A Pox on All Our Houses

[darkstorme]

Title aside, this is not a housing post.

This is, instead, a post about pestilence.  Contagion.  In a word, disease.

As it stands, any fumble-fingered-fighter with a roll of bandages can cure what ails virtually anyone who gets bitten by a beetle, mauled by a mummy, or sprayed with whatever putrid saliva those rats in the Broken Halls spit.  Moreover, even if they can't, if people find a nice comfortable fire to sit around for a bit, the vile affliction vanishes with nary a sniffle to mark its passing.

No cleric ever seems to prepare "Remove Disease", and the services of the Healers at the temples go unused.

I say, let loose the scourge!

More generally, my proposal would be to substantially increase the Heal DC required to remove disease, and make sleeping at a safe rest area only have an x% (25%) chance of removing the disease, (and in so doing, set a variable on the PC to prevent them sleeping repeatedly in the hopes of rolling a 75 or better).  

Ideally, the Heal DC would be proportional to the type of disease, but Bioware, in its infinite wisdom, doesn't seem to allow any means of determining the type of disease.  This could be circumvented for a lot of cases by changing NW_S1_ConeDisea, NW_S1_BltDisease, NW_S1_PulsDis and NW_S0_Contagion to set a variable on the PC when it afflicts them with the disease, but it wouldn't work for the on-hit creature weapons that currently deal disease.  That said, a default (but high) DC could be applied to any unidentified diseases.

The advantages to this change:

• Immunity to disease would mean something (since, unlike poisons, diseases have no immediate effect, the difference between someone immune to disease and someone who is not, at the moment, is that the non-immune PC has to expend a healing kit at a cost of ~3 True)
• The cleric spell Remove Disease would be useful
• The healers at temples could perform a useful service.  (Hands up, who's used a healer at a temple?)
• And diseases might have a chance of finishing their incubation period and triggering whatever effects they're supposed to have.

Also on my wishlist though less critical than the above:

• Make the ability damage from disease more persistent than that of poisons, requiring more RL time to pass, rather than a quick stop at a safe rest area.
• On a similar vein, make the effects of a Bestow Curse spell impossible to dispel without Remove Curse or a trip to a temple healer, rather than a simple night's rest.

Thoughts, criticisms, compliments?

[Chazzler]

I like it

[Ravemore]

WoooHooo!!!! Bow before the Necromancer with Bestow Curse and Contagion! Muwahahahahaha! *Evil Laugh*

Please institute this.....

[darkstorme]

Another thought that occurs is that this would also lend more credence to biographies wherein beloved parents are lost to disease - with this change, rule 153 would no longer apply.

[Hellblazer]

I like the Idea

[Nehetsrev]

Are we going to go so far as to make it possible for PC's to die from disease as well, should one of their attributes be lowered to 0 ever, as standard D&D rules dictate. If so, would this also invoke a chance of soul strand loss? Might we also have diseases that have a chance of spreading from PC to PC via proximity? I mean if we're going hard core, after all, why not?
 
 While one part of me says, "Yes! Great idea, make diseases mean something." The other part of me says, "On the other hand, this will make starting out that much harder for new, low-level PC's who are the most commonly afflicted with diseases because of their lower Fortitude saves and lack of Fortitude/Constitution boosting gear available at their level, or within their monetary means."
 
 On the discussion of Curses, those should be harder to get rid of, and I support the idea of needing someone to cast a Remove Curse spell on a PC to remove the curse, be it another PC, or an NPC temple healer.

[darkstorme]

Another wish list item...

If what I've been reading is out-of-date, a few new diseases which, when the incubation period runs its course, kick off a series of "coughing attacks" that cause disease pulses from the afflicted.  (Diseases can run special scripts when their incubation runs its course!)

If what I'm reading is still valid (ie. adding lines to diseases.2da does nothing), then altering a few existing diseases to make them communicable.

[Hellblazer]

Are we going to go so far as to make it possible for PC's to die from disease as well, should one of their attributes be lowered to 0 ever, as standard D&D rules dictate. If so, would this also invoke a chance of soul strand loss? Might we also have diseases that have a chance of spreading from PC to PC via proximity? I mean if we're going hard core, after all, why not?
 
 While one part of me says, "Yes! Great idea, make diseases mean something." The other part of me says, "On the other hand, this will make starting out that much harder for new, low-level PC's who are the most commonly afflicted with diseases because of their lower Fortitude saves and lack of Fortitude/Constitution boosting gear available at their level, or within their monetary means."
 
 On the discussion of Curses, those should be harder to get rid of, and I support the idea of needing someone to cast a Remove Curse spell on a PC to remove the curse, be it another PC, or an NPC temple healer.

The only attribute that would kill the pc if at 0 is constitution if I'm not mistaking.

And the npc healer I think already does it. I don't know if they could be scalable though? I mean a disease that could kill should not be placed in areas that are for low level, or maybe only be activated in all area depending of party level?

[darkstorme]

Are we going to go so far as to make it possible for PC's to die from disease as well, should one of their attributes be lowered to 0 ever, as standard D&D rules dictate. If so, would this also invoke a chance of soul strand loss? Might we also have diseases that have a chance of spreading from PC to PC via proximity? I mean if we're going hard core, after all, why not?
 
 While one part of me says, "Yes! Great idea, make diseases mean something." The other part of me says, "On the other hand, this will make starting out that much harder for new, low-level PC's who are the most commonly afflicted with diseases because of their lower Fortitude saves and lack of Fortitude/Constitution boosting gear available at their level, or within their monetary means."

I would say, "yes", but not "one of their attributes".  I'd stick with NWN rules for attributes - namely, no attribute is allowed to drop below 3.  Mostly, I'd stick with this because modifying the game to allow them to drop to 0 would be difficult out of all proportion to the benefit of this proposed change.

This still means that a CON drop can kill a person (anyone who's had Endurance expire on them knows that), but not death via disease.  (Though having a high-level disease that does that as a post-incubation effect might be neat.)

That being said, of the seventeen built-in Neverwinter diseases, only seven cause CON damage, three as a secondary or tertiary effect.

Regarding proximity, see my above post, posted before reading yours.

As for the low-levels - one of the advantages of getting to higher levels ought to be not being bothered by low-level diseases.  This is not to say, however, that there shouldn't be high-level diseases (with corresponding save DCs)...

[geloooo]

Yes! This will make Contagion, Enervation, Bestow Curse, Energy Drain, etc. far more efficient in RP now.

[Filatus]

On a similar vein, make the effects of a Bestow Curse spell impossible to dispel without Remove Curse or a trip to a temple healer, rather than a simple night's rest.

This is already the case, though if you get cursed on one server, you won't be cursed on the other.

Hardragh got cursed on Central, but I could not cure him at the Temple of Mist in Leringard on West Server.

[Guardian 452]

EQ2 had a plague type disease when I first started playing there. It was generally considered a joke though. If you got near someone who had it your toon would heave (vomit) violently a few times then you had it too. Basically everyone called it "cooties". Clerics could heal you from it but so many people had it 3 seconds later you were diseased again.

I am all for clerics having more duties of actually healing. Lets face it with the assortment of healing potions and bandages we have now a cleric is a buff machine and there to raise someone who fell.

The one idea about having a 25% chance to remove the curse/disease at a safe rest area will just mean people will keep resting till they get it removed so not sure that will work as you visioned it working.  

Overall though I like the idea.

G-452

[darkstorme]

The one idea about having a 25% chance to remove the curse/disease at a safe rest area will just mean people will keep resting till they get it removed so not sure that will work as you visioned it working.

More generally, my proposal would be to substantially increase the Heal DC required to remove disease, and make sleeping at a safe rest area only have an x% (25%) chance of removing the disease, (and in so doing, set a variable on the PC to prevent them sleeping repeatedly in the hopes of rolling a 75 or better).

As above.  More explicitly, I envision a variable set with the current time if a person rests in a safe rest area while diseased.  If the variable is still "current" when they next rest at a safe rest area, no roll would be made to see if they recover.  (The original wording made it sound kind of like I wanted to prevent them from resting, which is not the case.)

[akata]

DM's already have the ability to say diseases are more potent that the mechanical diseases used by various spawns. They can easily give players with an desire to spread plague the rp opportunity to do so, make their spells more useful and give paladins and anyone else the benefit of being immune. Seems like a lot of work that while ic would be nice would cause problems with balance and would raise the risk of death for people not fortunate enough to have a cleric or a cleric to group with.

 From the rp side

Diseases are contagious after all that's how characters get them, so what happens when a pc walks through Hampstead making their way to the temple to get cured while infected with a disease?
If the pc at the same time happens to have caught one of the more nasty diseases (high dc save) then what chance would the normal population have?

Traveling in Layo is pretty fast, ooc that is, Ic characters would spend weeks  or months going from the place they got diseases to a town or even safe resting area, if diseased then how would that possible with say str, con or dex lower enough to make too weak to defend themselves?

Mechanical/Balance

Adds power to the cleric class:

Cleric is already one of the most powerful classes in NwN, there is no need to add more to their template even with the new bandages and healing potions they still have a high use. Some spells will always been more useful than others, just like feats and skills. Trying to change Layo to make all of them useful would be the screw with no end

Higher risk of death when playing:

Anyone that's been through the Great Rift know what a huge disadvantage it is to have one of your stats lowered and how much more deadly the trip becomes, with Layo's death system adding that to more areas is something that should be done with great care.

Moving the balance between caster and non-caster in the wrong direction:

I won't launch into a new debate about balance, except saying it's already in the casters favor don't move it more in that direction

[Xiaobeibi]

Adds power to the cleric class:

Cleric is already one of the most powerful classes in NwN, there is no need to add more to their template even with the new bandages and healing potions they still have a high use. Some spells will always been more useful than others, just like feats and skills. Trying to change Layo to make all of them useful would be the screw with no end

Glad to know we still have a high use, even if you can get your cheap healing elsewhere, I presume you are thinking as a buff monkey?!

Ahhh the joy of still being useful as a buff monkey. Almost as much fun as double checking the payroll at work; that is apart from the obvious lack of salary....

And since I know you, - - -

[Falonthas]

hmm what new toys khuren would have at his fingertips when he catches poachers

[Dorganath]

On the other side of things, how ruined would your (limited) day to play be if you got, for example, diseased by a mummy and didn't have the gold on you to get fixed at a temple, didn't know a cleric and were weakened enough to not be able to effectively adventure to gain the gold to do so?

Wouldn't a simpler/easier thought be to reduce the effectiveness of heal kits against diseases?