Attention Mages - Melee Fighting

[Dorganath]

I beg to differ...a fighter/mage multiclass is not a powerhouse.
  My primary character is a sorcerer/fighter. At 20th level now, he can draw some pretty powerful spawns, but with the fighting ability of a 6th level fighter (well, slightly better, but you get the point) and the spell-casting ability of a 14th level sorcerer, the only things he can really handle well, solo, are the low/mid level spawns. And in addition, he doesn't have/use any polymorph/Tenser's spells and the only summon he currently has is Greater Shadow Conjuration, which is just illusion and not as good as the real thing.
  In my case, against a 6th level fighter, he's strong. Against a 14th level mage, he's strong. Against another 20th level character (pure or multiclass), not so much.
  Edit: At least in the case of a fighter/mage combo, there's an RPreason to go melee.

[blonde]

Bottom line is, spell casting classes are (potentially) stronger than non-spell casting classes. That is how it is, how it always have been, and how it should be. But the point is, that it is in a party of different classes that you really get the most out of every one. A mage is much stronger with a fighter in front of him, a fighter is much stronger with a cleric to buff and heal, and this list could go on.

The classes are very different and that is a main reason why i like this game. We all know that a well balanced party will get you much farther than any mage or other could solo. Not to mention you would a lot more fun doing it. I really dont think Tenser's is stronger than a fighter of the same level, maybe compared to a solo fighter, but if the fighter was buffed he would be way stronger than the Tenzer'ed mage.

All that being said, i could see the transformation spells being put on a longer rest timer. They are probably extremely taxing spells to cast for a mage, so it would make sense to need a bit longer between casting them. But that is for the balancing team to decide.

[Varnart]

I think this would better be solved if we had non-combat spells. For example, instead of giving wizards a teleport at level 14 (I think), actually put the teleport in game. Dimension door is a level 4 spell, makes you teleport short distances, and takes up Polymorph slots. Tenser's is a level 6 spell, right? Change it to level 7, and then bam! there's that Greater Teleport taking up slots.
  As for Fighter/Wizards being overpowered, have you ever played one? It's HELL to get past the first few levels. You don't have as much HPs and AB as a fighter, your spell durations suck, and you gotta split your money between weapons, potions, armor, and spell components. Then you get to the mid-levels: Yeah, that's the paradise of fighter/wizards, where you can cast extended buffs that last your whole rest timer, you can afford good weapons and armor, and you can deal tons of damage with greatsword+bull's strength+flame weapon. Then come the high levels. You start to notice your BAB is a LOT lower than the other fighters you know, monsters have great damage reduction and elemental resistance, have high attack bonuses, and enemy mages can dispel your buffs on GM quests.
  As for wizards being too powerful, I think not. I mean, we can't cast fireballs cuz they'll hurt our party members, there's no use in casting missiles because when they get there the monster is already dead, and now the fighters don't like us having some fun?
  Just my 2 copper pieces

[Pibemanden]

Ok... Mage/fighters may not be a powerhouse when you reach the high levels and GO high level places. But compared to other high levels in low level areas they have an advantage. But I am not blaming any one of building strong characters, all I am saying is that I would like to have the rest-buff-put on armor thing stopped because it isn't good rp. If you want the benifits of wearing armor and buffing you either have to still your spells or try to beat the armor failure check.
And for the part of playing a fighter/mage I am actually playing one but I haven't reached the high levels yet so I wouldn't know how strong the build will be when I get there. I can only speak about what I am expiriencing now.

[Aragon]

I agree with what the mage players are saying.  Most spells have already been altered to prevent them doing massive amounts of damage.  Mages are the hardest low level characters to play.  They have very few spells as the start and can not wear armor.  Compare that to a fighter who can go straight out into the world and kick butt.  

Too often it seems that the answer to all the problems on Layonara is to change the spells.  No one is saying that fighters shouldn't be allowed to have big swords that do a lot of damage.  It was said earlier that a fighter does damage every round (with mulitple attacks), a spell for the most part is a one time burst of damage (ignoring those effects which damage mulitple rounds).  

Raising the resting timer once again kills the mage.  If a single spell is hurting the balance of the game then eliminate it from the game.  Don't punish all spellslingers for a handful of players.  If Tenser's Transformation is the problem disable it and lets move on.  Don't cripple the mages anymore.

To prove my point look at some of the high level mages and what they have started doing .. multiclassing.  Why?  I believe it is because most of the upper end spells are either way toned down or worthless.  I could site a few examples but I think most know what I am talking about.

***Note*** I don't have a mage character.  I do have a cleric and I didnt' even mention how some of the divine spells have been reduced.

[Varnart]

By the way, if you're going to remove Tenser's then remove Divine Power as well. With Divine Power clerics make the best fighters in the game, especially archers with Zen Archery.

[steverimmer]

If Tensers is the problem then just make it a mage version of divine power...ie stop the transformation, lose the sword and just give the increased stats and hp.  I know that someone said that if a staff is buffed etc it can be a better weapon than the Tensers sword yet that holds just as much true for the cleric.  I've just cast it on Bil unbuffed and it only has an armour class of 22 and two hits per round.  Considering a fighter of the same level has four hits per round and this only lasts for two turns at level 20 I don't really think it could be classed as overpowered...its just that other wizard spells give AC and DR and can be used with this spell.  But there again so can a cleric with Divine Power.  It should be a better spell anyway than Divine Power given that it is two spell levels higher.  On the other hand if you just want to stop mages engaging in melee then you don't really have much more of an option than to ditch the spell, but I bet that the same problem will come up with the other polymorph spells afterwards.

[Dorganath]

I'm going to steer this conversation back to the core issue.
  The problem is NOT the spells. The problem is how some mage characters choose to use the spells and abuse game mechanics.
  On a quest earlier today, we had instances where the mages more or less HAD to get into melee. The reasons were simple...lots of enemies, some spell-resistant, some (beholderkin) who had a nasty habit of dispelling buffs AND significant difficulties resting due to the previously-mentioned lots of enemies. In my personal opinion, such uses of Tenser's and Polymorph were appropriate for the situation, done so in a party-based environment and ultimately the right choice. If these spells were removed or weakened, the tide of our battles likely would have gone a different, and a very negative, way.
  Used properly and in the environment upon which Layonara is designed (that being parties), there is nothing wrong with these spells.
  Once again, I bring up personal responsibility of those who play mage characters. We shouldn't have to nerf anything. I don't think we even want to. But the levels of spell abuse across all casting classes can get quite silly.

[Pibemanden]

Dorganath - 2/5/2006  11:45 PM   Once again, I bring up personal responsibility of those who play mage characters.  We shouldn't have to nerf anything.  I don't think we even want to.  But the levels of spell abuse across all casting classes can get quite silly.

 If the problem is spell abuse then we should try to make some guidelines so a player would know what is good and what is bad.

[Dorganath]

To quote orth at the top of this thread:
 

Just because you are capable of performing something with the Bioware system is not an implicit declaration that the Layonara team approves of it. If you know something's really wrong and against the spirit of the world, it's simple DON'T DO IT.

 Do you really want us to spend time defining every possible abuse, along with corollaries, special cases and exceptions? Or would you rather we spent that time putting effort into expanding and enhancing this game world?
  Really...it's not that hard. If it seems like you're getting away with something, you probably are. Layonara is a low-magic world. Contrast with Forgotten Realms (which NWN was designed for) which is high-magic. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's right.
  The choice is simple. Either the mage community begins to show some level of responsibility and self-enforcement, or the Team will have to make some changes that no one will like.

[LoganGrimnar]

I dont think the magic itsself you should reduced. I think the approvel of the Classes sould be. Ive alwese had the idea that a mage/sorc is a rather rare thing. And more so on a so called "Low magic server" So instead of taking what the Arcanists can do and limiting it more. Make the class harder to be approved for. In most stories magic usesers are generaly feared and disliked byt he commen foke, if the classes themselves were limited more, then this could be better shown.

I use the summen spells alot, and ive alwese thought that it was a bet easy for me to be able to solo about anywhere. But what i have come to nitice is that just becouse i can solo it with a golem dosent mean i should. Mainly in the case of exp. with a golem i get about 95 exp for a certen critter, without i get about 150 or so. This is why i would rather have a fighter with me over the golem. and sence the golems have been limited in there time, its much more useful to cast my buffs on a fighter so the will last for 36 turns, instead of on my golem in which case they only last tell he is expired.

As for tensers and pollymorph. Ive never used tensers much before. Polly i used often with an older char, cast fireshild, polly zombie, and get a buch of guys to attack you, worked well... though that char now has 8DT.. so maby not that well... anyways, this is only effectife for so long. eventually you dont get much.. or the monsters can kill you anyways.

Well... sence most of this hasent been productive to our topic... My opinion is to simply limit the class. Mage types are not so overpowered. Ive gone up against things that i could kill with one spell.. but oh.. whats this.. knockdown.. knockdown.. oopse im dead. Mages have huge power and Huge weaknesses, very little middle ground. I can kill a BBN or a fighter in one spell.. but if he gets to me first, im gone. I once had a test with an old friend here, he was about level 16 Bbn/Battlerager. and i was level 11. we had our little fight and ran a few tests. But everytime it was the same thing, if he got to me, i was gone, if i could stay away from him, he was gone.

Its really just a RP responsablity i guess, and to better inforce that responcablit, a limit on the class. Also, ave in alteration in a Mages rest might be effective. Maby make there rest time increased, or where they can rest. I read in teh PnP books a bet on prepareing spells and how one needs a clam quite place to rest and prepare. If there was somehow a way to add something into the game for these to limit where one can sleep... *shrugs* its just an idea and i have no idea how the engins work so i dont know if it can be implamited. Anyways im talked to long, good night all.

[ZeroVega]

LoganGrimnar - 2/5/2006 11:45 PM I dont think the magic itsself you should reduced. I think the approvel of the Classes sould be.

 I really like this idea. There are classes we restrict for their power, since Wizards and Sorcerers would definatly fall into those categories, restricting who could play them would be an interesting thing to do. Make them rarer, possibly more vital to have in a party. The only problem is that it doesn't solve the problem ofwizards and sorcerers who are currently being played and the misuse of spells. Like Orth said it's really up to the player to decide how somthing should be used and for the most part, it's common sense.

[Frendh]

I have not used polymorph spells for offensive melee use, but it's
still hard not to notice how good it can be. So I don't really care
if it becomes weakened or not, which might be a problem when I now
give suggestions/opinions.

The selective(for the spell in question only) 24h rest timer seems
like a good solution at first glance, but like someone mentioned
above, there are times like in quests when you want the Tenser etc
fully powered up to reflect the proper outcome. So the long timer
would be troublesome there.

Lowering the AB(-1 ab/lvl or some such ) and make the poly spells
primarily defensive spells, would also solve the "solo monster mashing".
But like with the extended rest timer, it becomes a hindrance in some
situations.

Lowering the duration of the poly spells (by half or some such) is
probably a better way to go than the two previous ones, but still
not all that good.

Dispelling all buffs upon transformation would be devestating for people
like me who use the polymorph spells to get away. So I'm all against it.

Changing Tenser's weapon won't affect the spell as a whole all that much
on its own. And a staff gives kind of the wrong image of Tenser spell.
If you go down this road, weaken Tenser's sword instead.

Moving Tenser's up one or more spell levels might be a good solution.
I think I would have to do some proper testing to get a more exact
opinion.

This suggestion may prove impossible scriptingwise. But if you make
Tenser(since it seems it is this one that is by far the most powerful
one) a "Quest spell" by implementing an on/off toggle so the GMs can
turn it on and off at will on a server. So when the toggle is on one
or more of the above suggestions can be in use. Whenever it's on
tenser can for instance have reduced duration and/or reduced AB. Or
the spell could simply be unavaible till a GM turns the toggle off.
(edit: got on and off mixed up)

And I really really dislike the idea of restricting classes even
more than they are.

One or more seem to think that their mages are at the mercy of
fighter type people's goodwill at lower lvls, when it comes
to killing stuff in a party. I myself never had the experience
of others not wanting my sorcerer to come along because he was
ineffective during the low lvls. If anything, it has always been
the opposite. That should be saying a lot, cause he can be quite
annoying to anyone who's not immune to gnomes.

[Frendh]

Oh, yeah, I forgot to add the solution that my previous post was meant for
from the start.

Add a large xp penalty, similar to the summon penalty, when a mage solos
as Tenser or whatever is appropiate. The summon doesn't affect the xp
when it's not in the vincinity of the battle, don't forget to add that
to tenser's as well (but in like reverse?).

[Rayenoir]

I have to say I don't like the idea of restricting base classes, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  Having Paladins and Clerics adhere to a deity is one thing, it adds a certain level of roleplay to the world that you just don't get anywhere else.  Artificially limiting the number of PC spellcasters?  You do realize that, as adventurers, our characters are rare and unusual enough already.  There are thousands upon thousands of NPC people in the background that no one ever sees, the commonfolk of towns.  It's right there in the Layonara Campaign pdf.  Hlint alone has 1,830 non-adventuring population.  That makes our number of mage dragon-called look pretty low-magic by comparison.

To be perfectly honest, I don't fully understand how one solo's with Tenser's Transformation.  I've tried it before (as a fighter/wizard, buffed-up melee is my primary attack normally anyway), and unless I have greater stoneskin on, it's not pretty (due to the loss of ac from my armor getting shunted off, I get hit a lot more).  Are these folks applying Tenser's transformation after buffing completely?  In which case, isn't that what wizards/sorcs are supposed to do, use magic to their advantage?  Is the problem here that people are soloing?  Or that people are soloing by pretending to be a class that they're not?  I've seen clerics cruise across places solo with, as people have said, Divine Favor(or is it Power?  Whatever gives them the AB of a fighter and a str of 18 if they don't already have it) underneath their own myriad buffs.  Wiz/sorc can't even cast while transformed.  Clerics still can. (I didn't mean this as a dig toward clerics.  I travel with one regularly, and more often than not I would've gotten myself very killed without him, but the fact of the matter is there)

I noticed some people mentioning area-effect wiz/sorc spells like fireball being a limitation in themselves.  I have only a couple of things to say to that.  Get your party some elemental protections, travel with a cleric that can cast Spell Resistance, or find people with evasion (or learn to aim, but I realize that's kind of difficult when in laggy situations).  I travelled in a group yesterday in which everyone had one of the above.  I was throwing Cone of Cold like there was no tomorrow, and I heard no complaints.  You may not *like* using spell slots to provide resistance to your party, but it's better than not casting area effects at all if that's what you really want to do.  Tradeoffs.  It's not impossible, you just need to work out how to do it.

*breathes*

After saying all that, I must agree with Frendh's idea.  Put an XP penalty on people while they are Tenser'ed.  If they're going to fight like a summon, they should get XP like they have a summon out.

edited ->  I also like the idea of limited duration and slower duration progression as miltonyorkcastle suggested below.  It slows up the effectiveness of the spell without making it worthless or taking it out altogether.

Finally, I disclaim all of the above, as most probably know my primary character is a fighter/wizard.  So while I tried to avoid too much bias in the above, some is going to slip in no matter how hard I try.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Okay, lots to comment on here.

First, as has been said, especially in a low magic world, between the levels of 11 and 20, mages own.  Period.  (and if you want to talk about power classes, talk about clerics.  Nothing solo's like a cleric.)  Here's a breakdown:

1-10: fighters rule.
11-20: mages rule.
21-30: fighters rule again, but need heavy support from mages for "toughies"
31-40: fighters reign supreme, as their saves and magical gear cover everything.

Of note:  Clerics pretty well get the best of both worlds and are the most self-sufficient class.  Bar-none.

Secondly, whatever you do, please, DO NOT raise the toughness of the monsters.  Having played on powerservers, the bar keeps raising as the PC's have to find new and more ingenious ways of abusing the AI to defeat monsters until the monsters are beyond god status.  It's ridiculous.  However, I don't want to weaken the PC's either.

Third, there are a number of damage spells that are so very useful in PnP, that are plain stupid to use here, unless you get lucky and have some really nice rogues as front-liners.  I.E. Cone of Cold.  

Fourth, increasing the Rest duration is no good, IMHO.  I could go into a whole discussion on that, but I'd rather offer a solution to the existing problem.  So, here it is:


Milty's TENSER/POLYMORPH/SHAPECHANGE Solution for Mages.  (que thunder and ominous music)

As so many spells have, create a "cap" in power for polymorphing.  That is, just as magic missle gains a new missle every odd level, then caps at ninth, I would suggest having Tenser's (since this is the primary offender) have a slower rate in it's duration increases, and then cap off.  As it is, I believe it lasts a round per level.  Change it to this:

Tenser's lasts 1 round every 2 levels, up to a maximum of 10 rounds.  

This accomplishes three things:

1) Soloing will be long and boring.  Even with summons to act as tanks, a mage using Tenser's will run out of "juice" long before the battle is done, twice as fast as before, in fact, and will be forced to recast far more often.  Even sorcs with tons of spells will find themselves out of spells (using Tenser's especially, with the spell loss it incurs) after one solo battle, and have to sit around and wait another 8 minutes before they can get their spells back.

2) The spell is still useful for a mage to use to support a party.  Five rounds as Tenser's does plenty of nice damage.  And it can still be used as an "oh crap!" spell by that same token.

3) A mage will never stay transformed so long that he becomes the "fighter with a bag of magic tricks"  It will take getting to 20th lvl just to last ten rounds transformed, and will never go beyond that.

Right, so, that's Milty's cure-all for polymorph problems.  Duration caps, and perhaps in some cases, slow down the duration-increase rate.

And having said all this, I am in favor of bringing back some of the power to the mass damage spells.  Fighters are supposed to be most efficient one on one, while mages are supposed to be most efficient against mass enemies.  Capping the duration on things that make caster's into fighters makes it much more applicable to give them some of their mass damage back.

[Talan Va'lash]

orth - 2/4/2006  1:59 PM

The amount of level 8+ mages soloing and/or transforming into a melee attacker are becoming a concern to the team.  How do you think we should address this problem?  

Is it enough to ask that you consider the focus of this server towards roleplaying and a balanced system please.  If that's not enough then maybe the mages can speak up on how they'd expect us to make changes.  If you don't - expect anything from more drastic rest measurements, required components for spells even if you have eschew, 24 hour spell timers (real life 24 hours), mana systems.  We don't want to go through all that trouble.

Just because you are capable of performing something with the Bioware system is not an implicit declaration that the Layonara team approves of it.  If you know something's really wrong and against the spirit of the world, it's simple DON'T DO IT.

Thanks!

What exactly is the problem then?

Mages are using Tensor's transformation.  Is that the problem?  The recent post that this is not about spells made me go back and read the original post to figure out exactly what this was about then and its not at all clear.

Using the spells that exist is wrong?

"If you know something's really wrong"

I don't.  And to have players police themselves and avoid doing whatever is being refered to here, then what that is must be much more explicitly stated.

I guess more clear communication is what is needed here to communicated exactly what the offending issue is here.

-TV

[Crunch]

I think it would help if we defined soloing and had a rule similar to the camping rule for soloing.  At some level I think a character should be able to get resources by himself.  (e.g. It seems obvious to me that my 14th level fighter should be allowed to get copper by himself.  He can also easily get platinum by himself in the bottom of haven and I think this is probably OK).  My 15th level mage can get fire opals by himself.  Is that OK?  I really am not sure on that one.

Perhaps soloing might be defined by xp per creature.  (i.e. if you get 1 xp per creature it seems obvious that you are only getting resources. The giants are closer to 200 xp apiece so they do give pretty good xp)  Any thoughts?

[Frendh]

Talan:

The problem is that Tenser is decently strong across the board. Decent turns
quickly into Very strong as the buffs heap up as the mage gets lvls. Especially
for wizards. You get 3 attacks wich all counts as first attack. The AB does not
decrease with the second and third, like with normal characters. The AB doesn't
cap, but increases with lvls. AC caps at some not too impressive number.

Then (before using tenser obviously. This is the way I talk) you cast all the
buffs you generally cast on a fighter. You know how it goes. The mage is still
quite inferior compared to a fighter type. The crazy stuff starts now. You
add Greater Stoneskin, Acid sheath or Elemental Shield, Shadow Shield, Premonition,
Shield, Energy Buffer, lesser, normal or greater Spell Mantle and Finally a buffed
summon. I may have missed one or two goodies.

When you transform into Tenser you get a nice buffer of Temporary HPs. As soon
as you notice you are about to lose the whole buffer, you quickly withdraw
change back to normal, recast Greater Stone Skin then change into Tenser again.
Changing to and from Tenser is basicly like using healing spells on yourself
if you do it right.

If you do this, you are probably twice as strong as any fighter type at the same
lvl. I realize what goodies(self only buffs) you can use varies depending on
what lvl you are currently at.

I believe they(GMs) don't mind it being powerful, but they do not want it to be used
for hours and hours of mindless solowork.

When you use certain spell combos and notice "Wow! I can't do anything even close to
this with any other class." you should consider to start using the combo in moderation.
It's not likely a combo that was meant for Layo.

[miltonyorkcastle]

*Looks up* Hence my Duration Cap idea.  It will be impossible to do any efficient (still could do it, just would be aweful slow) solo work for "hours and hours."  Unless you are 18th or better, in which case, you _should_ be able to solo 90% of Dregar, and should probably be in a party roaming Xantril.