Evil/Lawful Rofireinite vs Good/Lawful Rofireinite

[Script Wrecked]

Its difficult to have a hard and fast answer on this question I think.  

Seems there are three sources of law: 1) Divine; 2) Government; 3) Personal Code.

For a Rofie it seems that law from Government should trump/be stronger than law from a personal code.  

Personal is above Government because, as an agent of Rofirein, your personal law would (should) be closer to the Divine Law than the Government Law.

Divine Law, especially for a paladin or cleric, do not conflict with Government as Lore states that Rofireinites shall:

Hold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing loved ones or friends to justice.

The Divine Law.

A Lawful/Good Rofi would be in quite a pickle if he had to choose between obeying a law he deemed bad/evil.

The Rofireinite follows the Divine Law. Laws that differ from that are not the Divine Law, therefore, no conundrum.

If he chose to break the law he would be disobeying his divine calling to "Hold the law above all else".  

The Divine Law.

[Gulnyr]

"The Rofireinites are almost always portrayed as a bunch of Lawful Stupid guys who follow whatever rules are in front of them, which is a shame."
I think that might be just a slight over exaggeration.

If it is, it is very slight.  Look...

In Vehl the idea was to be the same but its proven to be more difficult than anyone could imagine. Lord Kezed has resisted all attempts by the Rofireinite heirarchy to merge their ideas onto his governing of the city despite years and years of ongoing attempts. While they still do a lot of good there it really is a point of light in an otherwise disparate chaotic darkness. And for those people who can be shown that point of light the Rofireinites realise it they close up shop and move somewhere else would be to betray those who can be saved or who can try and better themselves. Vehl is a tough nut to crack and may never crack, but someone has to try right?

Look at this situation and consider how it is handled, not just by players but by DMs.  Here the Rofireinites are, trying so hard to bring Vehl closer - at all - to Divine Law, to bring some stability and order and real justice to the place, but have failed to make any change for at least a couple of centuries.  Centuries.  Yet, instead of trying a different approach, withdrawing approval, they continue to act along with and support these corrupt laws.  What incentive does anyone there have to change and compromise with the Rofireinites?  The Rofies are Lawful Stupid and keep participating and enforcing the corrupt laws!  They follow the laws of Vehl and Co'rys because those are the laws in front of them. This is like having the Pyrtechonites set up a temple in Western Gate, where they try to convince people to burn everything to the ground while simultaneously sending priests out to help build new houses and shops.  "What you're doing is utterly unholy, just an atrocious sacrilege from our perspective that we think you should change, but let us help you out.  Looks like you could use a hand."  What?

They should keep trying in Vehl, of course, and never give up.  They should try something new, though, not keep doing the same thing that hasn't worked for the last ten or more generations.  

If a LG High Justicier ever came to run the temple here things might get a bit different. They would be more forceful in their demands for change and might even condone acts that shift the balance of power to someone more suited to the goals of the church. However to my knowledge LE members of the Rofi faith are not as common as other types which makes this scenario fairly unlikely in the future.

I'm not following this part, by the way.  You started with LG and ended with LE, and I'm not sure which you mean.

[willhoff]

I think I'm missing what divine Rofirein law is.  I read on Lore that there is a "Charter of Laws"

I cant find anything on what the divine law actually states.  Is it substantive, telling its followers how followers are to live their lives (thou shall not kill), is it procedural telling its followers the way justice should be administered (accused gets trial by jury and is innocent until proven guilty).

I was under the impression that Divine Rofireinite law is basically a set of tenants like:

Dedicate your life to justice, honor, and the pursuit of law and order.

I can see if Rofireinites have a detailed set of laws to follow that when compared to a governments laws they would only have to follow the laws of that government that didnt conflict with their divine law.

If the divine law is more basic and ambiguous like uphold justice, honor and pursuit of law and order then the Rofie should follow the local law to the tee unless it conflicts with the principles of justice, honor and law and order.

Rael law puts people in prison for outwardly displaying or praying to any deity besides sulterio, that includes Rofirein.  So a Rofie judge heading to court in Prantz could be put in prison for displaying his faiths colors/insignia.  But, Rofirein justices at the citadel of Rofirein administer and exact trials and punishments based on Rael's law.  Puting a Rofireinite in prison for openly praying to Rofirein or displaying Rofirein's insignia seems to be in direct conflict to the divine law of Rofirein (what ever that is) yet Rofireinites follow and even administer punishments under this conflicting law.

How can one be following the divine law of a god by puting people in prison for worshiping the very god that gives you that divine law?

From Gulnyr:

This is what I was saying before about an Evil Rofireinite basically just being a LN guy having a bad day. You can't honor Rofirein's dogma and do the usual Evil stuff. It's a very, very light-weight Evil.

In Layonara you have to play your alignment correctly.  If you are evil you have to do the usual evil stuff.  I concurr with you that it is impossible to play a L/E Rofireinite unless you bend the rules and play instead a LN alignment.  Playing a certain deity does not give you justification for playing outside your alignment which is why I said its a contradiction.  Once you water down evil and play it very light you are no longer playing evil but something else.

[Gulnyr]

The Divine Law is something substantial, but it's not actually something we can go look stuff up in.  At least, that's the way I understand it.

The courts in Prantz are actually Rael's courts, with Rofireinite observers.  So there is no Rofireinite judge to sentence anyone in Prantz.  That is my understanding and experience (Jennara testified there once, not happily).

In Layonara you have to play your alignment correctly. If you are evil you have to do the usual evil stuff. I concurr with you that it is impossible to play a L/E Rofireinite unless you bend the rules and play instead a LN alignment. Playing a certain deity does not give you justification for playing outside your alignment which is why I said its a contradiction. Once you water down evil and play it very light you are no longer playing evil but something else.

"Amen" seems a proper response.

[Dezza]

The charter of laws is based on the Divine Law.

The Charter of Laws was agreed to by decree by most of the good and nuetral faiths under the Diamonior rule in Dreger centuries ago, along with most of the nations (of the time) that supported 'lawful' and or 'good' organised society. Its a shame this information is not yet widely available as it would help to clarify a lot of things for people about this thread. But we do what we can with what we have.

In terms of Vehl, Rofireinites have made some leeway with the people on the streets. Its not as 'bad' as it once was nor as bad as it 'could be'. So maybe, if nothing else, the Rofireinite presence in Fort Vehl has prevented it from becoming an openly held Corathite stronghold. Then isn't that a big victory in the scheme of things?

The reference to a continual non moving state of play in regards to Fort Vehl is not really true, things have happened and things do change. Yes some of those things in vehl have not been handled all that well and this can contribute sometimes to these sorts of perceptions and that is a shame.

In reference to my comment about a new High Justicier in Fort Vehl I did mean LE all the way.

Also, no Rofireinite player to my knowledge in recent times apart from one has tried to do anything about the status quo in Vehl.

[willhoff]

The courts in Prantz are actually Rael's courts, with Rofireinite observers. So there is no Rofireinite judge to sentence anyone in Prantz.

I got the information about Rofirein justices administering the Rael law from this Lore passage:

The citadel of Rofirein governs trials, sentencing, and handles the paperwork for both ingoing prisoners and the rare outgoing reformed lawbreaker.

[davidhoff]

Ahhh, I see, I didn't realize there was this actual "Divine Law" or "Charter of Laws" that Rofies follow as the ultimate law.  That helps me understand much.  It also helps me that the "Divine Law" is founded on

'lawful' and or 'good'

principles.  I had this incorrect view that Rofies had to push back their moral compass, and only follow the law of the land.

Ok, so now what?  Rofies are charged with trying to establish order and stability for the common man, and to promote and protect the rule of law in an area, as long as that rule of law is in line with the "Divine Law".  This is a difficult and noble task.

I still see a potential problem if you let Rofies say we only follow "good" laws or laws that are in line with the "Divine Law".  It says to everyone, the common man and Rofies alike, if you don't like a law and you think its in conflict with "Divine Law" you don't have to follow it.  That to me, seems like a rescipe for riots and chaos (picturing farmers, pitchforks, burning carts, chickens swung by the neck like weapons).  How is the average joe supposed to know which laws to follow, and how to nit-pick these local laws?  The line is not clear and leaves open alot of ambiguity for the common man.  When you say that "Divine Law" is over the "Law of the Land" you undercut the Law of the Land and those goverment's ability to keep the peace.  Thoughts?

[Shiokara]

Couple things here that I might offer having tried to play an LE Rofie.

First, the closest we can get to knowing the Divine laws are the "Divine principles" and "Classification of Crimes" section of [LORE]Law of Layonara[/LORE]. As I understand it, this is the framework that was laid out at the [LORE]Congregation of the Principium[/LORE].

I can also comment on the subject of crooked Rofireinites. Rofireinites, particularly clerics, get their abilities/powers from their deity. If one breaks the Divine law, then Rofirein no longer smiles favorably on that person, meaning you lose your powers. It would not take long for other Rofireinites/etc. to realize that you are no longer favored by their deity.

Taking a bribe could fall under "aiding wanted criminals" or "fraud". Pretending to have authority that is not properly granted to you is both "fraud" and "impersonating government officials or Rofireinites". Most crimes/shady deals can fit into the rough sketch of laws provided in that LORE link.

The best way, perhaps the only way, to roll an LE Rofie who is a member of the church is to play him as a ruthless upholder of the laws and punishments.

[geloooo]

I am now tempted to make a draconian LE servant of Rofirein. Dolores Umbridge, anyone?

[Script Wrecked]

I still see a potential problem if you let Rofies say we only follow "good" laws or laws that are in line with the "Divine Law".  It says to everyone, the common man and Rofies alike, if you don't like a law...

"Liking" a law is not relevant.

... and you think its in conflict with "Divine Law" you don't have to follow it.

As a Rofirenite, you follow the Divine Law.

How is the average joe supposed to know which laws to follow, and how to nit-pick these local laws?  

Firstly, there is no advocacy to "nit pick" local laws.

Average Joe can always ask his Rofirenite clergy.

The line is not clear and leaves open alot of ambiguity for the common man.

The line couldn't be clearer; if you are a Rofireinite, follow the Divine Law.

When you say that "Divine Law" is over the "Law of the Land" you undercut the Law of the Land and those goverment's ability to keep the peace.  

There would only be undercutting of bad laws. Any loss of peace due to bad laws has nothing to do with the Divine Law.

[Dezza]

Remember, some laws are better than no laws. You need a system to begin with in order to proceed forward. So Often Rofirneites will take what is existing and work with it to bring it into line with the Divine Law.

You also need to remember in terms of corruption, the Order of the Principium was formed to prevent this very thing from happening and it is a very large organisation and very active within the faith ensuring any and all followers of the Dragon meet the highest standards that Rofirein demands. Consider them the equivalent of the 'Inquisition' if you like and no one within the Rofireinite Faith likes a visit from a Warden let alone a High Warden of the Principium. Few if any can be spared the Justice a High Warden can impose on a follower of 'any' rank if it is deemed they are corrupt or have in some way bismirched the principles of Rofirein they are supposed to uphold.

[Xaltotun]

Reading all of this, I thought it might be great fun to create a new LE Rofireinite cleric and play him away, so I read a little more into Roffies than I had previously and one thing has me really puzzled now. All this talk of LE Roffies and yet this is the paragraph from the Rofireinite link:

You are a paragon of virtue and honor. Dedicate your life to justice, honor, and the pursuit of law and order. Hold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing loved ones or friends to justice. Without the order of law, chaos would reign and the world would descend into dark times where Pyrtechon would thrive. Extend honor to all--even your foes. Aid others whenever and wherever possible as long as it is in accordance with the law and does not make way for acts of evil. The common people are the strongest force in bringing order and prosperity to all. We must protect them.

Now none of this says a "good" alignment, but it sure doesn't hint to my ears of any touch of evil here at all. If so, how can one of the allowed alignments of a Roffie cleric be LE?

[drakogear]

So, by all that I understand so fare, the biggest differences between a good Rofie and an evil Rofie is the laws of the land that they enforce

Example:

A good Rofie follows and enforces the divine law as to any and all good laws in the current land and apposes evil laws.

An evil Rofie follows and enforces the divine law but would likely be swayed to look the other way when a law of the land is broken.

As in my last post about LE Rofies being like cooked cops and accepting bribes. Though if the crime being committed is in conflict with the divine law then regardless of the bribe the man will still be hauled to jail.

[Xaltotun]

Hmm, this may be going back over broken ground again, but both both LG and LE  would by alignment have to follow the law; you cannot just follow "good" laws and ignore the "evil" laws.

My question was not so much about this though as to how, when the Lore for Rofireinites was as posted

You are a paragon of virtue and honor

can you create an LE character?

[Alatriel]

Also, you have to remember that not all laws are in accordance with the Divine Laws of Rofirein.  I don't think a Rofireinite would have any problems not following and completely going against the laws of dark elves.  Or if a country had decided to create a law that all followers of Rofirein were to be hanged, that doesn't mean the followers of Rofirein that resided in that country would line up to get their punishment handed to them.  Just because someone makes up a law doesn't mean that a Rofireinite is going to support it.  Yes, it's a law, but if that law is unjust and does make sense, or if it goes against the Divine Law or causes them in any way to break their oaths or code, they're going to go by their Divine Code first, which may mean it is in discord with the so-called law that was created.  Just because Rofirein is the god of Law doesn't mean that his followers are brainless people who will believe anything that is written down in legal jargon and signed and told that it's a law of the land.  If anything, these are the people that would be able to find the loopholes in bad laws and be able to work the system to get them fixed.  These are the lawyers of the lands.  Lawyers are generally pretty thorough.  

I think people are getting confused with the alignment term "Lawful" with "follows the laws".  Lawful means that you follow a code, whether that is a personal code or one of the lands or religion, etc. that you follow.  If something conflicts with that code or "set of laws" that you personally follow, even if it is another set of laws, that doesn't mean that you have to follow the conflicting set of laws or code.

[Alatriel]

Hmm, this may be going back over broken ground again, but both both LG and LE  would by alignment have to follow the law; you cannot just follow "good" laws and ignore the "evil" laws.

My question was not so much about this though as to how, when the Lore for Rofireinites was as posted  can you create an LE character?

Yes.  Because, as Script mentioned below, the alignment is ooc.  We've determined the character to be evil because their actions are evil, but their ic justification to them probably means that they believe they are a paragon of virtue and honor.  

An example:

A man grows up in the city of Fort Vehl.  He sees the squalor that corrupts the city every day of his young life, but he sees that the temple of Rofirein sits in the center and constantly tries to make things better.  He knows they need help.  So when he is old enough he goes to join the temple.  He has a hatred and anger of all the corruption that the city holds, so he learns about the laws of Rofirein and how to apply them.  In time, the man leaves the church, still strong in his faith, and goes to join the town guard.  He remembers from his childhood where the gangs are, what they are capable of, and how they work. He knows that they are sneaky so their work was often not even seen.  He starts to set up ambushes to catch people in the act.  It works for some, but others get away.  Those that are tried for their crimes, he advises that the harshest punishment is granted so that the city is rid of these corrupt individuals.

He never lies.  He treats everyone with respect- that deserves his respect.  The men that he hunts he considers to be monsters.  For many others, they would agree with him.

To this man, he is a paragon of virtue and honor.  He's hunting the enemy of the city's order.  But he'll go to any lengths to accomplish his goal, and even though he may catch someone that is merely associated with the gangs that he hunts, and that the person may not have performed the action personally, he will see that they all get the harshest penalty for their crime- death.  It's the method of cutting out the entire problem, and anything else that the problem may possibly have touched that makes him evil.  It's his methods.  He isn't doing anything illegal.

Do not use ic justification and reasoning to negate what the ooc alignment system says.  There are many evil people that believe that they are a paragon of goodness, and that everyone else is evil because they disagree with them.

[Gulnyr]

In terms of Vehl, Rofireinites have made some leeway with the people on the streets. Its not as 'bad' as it once was nor as bad as it 'could be'. So maybe, if nothing else, the Rofireinite presence in Fort Vehl has prevented it from becoming an openly held Corathite stronghold. Then isn't that a big victory in the scheme of things?

Not if you also keep supporting the government against the good of the common people.  It is not necessary to support a government to support the people under that government.  And supporting that government and those laws means spitting in the face of Rofirein's law, being Lawful Stupid and following because those are the laws before them.

Also, no Rofireinite player to my knowledge in recent times apart from one has tried to do anything about the status quo in Vehl.

Please forgive me, but this is where I start to get a little angry.  I'm all for players and PCs being able to affect the world.  That's really cool.  But to sit on your hands and pretend that these huge, powerful organizations - whether they be churches or kingdoms or whatever - just do nothing at all unless a PC initiates it is stupid.  I understand there are only so many people with so much time to work on background stuff, but there has to be some consideration that these organizations can and do do things on their own, and at a speed at least comparable to a single PC.  The world makes no sense otherwise.  Things have to change from time to time without player input.  And not just, "Oh, hey, I'm running an event here.  Can I switch this up," but also, "Oh, hey, let's retire this NPC and replace him with this one, and make this change over here because this government is doing that.  And maybe in two or three months, we can have this change as that government responds, and also make these two changes as that church and that criminal organization take action," without running any particular event at all.  The world should be alive without us.

I got the information about Rofirein justices administering the Rael law from this Lore passage:
The citadel of Rofirein governs trials, sentencing, and handles the paperwork for both ingoing prisoners and the rare outgoing reformed lawbreaker.

Yes, but it's not a church anymore.  The center of the faith moved from Prantz to Western Gate.  What was once the Citadel became just a fancypants court house, basically.  So the building, the Citadel of Rofirein, does do all that stuff, but it's all full of Rael's judges and lawyers with a handful of Rofireinite observers and paper-shufflers.

To this man, he is a paragon of virtue and honor.  He's hunting the enemy of the city's order.  But he'll go to any lengths to accomplish his goal, and even though he may catch someone that is merely associated with the gangs that he hunts, and that the person may not have performed the action personally, he will see that they all get the harshest penalty for their crime- death.  It's the method of cutting out the entire problem, and anything else that the problem may possibly have touched that makes him evil.  It's his methods.  He isn't doing anything illegal.

He won't go to any lengths because he won't break the law.  He won't lie on a report or in court because that would be to dishonor himself before Rofirein.  He won't commit murder. He knows he's not the executioner.  He won't break into anyone's property; that would be illegal.  He can't even be sure they get the punishment he wants because he's not the judge.  Otherwise, he pursues his case, sets stakeouts, makes arrests... just like all the other Rofies.  So in the end, the only thing that keeps him from being Lawful Neutral is that he wants all criminals dead, right?  There are days when Jennara wishes all criminals were dead.  Think we should change her alignment?  Don't you (you plural, everyone) think that's pretty weak, a really big stretch to put that guy in the Evil category?  If your only Evil trait is wanting criminals dead and the only Evil action is pressing the judge for a death sentence, with all other traits and actions being Neutral or Good, are you really Evil?

[Shiokara]

Hold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing loved ones or friends to justice. Without the order of law, chaos would reign and the world would descend into dark times where Pyrtechon would thrive.

@Xaltotun - Here's the section that hints towards LE alignment. Holding the law above all else, without consideration of the circumstances surrounding the crime, can be evil. There is a lot that can be done with the statement "Without the order of law, chaos would reign".

He won't go to any lengths because he won't break the law. He won't lie on a report or in court because that would be to dishonor himself before Rofirein. He won't commit murder. He knows he's not the executioner. He won't break into anyone's property; that would be illegal. He can't even be sure they get the punishment he wants because he's not the judge. Otherwise, he pursues his case, sets stakeouts, makes arrests... just like all the other Rofies.

@Gulnyr - This is all true, but now this man is a paragon of the church, he may train and rise to the ranks of judge. And once he is in that position, perhaps he always hands out the maximum punishment as per the Divine law (which one should note is not a death sentence in every case). It's possible that a LE Roffie's differences may only surface once he attains Power within an organization.

At the end of the day, LE is possible, but it's a tightrope walk. In many ways, this is good for Layonara. The church's legal system is policed by an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient force. Now its influence may not stretch to all lands, but Divine law seems a solid standard to follow.

[Gulnyr]

So now alignment has nothing to do with current actions or desires, but what a character might do in some distant, uncertain future?  And even in that distant, uncertain future, one Evil trait or one type of Evil action negates all Neutral and Good traits and actions, forcing an Evil alignment?

No character is a perfect example of any alignment.  Every character does things leaning away from his alignment from time to time.  It's expected that a Good character will do a little Evil (and a lot of Neutral), and that a Chaotic character will do some Lawful stuff (and a lot of Neutral stuff).  If a character "walks a tightrope" between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil, and most of his "falls" from the tightrope land on the Neutral side, he's Lawful Neutral.  It's expected he'll do something Evil now and then, or that he has an Evil trait of some sort.  That doesn't make him Evil.  It makes him normal and well within the predicted range of Lawful Neutral characters.

[Shiokara]

I don't think of it as what a character would do in its future, so much as I think of what a character would do if given the chance.

Backing out now. This thread is getting a little too heated for my tastes.