems to be centered on quest actions and world impact. There is another impact that needs mentioning.
 
 There are people in this game who have done more in their own quiet way to promote the world of Layonara than us LOOK AT ME types and I do include myself in that, at least when I played actively.
 
 These people, and we all know who they are, raise families then play their children, or invite others to play relatives to expand the roleplay. They take little newbie half-orcs and take time to get to know them, run them around, and level them. They start guilds that carry on. Maybe they're not all over the forums or on every quest, but they have a huge impact on players returning to our world, and through their ig families they create a living feel.
 
 And yet, often these people are denied opportunities to even try for WL because they haven't done the "right" things to apply. What do we reward? Time spent on world-changing quests, or people who change the world one ig family and one new player at a time?
 
 My 2 cp. Back to my hole.

[Pibemanden]

What is epic to me..... I would say some combination of Influential, Important, lauded/famous and established.

Let me elaborate, if a character isn't influential in one way or another, how will the character in question make things happen? How will the world become aware that the character in question actually exists(Not as in know who the character is, but know there there is -someone- pulling the strings)? Influential doesn't really have to be able to "control" a lot of people, but it should be to be able to affect a lot of people.
Important, well if a character is expendable, then what defines their epicness? If it didn't matter if the character was around or not. . . Well then there isn't really much epic about the character. I am not saying here that if an epic character dies the world will end, but some things will become impossible, at least until someone else is able to fill the spot. In churches/organizations and such it is pretty easy as there are usually "heirs to the throne" lined up, but it would be more complex for "independent" characters.
Lauded/famous. . . Well I would say a character who is praised/feared here, and the actual response the character gets should be as the character intended it to be. So if a champion of Toran is feared by some normal villagers because they think that the champion in question will kill them, then the character is probably not all that epic in that situation.
Establised, well if the character hasn't been around for too long it would be hard, if not impossible to build a reputation as being epic in deed and person. So this one should come natural...

The power statements with level and skill. Well you could be an infinitely skilled person but if you never use those skills for anything that matters it hardly makes you epic in anyone's mind but your own. And in my opinion it is what everyone else thinks and not what your character think

World leader? That has nothing to do with epic in it's current shape and form, actually I would argue that the name is a misnomer as well, passed-a-WLDQ would sum it up better or some other word/phrase. The problem here is really the huge inequality in scope of the quests themselves, and the RP effects it has after the quest has been passed. In a way a WL is just your average character with a few wands which could in theory be given out to everyone who have player here for 12 months(except the xp wand unless it was somewhat scaled down to 1/6th of an hour in xp or so).
So my argument is that Epic levels doesn't make an epic character, but neither does a World Leader title. What makes your character epic is the scope of what they can do and partly what they have done in the past.

[minerva]

You were asking for characters level 20 or under.  When chosing parameters within a population for research one should never build in automatic bias.  Had they stayed they in all likelyhood would exceed your criteria.  Which is why the Raven Trading founders are not there - they are greater than 20.
 
 I personally doubt they all left because they felt their characters were underappreciated by their fellow players and the GM team.  Most moved on to other games or real life.

[Rowana]

Not a single one still played. Is that because they weren't made to feel epic (from their own perspective)? Or, is it that GMs used to recognise pre-20th lvl achievement but no longer do? Why are they all characters from the (distant) past? Dunno the answer there, just food for thought.

I'll venture out with this one, since it's quite miss informed in some respects.

A goodly number of people on that list faded away from the world because they had Real Life obligations that keep them away (For Example: some went out and started families which took priority). Some, like PnP/Bumblebee have issues with the way the world is despite his love for the place and self admittedly can't really stay in one place very long. I know one of those people on that list left because of the way certain members of the the community made them feel in several consecutive incidents. Some of those people are still around just not IG, working hard behind the scenes. One person on that list Permed. Of course it's rarely that simple and for several of those people it's a combination of things.

I don't think you can pick out any of those people and say "Gosh, did the team belittle you and treat you like dirt? Is that why you left?" (Which, incidentally Pseudo, is how your quoted post sounds.)

Another corrupter to "present and active characters" is that very few of them are actually less then level 20. I can think of a few characters who are present and active that I would call 'epic' regardless of level, but they don't meet the list qualifier.

My personal opinion is that, it doesn't matter what level you are. It's never mattered what level people are in any of my quests except for one experimental quest that Eor and I ran that was specifically for new players. Beyond that one quest, I prefer that mechanical levels be left at the doorstop on the way in to my quest. I think mechanical levels start out as a learning tool and then become a crutch.

~row

[Link092]

Senario that occurred several monthes ago:

Idoran brained a high lvl cultist, knocked over several well-trained killers hidden in a barrels (after failing to knock them over the first time via bashing a wagon wheel). The results? One other was taken down, and one escaped, and one casualty for the team. Any recognition? nah, not really, but gosh-durn, that felt epic.

just dropped in.

// was a GM event... But through the innovation of RP, there are plenty of things you can do that can go a long ways...

[Hellblazer]

Not a single one still played. Is that because they weren't made to feel epic (from their own perspective)? Or, is it that GMs used to recognise pre-20th lvl achievement but no longer do? Why are they all characters from the (distant) past? Dunno the answer there, just food for thought.

Chanda do play when he has the time. I have rpied a few times with him barely 3 months ago, or was it 6?!?.


Here my two trues,

Epics, non-epics, wold leader, non world leader. It has little bearing to me at the moment. Simply because I have plaid with all of the types here, and quite frankly some of the time, the best Rp's I have had was with those without titles. I do not wish to attack anyone personally here, cause I do understand the time constraint of RL. But for the almost 4 years I have been here, the only real consistently Active world leader I have seen is Jennara. And when I mean active, I mean that takes part into the wold plot and none world plot quest all the same. Q, had at his time tried to make an active role also up until his wldq status was revoked. But even before that, from the talks we had, he was feeling like there was something missing in what it was to be a Wldq. That after the deed was done, there wasn't much more to look forward to.

To me, and although be it that in the last year, I haven't been the most quest active player due to conflicting work schedule, it seems that there is a laxism. Once the title is achieve there is nothing left. Sure I have seen a few reach level 40. But what kind of impact do they have on the world today?

Epics (or best be known as World leader) are supposed to be just that, people that the general masses of the characters will look in awe in front of their past accomplishments and their continual role into the world. But for the better part of lack of reward maybe? not saying xp or items, but maybe more recognitions, uses on and off quests, possibilities to affect the world without necessarily a gm presence, maybe they are feeling like there is nothing left for them to reach, so slowly they fade. Maybe they still play, but don't have as much of an active presence as they used to. There can be many reasons.

Without being cynical though. It sometimes makes me laugh slightly when I hear that the lowest of chars could have an impact, if that was so, then the criterias for world leaders, and their quests, should be considerably lowered to reflect that statement. Honora pointed out a point that I think is very valid, and i think that should bring up maybe other kind of recognitions for those player who have in their ways contributed to this world.

[miltonyorkcastle]

To recap a little:

We all obviously have different ideas of what it takes to be "epic." Some say you need the levels, can't be epic without them; some say levels don't matter at all with regard to what makes a character epic.

New questions:
What sort of issues are created when a GM and a player have different ideas about what constitutes epic status? What solutions are there for handling the conflicting viewpoints?

[Shiokara]

To recap a little:

We all obviously have different ideas of what it takes to be "epic." Some say you need the levels, can't be epic without them; some say levels don't matter at all with regard to what makes a character epic.

New questions:
What sort of issues are created when a GM and a player have different ideas about what constitutes epic status? What solutions are there for handling the conflicting viewpoints?

Can you give us a case where this might be significant? The only time I think it might be is if one is applying for WL status, and then it only seems to apply if the player's concept of epic is solely level based.

Still, the solution for this is easy, I think. Communication. Honest, clear communication can often resolve such issues even if it is just the GM saying, "Look. You cannot do this. Here is why."

[Pseudonym]

I'll venture out with this one, since it's quite miss informed in some respects.

~row

Not sure how a question (as opposed to an attempted answer) can be misinformed but hey, whatever.

My questions were intended to be an attempt to promote thought/deliberation of whether there has been a subconscious shift towards an environment where epic-levels are now (versus 'previously') more necessary for world-changing deeds.

Maybe it is harder to name current (versus past) sub-epic-level world-influencing characters because epic-levels are now easier to achieve. That may be the answer. Likely so. However, I would venture, for some, there is a feeling that an opportunity for changing the world is not presented as readily pre-20th level versus post-20th level. The question is (was), was this always the case?

I can tell you, from my perspective (of being an active player of about 3.5 years), the opportunity for sub-epic-level-player-initiated change has certainly changed (lessened).

[Dezza]

I have to agree with Pseudo and I didn't read his question the way it appears to be have been read

It was clearly evident during the time of the last plot series characters of any level such as the ones listed by Minerva could accomplish things, small or large but it was included in the world and seen as development of both world and characters and it mean't a lot.

Since the new plot began some years ago the emphasis changed and its not related to the plot just that it began to happen around that time. Previously charcters up to level 20 could make a difference. Now it certainly seems that unless you have the 'levels' under your belt you find it hard to get considered for any sort of part in it.

So now we have players chasing levels, chasing the higher level characters because the perception is that 'they' are more important, they have better spells, they can't hardly fail skill checks, they can do pretty much whatever they want in different situations and that this world rewards 'high' level characters more than anyone else.

I can tell you honestly from personal experience that high levels characters aren't all they are cracked up to be. I regularly make new characters (to the CA'S horrors heh) for one simple reason, they are simply put, far more interesting and exciting than I am finding epic levels to be. Unless you are a grinder epic levels are useless without another interest ie RP interest or some in game goal, without that it's no good having one imo.

[lonnarin]

Epic or not, if I've never met the person, grouped with them, argued with them, had a duel with them or RPed with them in some sort of fashion, they're not all that Epic to me.  Maybe to a bunch of quest NPCs somewhere or their select crew that they group with, but ask me about them and I'll just blink and say "who now?"  It doesn't matter if somebody's 1st level or 40th level, how many forms in triplicate they filled out, how many quests they went on or how long they've played.  If you haven't even heard of the guy, he's not leading the world much, is he?

That's why Storold is the most epic character I know.  He's almost always there in-game, RPing with everybody that crosses his path.  If you need to seek him out for information on a quest, advice on what to do, or simply want to make fun of a paladin at whim, he's there.  The others on the lists... not so much.  More than half of them I only know from the list.

Just remember folks, no matter what list you're on, one cannot lead the world in absentia!

[Rowana]

I can tell you, from my perspective (of being an active player of about 3.5 years), the opportunity for sub-epic-level-player-initiated change has certainly changed (lessened).

If I were to actually get any requests from sub-level-twenty (why is 20 "epic" anyway?) I would certainly work to the best of my ability to pursue that. I have one exception that has happened to date and he knows who he is and why. Not really either of our faults, just a matter of timing (and a serious lack of it on my part)!

Those souls less then level twenty, get more active!

~row

[Dorganath]

I think there's a causality issue at work there, at least in part.  It's not necessarily that epic (by any definition) characters are required for plot advancement or the like.  Unless I've missed something (quite possible), Plot GMs aren't saying "Only Epic characters".  The "Low level beware" label on quests, Plot or not, is there because of the chance of high-level and deadly combat.  We frequently enough had that in the last campaign too. It just makes sense to give such a warning so people are prepared.

And again, we have a causality problem.  Is the Cult so powerful because they have to be to challenge high-level PCs? Or have PCs been trying to get leveled-up to take on the Cult because they're so powerful.  From my perspective, PCs have been chasing the 20+ levels since the moment we lifted the ECDQ requirement to progress past level 20.  

So what is the root here?  Are Plot quests epic because characters are? Or are characters epic because Plot quests are?  Or both? Or neither?

I think it's rather impossible to point to one reason the "drive to epic" that some players seem to have.  Is it wrong? Not really, though it's my personal opinion that it reflects a drive to become "great" before one achieves greatness, or to put it another way, it is reflective of a more active play-style over one that puts more emphasis on "growing" a character rather than building one.  Then again, my characters tend to be grown, so my perspective may not fit.

[Kenderfriend]

It's not necessarily that epic (by any definition) characters are required for plot advancement or the like. Unless I've missed something (quite possible), Plot GMs aren't saying "Only Epic characters". The "Low level beware" label on quests, Plot or not, is there because of the chance of high-level and deadly combat. We frequently enough had that in the last campaign too. It just makes sense to give such a warning so people are prepared.

Like Dorg says this makes complete sense to warn lower levels so they don't die all the time, but just want to step in here to say that it really doesn't matter about levels, in fact when playing it's better not to think about them at all.

In my opinion it matters more about thinking what would your character do rather than thinking about your character mechanically.
What I mean by this, for example, there's some wise wizard lvl 20, he might mechanically be super powerful, but he really doesn't want to get involved on one side or the other and so stays behind to study on it.
 Whereas I was trying to involve Keppli at like lvl 7 or something. True she did get killed pretty often, since she ran about witout a care in the world, but she's a bit foolish really and just wants to adventure and help to make a difference even though mechanically she isn't that powerful at all.

I'm not saying high levels can't get involved, nor am I saying that that lower levels should, it all depends on what your character would do at the time.
I just hope people are thinking this way already, and perhaps say... give the lvl 9 paladin a chance to be more of a leader in the party instead of looking to the higher level rogue or something. The rogue may be a great fighter but the paladin might have more of a status and leading spirit sort of thing
Just an example but I hope this helps the debate

[Pen N Popper]

Lurker alert!... Guilty!

Searching for Bumblebee (entirely for self congratulatory good vibes, mind you) I came across this thread.

Of course I am and always have been strongly opinionated when it comes to the topic of levels, so take that into consideration for the following opinions...

Would it have really harmed anyone to set up a system to reward/encourage different playing styles? Really? So a community stalwart progresses through sheer OOC contributions, is that bad? I didn't slay 1000 cave giants on the way to mining a bazillion nuggets of silver... yeah, I see your point. Not!

That I am here writing this utterly useless and pointless post must mean something... but what? That I care about this virtual community? Yes! That I long for feeling virtually connected through a fantasy virtual world? Yes! That I don't really have the time or desire to bash giants to climb the ranks? Yes, yes!

For the love of the pantheon, please come up with a system that just makes sense.

With utmost respect,
PnP / Bumblebee

P.S. Where is the MMO?
P.S.S. Dorg, I owe you a beer.