Champion spellcasting synergy

[davidhoff]

I know there aren't that many champions in game, but it would be neat if the champion levels were like spellsword levels, in that they give you caster levels/benefits every other level to be added to your base paladin or cleric caster levels.

[Dorganath]

Unlike Spellswords that have a requirement of an arcane casting class to be present, there is no requirement that a Champion be a Cleric or Paladin first. There are RP requirements and Weapon proficiencies and BAB requirements, but there is no mechanical requirement for any sort of divine class to be present before one can take Champion levels. Though it is a common path to take, it is not necessary for a Champion to have any pre-existing divine ability whatsoever.  As such, I would argue that spellcasting synergy is not an appropriate add-on in this case.

[davidhoff]

Thanks for the response, and I did realize that there is no spellcasting req. for Champions.  I don't necessarily see that as a bar to not change it though.  Those Champions with spellcasting would get the benefit and those without wouldn't.  The Champion synergy doesn't have to be just-like the Spellswords or others.

My reasoning is that being a Champion doesn't, to me, feel like you're giving up on your Cleric or Paladin status, but rather you are strengthening them and becoming an even more devout Cleric or Paladin.  It feels more like a natural extension, and one where you're spellcasting prowess should continue.  Have the gods turned away from their Champion and punished them by ceasing their spell casting growth?  Obviously no, and this is why I think the spellcasting synergy should be there for Champions.  He He, but that's my take, and I understand your point to.

[Dorganath]

Understood, but I don't see it as being as complementary as you suggest.  Again, there is not a requirement that a Champion have any casting ability at all. And no, the deity is not turning his back on or punishing his Champions in any way. I'm not even sure I understand that argument.  They aren't being punished at all, but they are also not being given something more in terms of spellcasting. That's not a punishment, that's just the lack of an additional bonus.  Rather, the Champion is granted additional abilities that are simply not possessed by either Cleric or Paladin.  Why? Because a Champion is...simply put...a champion in the classical sense for a deity...one who fights (literally) for one's deity and who is arguably more aligned with one's deity than even a Cleric or a Paladin.

The path of the Champion takes one away from a path of spellcasting.  Look at the feats one gets as a Champion. In the Toranite/Voraxian case, there's Lay on Hands, Sacred Defense, Smite Evil and Divine Wrath.  These can be best described as a specific form of channeling of divine power as gifts from a deity to his Champion, but they are not really spell-like at all. This is especially true of the more defensive feats, which are an excellent example of a deity gracing his Champion with better saves and DR.  Doesn't sound much like a punishment to me. *winks*

RP significance aside, Champion is essentially a martial class, not a caster class. I agree, it would be "neat" but I just don't think it fits.

[davidhoff]

Point well taken and I appreciate the detailed explanation.

*Griff walks away and shrugs to Daniella hiding in the bushes*

//jk'g :rolleyes:

[Lance Stargazer]

Take Lance and Daniella in this case.  earlier they had some discussions on this regard and at some point of the life of both characters they had to follow the "call" of the plans of Toran . Lance always said that his weak points was his blessings , but now with the skills he has he is able to pull some good ones , on the other hand Daniella has gone way more into the martial class.

The diference here is with the Undead Slayer, Take Quantum or Jillian as an example as they learn and keep learning spellcasting even if at slower rate.  They don't get the extra feats that champions get.

[Alatriel]

My ears were burning.

I don't actually have a problem with Daniella not having more spells as a champion.  That's part of the sacrifice she made when she accepted Toran's calling to become Champion.  It fits who she is and who she's become.  It's one of those things that I just have grown accustomed to, maybe, but at the same time she (in theory) would be surrounded by others that can make up for what she can't do.  People aren't meant to be able to do everything, and there are tons of people that can't do what she does.  Divine Wrath, for example.  Now, if I were to ask for something to be changed, or for something that I would've loved as a possibility with my WL item/reward would have been to be able to use Divine Wrath more than once per day.  An extra wrath feat similar to an extra smiting feat.  In my opinion that would be a feat suggestion that would work more with what the class is because it is martially geared and unique to the class.  Champions are fighters.  They get weapon proficiencies, and they get saving throws that help them in their fighting- Fort saves just like a fighter.  But because they are Champions they get to use their CHA bonus to help them as well because their god is supporting their fighting.  None of that would suggest that they would gain spells.  However, because a paladin can freely multiclass with champion levels if approved, if you really want more spellcasting levels, you're free to take more levels of paladin once you've taken 5 levels of Champ.

So... just my two trues... but I have no issues with the way it is.

[Lance Stargazer]

Just adding that it was not with the intent of making it sound as if dani ( or you as a player were not in agreement with how things are.  I was just using the example to put up the fact that champion is indeed more martial class than caster ( divine caster ).

If I made it sound as something else, It was not my intention.

[Alatriel]

No worries, but since my name was mentioned as if I was hiding in the bush (*winks at davidhoff*) and as the only other active Champion at this time that I am aware of, and one who has had the class for a while now, I figured I should offer up my 2 trues.