Lawful evil Corathian

[drakogear]

Often wandered why Corath "the Lord Manipulator" was Chaotic evil instead of Neutral Evil or Lawful Evil. Sure he desires to spread chaos but could one not do that in a more lawful way? By "Manipulating" the laws and traditions of society?

Example:

Freedom of speech:
The corathian grabs a box and sets it in the center of town square then stands upon it and preaches about some random thing. Some people gather and listen as others find him annoying and want him out of there town. So the annoyed hire anyone willing to help but the preacher simply ignores the hied help. Soon swords are drawn as they try to force the preacher out but the Rofireinites step in and haul away the hired help as they attempted to break the law but assaulting the preacher. So the preacher is free again to continue his preaching.

Now with no one willing to help the annoyed, what are they to do? Frustrated by the preacher the annoyed decide to form together into a riot. After all, the Rofireinites can't stop all of them can they? So now with the rioters marching toward the preacher, the Rofireinits try to hold them off as the preacher has his now mindless followers turn to defend him. The whole tome now in chaos, the Corathian simply walks straight out the front gate just before it is sealed.

Heh, silly Rofireinite, they try so hard to keep the peace. They couldn't really do anything to the corathian, After all, what laws was he breaking.

[Script Wrecked]

Being a Corathite. :p

[Shiokara]

Script's got it, naturally.

Other crimes, punishable by imprisonment for less than a year, forced labor, flogging, or community service:

    Worshiping deities recognized to be evil

from [LORE]Law of Layonara[/LORE]

[drakogear]

eh, true, but as any Corathian (or Corathite) they keep there religion well hidden.

[Aphel]

Only for the eyes of the regular folk. Clerics and Paladins could still find out (?).

[drakogear]

Maybe, but not all of Rofireins enemies are evil. Xeen, Mist and Katherian are neutral.

[Alatriel]

Clerics can determine if someone follows an enemy of Rofirein.  Just because Xeen, Ilsare, and Mist are not necessarily "evil" does not mean that Rofireinites would not see them that way either.  They are corruptors just the same because they are chaotic.  Paladins of Rofirein, however, cannot tell who someone follows unless it's openly shown, but they can sense evil.  So, if you have a Cleric/Paladin combination, it can work very well.

On another note:  This is not 21st Century United States.  Freedom of Speech is not exactly something that is generally true.  Inciting a riot is inciting a riot.  Demonstrations, disturbing the peace, civil disobedience are not exactly things that are commonplace and accepted.  Think medieval times.  This is the Golden Rule:  Those who have the gold make the rules.  There are some countries that are more considerate of the lower classes than others certainly, but they are not democracies.  There is still a ruling class.  The difference is simply how that ruling class chooses to run their countries.

If this was attempted in Prantz, the penalties for openly worshipping any other deity besides Sulterio would be dire.

It's hard to sometimes remember that this is NOT a modern society, but that's what makes it challenging and interesting.

[lonnarin]

Evil isn't necessarily criminal.  Take an extremely harsh Rofirienite judge who hands down sentences outlandishly severe for minor infractions, or a heartless robber-baron business tycoon who forecloses on orphanages for personal gain.  A paladin who senses evil in such characters could not immediately bust them because the laws and establishment of the lands may prevent him from doing so.  Even though their morals are wrong, no criminal wrong has been done.  Likewise, a good-hearted Robin Hood type could quickly find himself executed for his actions.

And then there's Sulterio.  Perhaps the most impressive accomplishment of Rael has been taking this most-hated boogeyman of the Deep and playing politics to turn him around and make him truly loved by most of the people who feel generally safe under his despotic rule.  I would wager that in many civilized lands which have trade deals and owe Prantz thanks to their security would have lax laws on the worship of this evil god.  Of course such open worship would surely have one flogged to death in Voraxian halls like Ulgrid.  For the most part though, Sulterio's cold and harsh perseverance isn't all that criminal, just very cold-hearted and unyielding.  You have to respect Rael for that.  He's taken a faith with NO ALLIES and made it at least diplomatically permissible, for fear of military and economic reprisal, and made the seat of the old empire his stomping grounds.  He has made inroads into spreading his influence like wildfire with diplomacy and economic supremacy to the point where his people may even be protected in many cities.  His people thank him for his despotic rule, and only a few years before his rule started they would likely be killed on sight.  THAT is power.

I certainly agree with Alatriel that modern notions like freedom of speech and property rights are hardly widespread in medieval or fantasy settings.  They aren't even all that widespread in the non-western modern world!  There are still nations out there which will stone you to death for adultery, chop off you hand for stealing or execute you as an enemy of the state for speaking your mind.  Such practices might even be the norm in many of our townships and city states in Layo.  I'd hate to see what happens to thieves in Arnax, to rabble rousers in Prantz or even to non-evil necromancers in most progressive cities outside of Leringard.  If a necromancer declares himself as such in a small town not accustomed to magic, he is likely to be swarmed by a mob of angry peasants or branded a villain worthy of killing for the mere stygma of his profession.  Even sorcerers or wizards of more acceptable paths may be ostracized and hunted.

Most notable I think are followers of Shadon.  Now Shadon himself is not all that evil!  He is a trickster and prankster, a funny man and an imp... but legal authority and paladins hate him with a passion and would likely see his followers in the stocks, flogged harshly.  Since everything about him spits in the eye of authority, authority figures will seek out his people and try to lock them up on sight in most large cities.  He is a witless rabble rouser, a malcontent, a foppish buffoon and a bastion of the ill-mannerd, badly behaved heretics.  One does not mock the legitimate authority!

Refusal to pay taxes or obey the legitimate (or nefarious) authority of any city state will have one run afoul of the law.  Concepts like liberty and free speech are almost alien in most places.  I think the only race which has any record of something resembling a democratic republic are the elected halfling and gnomish leadership of small rural communities.  The larger the city and the stronger the government, the more likely you are to run afoul of draconic laws and harsh punishment.  The only exceptions might be those few monarchies run by decidedly progressive and kind-hearted rulers which break the norm.  Power is power, and does not take kindly to being defied.  Add a plethora of opposing religions and dogma to the mix, and you might well find even followers of goodly gods oppose eachother violently. Like Vorax and Lucinda... *shudders*  Or Lucinda and Toran.  Storold and Alarik froth at each other as they would any Corathite. (kudos to Storold too for RPing his animosity towards the "enemy" so well too!)

I think what keeps followers of Corath from being lawful is his methods and his community with the undead.  For someone to worship him truly beyond just in name, one would have to embrace trickery, cruelty, a hatred for authority and see a world run amok with waves of zombies as a good thing.  WHich is why I wish Shadison had ascended, since his MO seemed to be more of a LE scheming evil in the darkness, and less of a betrayal obsessed liar and trickster, ravager of life.  It's much the same way that a true follower of Pyrtechon could never be lawful.  I think the great red's own clergy assassinates themselves many times a year to attain the head position of the faith!  One does not found nations under Pyrtechon or Corath, they demolish them and laugh over the pitifully mewling ashes with malice.  It's the faiths like these and the two dark elven gods that would immediately fall under the "imprison on sight" laws of most cities.  Branderback worshippers too, but not so much from his creed as from the actions of his underhanded and villainous followers.  It was said in another thread that if one follows Branderback, it's not necessarily that crime that is the issue, but what other crimes one may commit regularly in his name.  These people have no concept of ownership rights of morality.  To truly worship Branderback, one would be a thief, a liar and a villainous felon.  At the very most socially acceptable, perhaps an unscrupulous merchant who cheats his customers or a corrupt power broker without qualms of walking over anybody in his way.

[darkstorme]

I should point out in Lonnarin's post above that by "draconic" laws, he means "draconian".  While Rofirein's laws are technically "draconic", they generally aren't particularly draconian.  Conversely, laws in places like Katherian are draconian indeed.

[lonnarin]

I should point out in Lonnarin's post above that by "draconic" laws, he means "draconian".  While Rofirein's laws are technically "draconic", they generally aren't particularly draconian.  Conversely, laws in places like Katherian are draconian indeed.

Very true!  Thanks for catching that.   Freudian slip mixing fantasy with politics!