Author Topic: The Soul Mother - Still necessary? (Read 1621 times)

Shrowd Umbra · « **on:** March 05, 2009, 03:52:49 pm »

Old thread I know but I feel this fits with the age old conversation and as a new player I can tell you exactly what it is like starting out in Layonara as of late.

It is overwhelming to try and take it all in at first logging. You know where nothing is, what things do, or where to look for quests to begin building your character. Layonara is a lot to take in. Players are helpful though. Within the first day or two I had received a brief tour of the craft house and an invitation to a quest that was part of the main campaign. There I stood, little level 3 Shrowd next to people that had seen years of this game and not a single condescending comment from any of them. Shrowd was just another heroine helping out like the rest of them. (Not that she made much of a dent in the encounters but it's the thought that counts right?)

The one thing that will likely be my gripe until the end of time is not the veteran players but the fear of the new players. Not just any player, but the new hack and slash players. The fear that a band of upstarts will be able to upset the world is so prevalent that the Soul Mother seems to be taken as a perfectly acceptable trade off. People are willing to risk losing their characters to feel safer about new players.

I find that almost as stunning as the mention of the Soul Mother having taken a break at one point. My fondest dream for Layonara came true at one point, no risk of losing a character that represented months or even years of time spent. Somehow new players came in and managed to disrupt Layonara enough that the Soul Mother came out of retirement. Not only did she come out of retirement but there is a whole forum eating up GM time and energy dedicated to compensation for lost Soul Strands if you meet the very exacting criteria.

I can understand this problem. I have played other servers that allow PvP at a whim, non-NWN servers true. I learned to love playing a ranger because rangers have the excuse to not interact with other players. I could disappear into the wilderness legitimately and not risk players bullying me. Thankfully this turns out to not be needed here. Only once did I feel bullied by Layonara players and forced into a PvP. It's the only PvP I've been a part of and rather than take 2 to 1 odds I used my abilities to escape.

I will likely never take the Soul Mother as a good solution to the problem. Players being mature adults (legal ages be darned, we all know right from wrong in treating others and -that's- how I define adults) is the only surefire method. Failing that, I'd rather loose large amounts of Experience than a Soul Strand. I lost a Soul Strand due to IRL circumstances cropping up in the middle of a fight I didn't intend to pick with the monsters. Life doesn't wait for you to get to a town but because I don't meet the criteria to be reimbursed for this, I'm one step closer to losing Shrowd and all the work that goes into her. I'm closer to it because of fear of bad players. With all the good players in as high levels as they are, do we really need the Soul Mother? I'd like to see her go. I think Layonara is hardy enough to weather a few rotten eggs. There's some already here anyway.

orth · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2009, 04:20:39 pm »

Shrowd, the thread you originally posted in was not about the Soul Mother, but abusing AI in temples. I know the discussion moved a bit to that, but I didn't want that thread getting bogged down with arguments for and against, so I created a new thread.

Pseudonym · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2009, 04:27:01 pm »

I don't think I'll venture reasons for and against, there'll be contributors to this thread far more garrulous than I willing to do so i'm sure .. however I sometimes do ponder how many people, now gone and now likely never to discover/experience the MMO when it is released, would still be here if they hadn't had their character perm. Would it be more than those few who wouldn't remain if there was an alternative introduced?

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2009, 04:32:02 pm »

Now, I still bear the bitterness of losing my favorite character, along with 2 of Tyra's soul Strands, but I actually like the fact PCs can die permanently due to bad luck (because hell, otherwise it takes away any fear of being dumb, any point to trying to use strategy to survive, and any risk to try something new). Without that CENSORED we would just run up to Fisteron and slap him, laugh, die, and do it again (so to speak). Besides, it's helped me become a better player. (Tyra doesn't die NEARLY as often as Shiff did)

Aside from that though, I hate these threads about things that are the way they are for a reason. and for that reason, I'll leave it to the people who are more proactively trying to kill her/keep her to continue...

ycleption · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2009, 04:34:42 pm »

http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/179562-dts.html
http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/117282-put-soul-mother-rest-maybe-perhaps.html

If we're going to discuss this again, may I just ask people to read through the threads that have already discussed this topic, so we aren't rehashing the same arguments (of which there are many good ones on both sides) over and over and over.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2009, 04:35:17 pm »

And over....

And over....

And over....

SteveMaurer · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:22:00 pm »

Well, this has nothing to do with Layonara, but as a GM, whenever I had player characters die on me that I found sufficiently entertaining, I would bring them back some time later in the campaign.

It wasn't a right. It was a privilege. And when it happened, I usually did it in conjunction with an in-game rebuild that furthered my plot lines in some way. Of course in Runequest this was a lot easier to justify, since the Gods are always so involved in their worshipers dealings anyway.

- - - - -

Translating to Layonara, I wonder if any GM has ever thought of some type of CDQ whose prize is somehow wresting a few Soul Strands back from the Soul Mother? That might be an interesting game to run, not just from the RP side of things, but from the inherent danger of risking your life to get some of it back.

Alatriel · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:32:51 pm »

Look up Athus

Acacea · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:37:01 pm »

The suggestion in the above post is the reason for the Soul Mother's vacation and the one-time return of permed characters from yore. It wasn't a reward that got taken away because of bad attitudes, it was a reprieve granted by a cleric's Epic (Athus, as I see in post preview that Alatriel has mentioned!), and always known to be merely temporary. It actually went on longer than expected.

As far as her returning because of new players (original post), this is an inaccurate assumption. As stated above, it was always to be temporary, and if there was anything considered to be poor RP or exploitation of that fact, it went as much for old players as new ones.

No comment on the death system that hasn't already been hashed and rehashed and so forth. Ycleption links previous discussions.

Thief Of Navarre · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:45:35 pm »

While admittedly when most characters perm they have already past thier Sell By Date and should have retired anyway, but sometimes perma death can be upsetting to new players (Ive been on many servers where its gold or XP loss, soul strands as you call them here or merely deaths untill deletion *normally based on constitution*) and from what Ive experienced in the last dozen years or so of roleplaying is that the players themselves would rather choose whether their character dies or not!

On other servers and even in long running PnP campaigns I have been known to 'retire' characters when they become too powerfull! Not because I was on my final 'soul strand' (I use the term loosely for any kind of perm kill) but because the character was billions of generations old and no longer suited to adventuring... HecK! some of my characters have become NPCs in future campaigns!
Thats the type of thing I like to see rather than a level ten character ceasing to exist and causing the player to take an extended leave of roleplaying, Its really sad when something like that happens (all the more reason to party up with strangers)

Dorganath · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:46:17 pm »

Quote from: Acacea

The suggestion in the above post is the reason for the Soul Mother's vacation and the one-time return of permed characters from yore. It wasn't a reward that got taken away because of bad attitudes, it was a reprieve granted by a cleric's Epic (Athus, as I see in post preview that Alatriel has mentioned!), and always known to be merely temporary. It actually went on longer than expected.

Actually, that's incorrect.

It was supposed to last through the end of the Bloodstone plot finale as a special treat to those who stepped up to end his menace. However, due to the heavy abuse of the lack Soul Strand losses during this time (yes, by a rather active minority, sadly), the Soul Mother returned to her usual ways a couple RL months prior to the actual finale event.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:53:32 pm »

Do remember that the Perma death system favors lower level PCs! It's a d100 vs your current PCs level+1, so you really have the advantage as a new character/player. It's when you keep getting yourself killed over and over that you start to see low levels perm out. Basically, if you don't get the idea that every death is a risk early on, the higher level your PC becomes the bigger chance of the fated loss of a Soul Strand

Also remember that at the first 4 levels your immune to it... which is usually when a new player should be getting the run down from the veterans... should...

Acacea · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:57:07 pm »

Quote from: Dorganath

Actually, that's incorrect.

Weird - I had heard it was a favor for the Blood plot (which actually made it somehow less cool almost, like it was all planned), but while there were of course some requests to end it already, I had also heard that it was originally asked as a shorter or perhaps just more determined length of time.

On the other hand, maybe it was the plot that went slower than expected. Heh. Or just too many mouths not connected to the same brain

Shrowd Umbra · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2009, 04:17:04 am »

I'll agree with you all that the risk of a true death makes our heroes and heroines much more heroic in the end. And there are some characters that become so ridiculously powerful that they're no longer as much fun to play. Since I've gotten to play I've met older players with low level characters started for that reason. I've also visited the Tomb in Weeping Willow, which I think a very nice addition to the world, though perhaps disturbing in the number of vacancies left open.

While it is true you should know by level four roughly how not to die, it can still be a bother finding older players to teach you. In some respects I got lucky my first few levels, and in others I'm still making up for mistakes made through early ignorance with her. And then there's just plain misfortune with lag spikes, one of which nearly killed me today with no forwarning and a relatively simple single griffon.

Rather than just state old suggestions can I put a new one forth? One of the more successful game mechanics I've seen for dealing with death and reanimation was insanity rolls. If your character dies and comes back, they make a save to not go insane, or lessen the severity. We have a whole listing on a series of tables for real psychological disorders ranging from obsession with objects to homicidal behaviors. Granted this works great around a table top with paper and pens but maybe that might be translated to Layonara's scripting? Likely not for the NWN version but something to consider for the MMO? It could be just as simple as the characters suffer a fear effect in combat if they fail a will save.

Eventually through magic and therapy (yes we have some psionicists in our group that specialize in this for very good reasons) Characters recover from the ordeal months of time later. Like real life though, success is not guaranteed. Making deaths prolonged hassles for players rather than perming them I think is a good deterrent, especially if it eats up in game time so they can't just log and come back fine the next day. It lets us keep the work we've invested in the game while still making death something to be hated and cursed and generally feared. And inspires others to quest for a means to save their favorite fighter's shattered mind.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:16:26 am »

I'm pretty sure that the MMO is intended to include some method of reattaching broken Soul Strands, which is something that will likely take time and effort and have no guarantee of success. It's almost the same as what you're suggesting, except it will still be possible to die and no one has to be forced to roleplay insanity.

Chongo · « **Reply #15 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:30:39 am »

The issue I have with reattachments is that you:

1) Can't make it CR based
2) Can't make it GM-intervention based

Neither are fair. If you CR base it, that is, if you make it some wildly dangerous journey into some place where it's possible to reattach a strand.. then who benefits? The dude who could walk up and mechanically win the fight against the soul mother? Now, if you GM base it, then you're talking about the issues of social fairness. If an event is required, then it hinges on manpower/ availability, which is fickle. If it becomes submission based, then you develop the silver tongues who can convince you of basically anything in written form. Ultimately it loses any semblance of 'fair for the entire community' as it becomes a social dynamic - which is never balanced.

I'm still waiting to hear of a viable solution. Obviously it needs to be an in-game mechanic. That is, hands free for staff. But whatever system that is, it can't be leveraged off the same scales all other progression is leveraged off of. That just ends up enabling mechanical power, and beyond that, another unfair social dynamic of who is favored by those mechanically powerful.

I hope someone comes up with something both clever and fair someday. I know I haven't.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #16 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:39:12 am »

For NWN, I think what we have right now is the best we can get. You get 10, with the level-variable based chance of lose with each death (leaving it completely to chance) and the only way to get more/reattach SS is by taking the feat if you become epic. Sure it still limits the benefit to those who can make the jump, but it's a one time thing, and if you can get there and get the extra, good for you.

For the MMO, I think it should be some sort of equation based on a percent chance modified by the number of times you die, with the same base of 10 SS. Ever time you die, the risk increases, either exponentially or linearly. But it could probably also work that the time between deaths works in your favor. If you die less often, the increase in risk is minimized by the lack of stress on the soul. If you're an idiot who dies everyday, well, you get the idea...

Dorganath · « **Reply #17 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:40:51 am »

It's been (roughly) designed, just not released. At one point I almost worked on it for NWN, but never got beyond working out the precise guidelines.

But it wouldn't have been DC-based, nor would it have required GM intervention.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #18 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:53:51 am »

So, more on the equation... (pardon my lack of mathematically forumlaic skill)

Base chance = 1%+([d^2] /8 )%. d = the number of deaths So, you die 4 times, the percent chance of SS lose is 3% You die 10 times, its a 13.5% chance. You die 20 times, it's 51% chance...
Now... take that first part and put it over (divide it by)..
D= # of days since last death ( cap can be placed on the maximum # you can benefit from
So... last time you died was 5 days ago when you die for the 20th time...
1%+([20]^2 /8 )%/5 = 10.2% chance of lose of SS..

So.. ycleption... How does my math look?

The virtue of this I think is that you still have the risk, but benefit from surviving the time inbetween deaths. So yeah, if you die multiple times a day, you have a problem... But if you die once, and then then stick it out even for 2 days, you cut your chances in half again.

EDIT: Fixed the math... but I noticed a downside... This makes dying an exponential disaster... Once you you get passed dying 60 times, you have close to a 100% chance, even after 5 days. you die 28 times, and one of those is right after another, you lose 2 due to the high percent chance...

I think I need to work on my formula

darkstorme · « **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2009, 11:33:35 am »

I think I've made my view on this abundantly clear in other threads, so I'll just say that I'm in favour of the permadeath system and leave it at that.