Attention Mages - Melee Fighting

[orth]

The amount of level 8+ mages soloing and/or transforming into a melee attacker are becoming a concern to the team.  How do you think we should address this problem?  

Is it enough to ask that you consider the focus of this server towards roleplaying and a balanced system please.  If that's not enough then maybe the mages can speak up on how they'd expect us to make changes.  If you don't - expect anything from more drastic rest measurements, required components for spells even if you have eschew, 24 hour spell timers (real life 24 hours), mana systems.  We don't want to go through all that trouble.

Just because you are capable of performing something with the Bioware system is not an implicit declaration that the Layonara team approves of it.  If you know something's really wrong and against the spirit of the world, it's simple DON'T DO IT.

Thanks!

[Ar7]

As I see it, such actions are a result of previous changes that were implemented. Spells that were considered overpowering, those that in essence formed a base for any spellcaster (meaning they were cast the most) were changed in a way that made them quite ineffective. I am speaking of Firebrand, Greater Isaac's Storm and some others. In a situation where a mage needs many direct damage spells to defeat a group of monsters or a single polymorph spell, it is obvious that many will choose the latter. It is simply a question of efficiency.

I suggest making the direct damage spells more powerful and as a counter effect, nerf the polymorph spells. This will help bring back the mages to their original roles.

Such actions will also change the situation where in a large party, a mage can be rather useless. His only role is to haste and cast stoneskin. Many of the creatures have a large amount of hitpoints and a Firebrand or Isaacs storm really don't make a difference to the outcome of the battle, they only quicken the ineventable victory. The damage dealt by firebrand to a monster is roughly the same that a fighter deals out when he hits a monster. The only thing is that a mage has a very limited amount of spells, but a fighter deals out damage many times per round.

The situation with epic level monsters is even worse, there only melee damage makes a difference, because the creatures are often immune to most spells.

No wonder the mage chooses to go into the melee, it makes him a much more efficient character. So make the spells more powerful and nerf the polymorphs, give the mages the ability to do what they were supposed to be good at.

PS. I myself have always only one Tenser's memorised and use it as a last chance spell. When everything else is exhausted, I charge in.

[Varnart]

I personally can't see what's wrong with using polymorph a lot. Myself I mostly use it to heal in troll-form, I prefer to fight in halfling-form. Maybe you could get enemy casters touse dispel magic to get the mages back to normal form. This, coupled with the above mentioned increase of the usefulness of energy damage spells, would help a lot. It's already hard enough to be a damage mage with the normal spells, it's a lot better to be a control mage with acid fog and such, an enchanter with Hold Person, Dominate Person, etc,an illusionist, or a necromancer. Damage mages are one of the weakest kind of characters ever, no need to nerf them.

[steverimmer]

Personally I've always thought that rest's should be limited to one rest only in every 24 hour 'game time period ' anyway.  But I don't think that the other systems are really fair...especially if you start requiring componants for spells even if the eschew feats are taken.  Basically I would say that the polymorph spells shouldn't merge any armour, items or weapon bonuses, if I remember correctly the polymorph spell does but the shapechange spell doesn't.  
  The problem with tenser's is that it is a PnP spell and I think that the NWN version is the same as the PnP one.  However I think that if you really feel the need to change it the best thing you can do is to cap the time it operates for and prevent it being used as an extended spell.
  However the real problem is with NWN and its lack of available spells compared with PnP and I'm not really taking about combat spells but the more interesting ones which could be used out of combat.  Its something I hope that NWN2 will address.
  By the way Bil always has either a polymorph spell or a shapechange spell memorised in case he runs out of spells and he's still in a dark smelly place. For him its a last resort as a happy goblin has a whole party of adventurers between him and danger

[Dorganath]

In response to Varnart, there's not a problem with polymorph on its own. The problem comes in when it's used to turn a weakling party mage into a solo tank for a short period of time. The world was built around groups and RP, not solo mages able to tear up a continent.
  In the past, there have been certain combinations of spells which were abused to no end by a small group of mages and ultimately the Team weakened them as a result.
  As a member of the GM Team, Co-lead Content Developerand as a player whose main character is a Sorcerer/Fighter, the primary responsibility for keeping things in balance falls to the player base. For the Team to do it is a lot of work that we shouldn't have to do. And remember that we're all doing this on a volunteer basis.
  But most importantly, if the Team makes and enforces changes, you the mage player base will most likely not appreciate them at all. Yes, it would be a matter of a few bad actors spoiling things for the rest, but sometimes it has to be done when all other methods are insufficient.

[blonde]

I think what orth is saying, is that casters shouldnt use the transformation spells as a means to easily run around and solo stuff. If you are in a party, and the mage use a transformation spell to aid the party, i think that would be exactly the meaning with having the spell. Of the transformation spells, its only really tenser's that is effective as an offensive spell. The shapechange forms have much lower AB, and are really more like a defensive spell.

Like Ar7 says, a transformation spell is good to have as a last resort, when spells run out or are useless to the situation. That is the way i use them too.

I do see the point about the damage spells being too weak for many situations, leaving the mage to choose alternative spells, which are often much more effective in a party anyway. Heh, so my point is, to quote orth, "If you know something's really wrong and against the spirit of the world, it's simple DON'T DO IT."

EDIT: Wow, 3 posts before i could get my little response typed up.

[ZeroVega]

I don't think the point of this is whether or not it's O.K. for mages to use Shapechange or Polymorph spells at all. It's a spell, and they're gonna use it. The only problem is when mages start soloing like a fighter with a baggie full of magic tricks. It's sort of like before, when wizards could cast Elemental Sheild, Mestil's Acid Sheath, and Death Armor, then pop on Ethereal Visage, soak up the damage and let the sheilds dish it out. Now, I'll be the first person to admit I used that a few times, but once I figured out it was giving me an advantage that just wasn't right I stopped. It's about balance, and for a server that is build for parties no one should be able to solo around the world and level like it is being suggested that people are. (Did that make sense?)

ZV-

[Nyralotep]

My .02.

I usually am not able to get on during the time when most are logged into the server.  So when I have Nob I like to craft so I go and gather stuff.  I'm not getting to any level quick where Nob goes since he just can't handle much on his own.  I've used troll form before when I take a good amouont of hits to help regenerate quicker and I've even used it in party play when I see someone is getting overwhelmed.  

I wish it was easy enough to just say, don't do it and we wouldn't do it on Layo but someone usually ends up doing it anyway.  As to a fix, I am not sure, longer rest periods will end up penalizing the mages and penalizing parties that use mages since the spells will be longer in coming.

@ steverimmer, I don't like the idea of requiring components even if I have eschew, those are feats Nob has taken and if they become useless then Nob effectively took those feats for no reason.  And as rare as feats are I wouldn't like to see that happen.

I do think the Ar7 has a good point, Nob has Issac's Greater and it's really a prety much a useless spell since it has a hard time killing a monster, by the time I get it off in a party the monster is dead.  So I just do buffs in a party since I really can't contribute any other way effectively.  Troll form does merge the armor but not jewelry, I lose spells when I transform, even with Tenser's.  Tenser's is a last resort spell for me as well as it doesn't last that long.  Maybe nerf the polymorph spell to either round/level or somehow the casters armor comes off and buff spells are removed.  Just an idea.

[Thunder Pants]

the problem with Tensers is the fact that it gives you Tensers sword, if we can change it so that you must use yor staff or what ever  weapon you have equiped it doesn't become as bad anymore because the characters arn't getting a free flaming +5 sword

[ZeroVega]

Thunder Pants - 2/4/2006 6:31 PM the problem with Tensers is the fact that it gives you Tensers sword, if we can change it so that you must use yor staff or what ever weapon you have equiped it doesn't become as bad anymore because the characters arn't getting a free flaming +5 sword

 *coughs* It's actually a +3 Flaming Sword.

[Thunder Pants]

still it's a flaming sword they shouldn't have, Tensers isn't supposed to give them any kind of weapon proficiency and as such while i agree they should be allowed to cast it, if they are forced to use their querterstaffs at best it's much more ballanced

[blonde]

Greater magic weapon, rod 4 fire, flame weapon...and the staff is better than the sword. That wont change anyhting.

[Qui_Z]

Maybe make it so all self buffs are dispelled while polymorphing but you are allowed to be buffed while polymorphed. This means other party members can still buff the polymorphed person, but they still have no chance of getting some spells like premonition, shadow shield, greater stoneskin or any of the magic shield spells (ontop of whatever else they have), but as long as theyre still with a party they can get spells while polymorphed.

[Varnart]

I think that would be too extreme.

[steverimmer]

hmm don't like the sound of that...usually when Bil uses it things have already gone bad and he's not in the best of health.  Without the buffs still in effect, the chances of getting away alive are not good

[Harlas Ravelkione]

My character Rashar uses Tenser a lot in combat. In fact that is how he fights the most of his battles. I RP him as if he learned to fight by the warriors he normally travels with, so for him it is not only battles, but also background and it identifies him as a character.
  Tenser is powerful, no doubt, but I also loose 1 spell on every spell lvl every time I use it, so I don't really see it as that big a deal balance-wise. Upping resting times would set an effective stop for that, but then mages would be suffering a lot more than is necessary in my opinion. It is a powerful class, but it takes one a lot of time and effort to get to lvl 10, and after that without the transformation spells one could do nothing alone. Yes, Layo was created for parties, but players (at a lvl where one can party with them) are not always around, so mages should (like priests and fighters) be able to handle things on their own. I am not saying handling things on their own means to rule a continent, but nerfing spells further might make the class under-powered.

[ZeroVega]

Here are all the problems I see here.
1. Classes will level at different speeds at different levels. Ie: Derrick leveled faster than Tath for quite a while, until Tath hit level 10-12, then he shot past Derrick for a while, that is until now, when most of the creatures that give Tath decent experiance are immuned to his magic, now Tath needs Derrick (or someone like him) in order to fight them.

2. No one class should be able to "rule a continent," and no class should be totally self sufficent, however it seems to me that there is a natural order which has been put in place that sort of works it out. Wizards can solo for a while, so can the warriors, simply at different times, and different levels.

3. And the final problem is that no matter what happens here, someone will cry "foul!" If the GMs lower these spells power, it will make some people happy, seeing that it needed to be done to control the rate of wizards gaining levels. However it may anger those who play arcane spellcasters. On the flip side, if nothing is done about it then people will start calling for something to be done. The only real solution is players policing themselves. If you can go out between levels 8 and 16, and gain a level simply by soloing, stop doing what you're doing! It's probably gonna get your entire class in deep doo-doo. Nuff said.

ZV-

[Guardian 452]

We've had too many use these methods then look back and say it should be changed.... thats lame. They knew it was wrong... then had a cow when they saw others using the same method.


Casters (Mages and Clerics) can still do more today Solo than any Fighter class can once past level 8 or so from then on.


I am very pleased to see Orth and the team present this to the public to have them try and offer fixes themselves.... but I wanger when the dust settles here the team will do what they feel is best for the world as a whole.


Remember that folks... the team thinks what is best for the entire world.... not for one class or character... I know it's easy to think one sided when it involves a race, class, etc. that you have. But sit back and look at the big picture and you will almost always see why they make the changes they do.



G-452

[Leanthar]

"....We've had too many use these methods then look back and say it should be changed.... thats lame. They knew it was wrong... then had a cow when they saw others using the same method...."

So very true, and sad.

[Talan Va'lash]

...anything from more drastic rest measurements...

When i first came to layo, I was very surprised when my rest timers didn't increase with level.  A majority of the servers I've played on that I consider well balanced (whether that balance is high, medium, or low magic) had scaling rest timers.

i.e.

1st-4th level you can rest as often as you want
5-7 - 6 min
8-10 - 9 min
11-15 - 15 min
16+ - 20 min

Or something like that.  The exact times aren't important in this example is more the concept.

I wouldn't mind something like this being implemented.  Its fairly common on other servers and deals with the issue of higher levels being able to keep "short" duration spells up almost constantly.  It also adds back in the time issue in spell tactics which is an issue that is greatly lessened around level 10 when your turn/lvl spells last the whole rest timer.

-TV