Death bug report

[Kenderfriend]

Location: Silkwood Spider caves
Time: Quarter to three-ish GMT time.
Witness: Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn/Xaltotun


In the spider caves while in spider form Keppli died but Elean managed to save her with potions and heal kits. I could clearly see the health bar going back up to full hitpoints but Keppli was still lying on the ground with the usual death options so I had to respawn.
Luckily I had no DT but I think this might be a bug. Furthermore the player Xaltotun said the same thing happened to his character 'Ygraine Ursus', only they did lose a DT so just wondering whats going on here.

Thanks again team,
~R.

[Carillon]

Do you have any logs of this event? Logs are very helpful to us when diagnosing and exterminating bugs and such.

Thanks!

[Kenderfriend]

Got the log here from just as she gets killed, hope this helps. If you need anything else just ask and I'll try my best to reply with what you need



[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Black Widow Spider damages Keppli Quickhands: 12 (12 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Black Widow Spider killed Keppli Quickhands
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Armor/Shield Applies: Skill Armor Check Penalty: 0 Arcane Spell Failure: 10%
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Soul Save vs. Soul Mother : *success* : (90 vs. DC: 17)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:54] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *miss* : (3 + 3 = 6)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:55] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (4 + 26 = 30)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:55] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *critical hit* : (18 + 21 = 39 : Threat Roll: 15 + 21 = 36)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:55] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 15 (10 Physical 5 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:56] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 23 (15 Physical 8 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:57] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (6 + 16 = 22)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:57] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (17 + 11 = 28 : Threat Roll: 7 + 11 = 18 )
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:57] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 8 (5 Physical 3 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:58] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 12 (10 Physical 2 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:58] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *hit* : (20 + 13 = 33 : Threat Roll: 14 + 13 = 27)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:59] Black Widow Spider damages Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn: 2 (2 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:00] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *miss* : (19 + 10 = 29)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:02] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn uses Target Cure Serious Wounds
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:02] Keppli Quickhands : Healed 67 hit points.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:02] Keppli Quickhands: [Party] Uggggh...
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:03] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *miss* : (7 + 13 = 20)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:05] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *miss* : (12 + 8 = 20)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:06] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn: [Tell] jeez
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:08] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (6 + 26 = 32)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:08] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *critical hit* : (18 + 21 = 39 : Threat Roll: 11 + 21 = 32)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:08] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 7 (5 Physical 2 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:09] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 25 (14 Physical 11 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:09] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *miss* : (3 + 13 = 16)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:11] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (10 + 16 = 26)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:11] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (11 + 11 = 22)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:11] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 11 (5 Physical 6 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:11] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 10 (5 Physical 5 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:12] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *miss* : (18 + 8 = 26)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:13] Off Hand : Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (14 + 27 = 41)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:14] Off Hand : Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (5 + 22 = 27)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:14] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 14 (9 Physical 5 Cold)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:14] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 8 (7 Physical 1 Cold)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:15] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *critical hit* : (16 + 26 = 42 : Threat Roll: 9 + 26 = 35)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:15] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (10 + 21 = 31)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:15] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 20 (15 Physical 5 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:15] Experience Points Gained:  288
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:15] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn killed Black Widow Spider
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:22] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn: [Party] oh no
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:26] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn: [Party] twice noo
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:30] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn uses Light Healer's Kit
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:38] Keppli Quickhands : Healed 28 hit points.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:45] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn uses Moderate Healer's Kit
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:52] Keppli Quickhands : Healed 61 hit points.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:58] Galathea Arnaduillae: [Tell] did you just make it or die?
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:00] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn uses Target Cure Light Wounds
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:00] Keppli Quickhands : Healed 9 hit points.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:03] Keppli Quickhands : Healed 0 hit points.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:03] A grave has been erected where you were slain.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:03] Return and pray to reflect upon your death and recover.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:03] You are now in the Void of being, you will return to your bind point soon.  // GM NOTE: If you are stuck in here for longer then a minute, you can use your Remembering Orb to be sent to your bindstone.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:06] [Server] You are now in a Full PVP Area.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:08] Acquired Item: Empty Creature Skin
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:10] You are encumbered and cannot run.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:10] Keppli Quickhands : Healed 0 hit points.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:11] You are encumbered and cannot run.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:15] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn: [Tell] what...
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:23] You are being sent to your bind point on this server.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:44:35] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn: [Tell] what the heck??

[Dorganath]

First, thank you for the log!

Second, I went through this, and something jumped out at me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the timing of things or the nature of the report, but let me illustrate and you can respond with any corrections to the situation.

[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Black Widow Spider damages Keppli Quickhands: 12 (12 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Black Widow Spider killed Keppli Quickhands
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Armor/Shield Applies: Skill Armor Check Penalty: 0 Arcane Spell Failure: 10%
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Soul Save vs. Soul Mother : *success* : (90 vs. DC: 17)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:54] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *miss* : (3 + 3 = 6)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:55] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (4 + 26 = 30)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:55] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *critical hit* : (18 + 21 = 39 : Threat Roll: 15 + 21 = 36)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:55] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 15 (10 Physical 5 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:56] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 23 (15 Physical 8 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:57] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (6 + 16 = 22)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:57] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn attacks Black Widow Spider : *hit* : (17 + 11 = 28 : Threat Roll: 7 + 11 = 18 )
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:57] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 8 (5 Physical 3 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:58] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn damages Black Widow Spider: 12 (10 Physical 2 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:58] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *hit* : (20 + 13 = 33 : Threat Roll: 14 + 13 = 27)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:59] Black Widow Spider damages Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn: 2 (2 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:00] Black Widow Spider attacks Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn : *miss* : (19 + 10 = 29)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:02] Eleandilethessa Quil'lyn uses Target Cure Serious Wounds
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:02] Keppli Quickhands : Healed 67 hit points.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:43:02] Keppli Quickhands: [Party] Uggggh...

So what I see here is that there was a good 9 seconds between when Kleppi died and when Eleandilethessa used the Cure Serious Wounds potion.  As such, since Kleppi was already dead, the Cure potion would not have any effect.

If there is something I am not seeing in all this, please advise what that may be.  Otherwise, I'm having a hard time seeing where the bug you are reporting exists.

[Serissa]

The health bar shouldn't have gone up, should it?

[Dorganath]

The health bar shouldn't have gone up, should it?

No, but that doesn't mean it can't, if the server and the client are out of sync a bit, due to localized lag or something.  Just like people shouldn't jump around the screen when they move, but sometimes because of server, network or local computer issues, they do.

[Xiaobeibi]

I was in the same party as her. She went dead on the portrait and had the skull symbol next to her, but her health bar went up when healed as if she was still alive. Also on my screen (not present in the same area though) she never went below zero HP.

[Rowana]

As unfortunate as it is, that kind of graphical representation can occur, as Dorg said, when there is a hiccup in connection or other lag type delay somewhere between the server and the players. So far it sounds like neither the player nor the server is at fault here, just at some random point in between the players and the server.

Two things to keep in mind. Firstly, the server doesn't trigger a soul mother roll unless the server registers the character has dipped below -10 hit points. There's no exceptions to this and there for pretty hard for something to 'go wrong.'

Second, regardless of internet connection stability, the server is the only part of the whole chain between player PC and the server itself that makes the call on what 'state' the game is in. That means if there is a hiccup between player and server, the server is right and while the player isn't at fault, it's beyond the control of either admin or player. These moments of being out of sync probably happen more then we notice, truly, because they are generally brief and usually 'catch up' fairly quickly. This particular instance just seemed to be rather ill timed.

While reliability in connectivity (in general, internet wide) has improved over the years, it is clearly not perfect. Sometimes these things do just happen. It's unfortunate but one of the reasons that Graceful Pleas were designed, so that there was some measure of balance we could offer the player for things beyond our control.

This statement of things is based on proofs and testimonies provided thus far. If there is something else that has not been offered to support the possibility of a bug, please get it to us because we certainly don't want there to be a 'bug' of this nature plaguing any player.

~row

I was in the same party as her. She went dead on the portrait and had the skull symbol next to her, but her health bar went up when healed as if she was still alive. Also on my screen (not present in the same area though) she never went below zero HP.

[Xaltotun]

I have checked my log too, and as Dorg found out, I have the same entry on my log, namely [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Black Widow Spider killed Keppli Quickhands

Furthermore, the reasons for the

9 seconds between when Kleppi died and when Eleandilethessa used the Cure Serious Wounds potion

is because on my screen, Keppli didn't show that volume of damage and had in fact withdrawn from combat with around approximately 1/3 health intact. When I then saw her hit points fall to near death, I turned to cast the potion, then turned back to attack the spider again.

Keppli and I both thought this was a bug, because on both of our screens Keppli never fell to -ve hit points and at no time did she fall, or die, on either of our screens. We never saw the line saying the spider had killed her (too much action at the time.)

If this is down to lag, as it would appear to be, then there is no bug. However, if the shapechange is responsible for this lack of display for some reason (i.e. Keppli fell to the ground, but showed a +ve hit point status as she did), then it is possible there is a bug.

And thanks for the explanation on connectivity Row, but I don't think it explains why Keppli's body never fell to -ve hit points, and continued to be able to be cured, on 3 different screens. For Keppli's body to display a healing process, the server must have been updating our screens with this, so lag has to be discounted. So again, is it possible this is a bug caused by the shapechange spell.

I know that when I am shapechanged, I now pull out of combat when I am down to around 25-33% of my total hit points, to make sure I am safe enough to change back to heal myself.

[Dorganath]

The problem here is that it's getting increasingly difficult to identify what happened and when.  In addition to the description in the initial post in this thread, are you now adding that Kleppi not only withdrew from combat but was also Wildshaped and had switched back to humanoid form in order to heal?  Are you also stating that Kleppi fell to the ground, unable to act in an incapacitated state after having done so?  It seems that there is an attempt to draw a parallel between this event and the one you reported here, but none of that, including the possible involvement of Wildshape, was mentioned in the initial report.  Certainly, everyone can see that this does not help us gain the necessary clarity that we need to troubleshoot and make any determination as to whether this is a bug or just a flukey behavior of networked game play.

I am just trying to sort through what happened. It seems to me, given the bit of log that was provided, that there was a fairly high amount of combat happening. I myself have personally seen damage from combat continue to roll in even after the last creature has died.  Why? Because NWN tries to complete every action it starts.  Further, gaming in general is asynchronous, meaning events come in and out as they happen rather than on some sort of "heartbeat" or other regular interval.  Lastly, I'm not even going to begin to state I know exactly how NWN's event management and networking works, though again, my assumption is that all the messages the server sends out (whether displayed or to communicate some status or action) go into a queue and get sent out one at a time, and that events (combat damage, healing efforts, movement, etc.) pass through a similar sort of queue, perhaps with some prioritization to it.  Again, these are just guesses.

What does this mean?  It means that in situations where a lot is going on, it is possible, even likely, that what is seen on-screen remains out-of-sync with what the server believes has happened.  Ultimately, it is the server which decides when a character moves, when a character takes damage and when a character dies. I know we all have either personally seen or have read accounts of people who say:

"I was in combat and surrounded and at full health, and then all of a sudden everything stopped, and I couldn't move or attack, but neither did anything else, and then suddenly I'm at near death...." (or dead even)

...and so on. Sure, those sorts of things happen, and are usually lag-related.  What we see on-screen is imperfect, unfortunately, in situations where high lag (network/server/client) and/or large amounts of activity exist, which is ironically when we most need it to be accurate!

Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that the more variables we have, the more difficult it gets to really narrow this sort of thing down.  I am not discounting the possibility of a genuine bug, but neither am I discounting the possibility of the server and clients being out-of-sync with one another.

I keep coming back to this:

[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Black Widow Spider damages Keppli Quickhands: 12 (12 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Black Widow Spider killed Keppli Quickhands
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Armor/Shield Applies: Skill Armor Check Penalty: 0 Arcane Spell Failure: 10%
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Jan 15 14:42:53] Soul Save vs. Soul Mother : *success* : (90 vs. DC: 17)

Death as a basic system has not changed for longer than I can recall, except for what happens after death, specifically the application of penalties for a specific period of time.  So in this, at least, I hope we can all agree that Kleppi died and due to falling below -10 HP according to the server's internal records Kleppi could not be healed.  Soul Mother checks do not happen for any other reason besides a full death when a character falls below -10 HPs.

I think also we need to disregard the visual indication of healing Kleppi as justification that this death is somehow in error.  Since the offered bit of log starts at the last strike before death, what is not clear to me is whether or not there were any attempts to heal Kleppi before the death happened.  Given what I have described about client/server communication, here's a possible scenario for what people saw:

Due to heavy combat traffic and possibly some lag (network/server/client), actual combat was actually slightly ahead of perceived combat, meaning the server's version was a bit newer than what you all had.  In that scenario, if client attempts to heal Kleppi were made before Kleppi died but the server didn't fully process them until after Kleppi died, I could see that showing "healed" messages and an increase in the health bar until everything settled again.

Again, this is only one possible scenario, but unfortunately it illustrates why situations like this are so very difficult to identify, and why it is critical that we get as much information as possible. Worse even, the very nature of the causes of things like this can make it very difficult to troubleshoot and often very difficult to then confirm that any attempted fix has worked.

*takes a breath*

So, after all of that, I request the most complete account of what occurred in the several moments just before Kleppi's death.

@Kenderfriend, I need to know specifically what actions you took, starting from before you (apparently?) removed Kleppi from combat until the point of death.

@everyone else, I need your actions as well, including attempts at healing.

From everyone, including more of the logs to show events before (or even better, just post the entire sequence of combat for that particular battle), would be very beneficial. The log above, while helpful, shows only that Kleppi died and that messages of healing came in after the fact, but there is no information on what lead up to the death, and this is what is critical in determining if a bug exists in our code or if this is just an unfortunate quirk of network game play.

Thank you all for the information you have provided so far.

[Xaltotun]

I have attached the trimmed down version of the log report (we have been fighting for ages and the spides are numerous) but I hope this helps.
 
 Dorg, I am not trying to draw any parallel, merely reporting on a situation that I was involved in. So to clarify, let me itemise from memory:
 

• Keppli was shapechanged as spider
• Keppli and Ele were fighting
• Keppli got nearly killed by a spider
• Keppli withdrew
• Ele saw the near death levels of health and cast a serious wounds
• Ele killed the remaining spider
• Ele then cast a serious of heals on Keppli who was by this time lying on the floor as a halfling. I have no way of knowing whether she cancelled the shapechange or not.

This version is the same as I originally stated (apart from the halfling appearance as I had forgotten that) and matches my log report so you will see that I am not trying to make the scenario fit any previous situations, but merely report a strange circumstance that we both happen to think is a bug.
 
 I know the inns and outs of bugs and NWN has become buggier over the last few SR updates than ever. This is not a challenge against NWN, Layonara, or anything else. It is not a whine, it is not a plea for special anything, it is only a report of a strange and unusual set of circumstances that may or may not be a bug, and which we thought worth reporting.
 
 [ATTACH]15682[/ATTACH]

[Kenderfriend]

This is not a challenge against NWN, Layonara, or anything else. It is not a whine, it is not a plea for special anything, it is only a report of a strange and unusual set of circumstances that may or may not be a bug, and which we thought worth reporting.

Ta Xaltotun I meant to say that first time. We were just reporting this because we were worried it might happen to someone else.

And also, who is this Kleppi Dorg is on about..?

Just kidding, but really, I think her name has some aura of mis-spelling around it!

http://forums.layonara.com/rumour-has/213032-meeting-spellgard.html  (heres another one hehe.)