Author Topic: Question towards feats (Read 407 times)

Varka · « **on:** January 28, 2007, 05:47:16 am »

Can feats be changed/altered if there is a good good reason? (Pure subjective of course)

Dorganath · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2007, 07:45:08 am »

Are you asking if you can change a feat selection that you have made some time in the past?
If so, the answer is generally "No". Even in cases where a rebuild is approved, which in themselves is very rare, we've generally asked that one keeps the feat and skill selections as close as possible to the original character.
If this is a request that you wish to make, then you would need to go through the Grievance/Dispute/Request process.

Varka · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2007, 10:27:39 am »

I was more considering alteration.
I read about the feats where the requirements are based on receiving 25 in one stat. (yes some were changed in Layo)

Epic dodge, devastating critical, blinding speed and great smite – these are really fine feats.

Then I read “Perfect health” and “Outsider Shape”.
Compared to the first 4 mentioned feats I think that the last two mentioned feats are not so well balanced and therefore not of so big interest for players. (That is what I assume)
I would therefore suggest an alteration for example.

“Perfect health” is based on constitution.
Here you get immune to all diseases and poisons like druids (and half part paladins) achieve during their levels.
My ideas of alteration would be to add or change it into the old D&D style giving +1 regeneration..or something like that.

Before I explain any more I would like to hear if that would be possible?

Weeblie · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2007, 10:59:14 am »

The first feeling I get is that it is indeed very possible (technically).

But haven't really peeked at how exactly the feat-thingies works.

IDii · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2007, 11:01:53 am »

Devastating critical has already been changed for Layo (higher STR requirement than normally)

So yes they can be changed in that way.

Dorganath · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2007, 11:13:43 am »

Such changes are possible, but are subject to balancing for Layonara.
Requirements don't usually get easier unless there's a strong reason or there's something else done to balance it back out.

Varka · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2007, 11:29:40 am »

I this particular case with”Perfect health” there should not be made any easier requirements in my opinion. The alteration is what I see as interesting.

darkstorme · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2007, 10:11:06 pm »

Perfect Health conveys total immunity to all poisons and diseases. In what way is this an underpowered feat? Blinding speed gives a brief haste effect, duplicated by any mage with the spell. Epic Dodge is less powerful against multiple enemies. Great Smite and Devastating Critical are highly dependent on chance (rolling a critical, failing a save, etc.). All of these feats have weaknesses of a sort. Perfect Health conveys (if you'll permit the restatement) total immunity to poisons and diseases. Adding regeneration or any similar trait would totally overpower and unbalance an already impressive feat.

Weeblie · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:05:04 am »

Perfect Health is rendered useless by a very, very commonly used: Negative Energy Protection (or, Undeath's Eternal Foe on higher levels).

Technically, NEP doesn't make you immune to the poison and disease itself, but in the way it's handled in NWN, it makes you immune to the ability decreasing effect of the poison/disease. Silly, isn't it?

Frelinder · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:28:41 am »

An other way to look at it is that the requirements for the feat “Perfect health” is..

25 in constitution and the feat great fortitude (+2 fortitude saves)

This means that a character that fill these requirements probably got an Fortitude around 25 or so.. and since the save against poison and diseases are fort save based it means the character in 99% in fact are already immune..

Maybe some Drows in the UD have an DC higher then 30 fort save to beat on their crippling strike and such, but no one travells in UD without the spell Eternal foe.

Varka · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:20:11 am »

*to Frenlinder* then consider further you have a dwarf. My fortitude save is around 30-35 with standard equipment.

Frelinder · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:34:50 am »

Mmm.. I can't say for sure.. But I think its extremely rare that one have too beat a DC fort save higher then 35. And lets say you ones in a while need to beat a DC 40, you still need to roll a 5 or less to fail the save.

A +1 regenarate/round would in my eyes not be powerfull for a character with 450+ HP. It wan't help in battle, because even the spell regenarate + 6 hp every round is a little bit low in many cases. and when you are not in battle you can rest or heal up with items or kits so then you have no need for the regenarate anyway...

But it would be a cool thing to add to the feat though.. just to make it atleast a little desirable

Edit: "1 round = 6 secons.. so thats 10 HP in 1 minute. One battle last between 30 secons and 2 min, in rare cases 4-5 minutes.. so this charcter will heal about 20 HP during the battle. That will make none difference whatsoever in my opinion. Perhaps if the regenarate was + 3 every round.. then it would help atleast a little."

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2007, 03:01:54 am »

The reason +1 Regen is so helpful is because you wouldn't have to rest or heal as often between combat. Only take twenty points of damage in a fight? Why waste bandages, when your wounds knit themselves?

Also, you'd NEVER have to worry about dieing when you got knocked to 0 to -9.

That said, it isn't really that helpful while you're in most fights, especially at that level.

Frelinder · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2007, 03:37:49 am »

Mm.. well to me an Epic feat should do more then save a few golds that the bandages costs. And lets say you loose 100 HP in a fight.. then it takes 10 minutes to get it back.. So if Varka who has about 475 in HP fights.. lose 200 HP.. he are going to stand at a safe area for 20 minutes of gametime for getting to full HP..

Hmmm.. In game: *Boon to Varka after a fight*

-Boon: Comon Varka, lets get moving..
-Varka: Nay.. me needs be standing here before fighting again and focuse on me healing for a day..
-Boon: Right.. *sighs and sits down* // afk for 20 min..

-After a weak (and thats real life time.. hehe.. ) Boon and Varka finally make it back to Fort Miritix after have been To the Salt lake and backk again..

Not so effective in game.. The only thing I'll buy is the healing itself when get knocked down to 0 to -9.. when you are lvl 1-10 character that happens alot. But then again its not very often that happens to a 20+ character.. atleast not from my own experience..

IDii · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2007, 04:28:24 am »

There's quite a few "useless" flavor feats in this game.

Like epic reputation... +4 to some social skill checks while you already probably have huge bonuses in them. But having the feat "Epic Reputation" is kinda cool huh?
Same thing with Perfect Health. The requirements already mean you're probably immune to anything it can actually protect you from. But hey it's cool to have that feat... At least it means you won't ever suffer from that nasty cough or cold!
Tons more of them of course, not even going to start with something like epic spell focus: abjuration... heh.

The best feats and especially epic feats are quite class/build dependant. You can only get epic DR if you have a high con, so you're probably a barbarian or a DD with those from class feats already.
Epic dodge's really just for rogue types. Just like great smiting is for paladins, epic spells for casters, the special rages for barbarians, etc.

Not everything has to be useful. Of course it makes it more interesting to choose between feats when they are that way.

Frelinder · « **Reply #15 on:** January 29, 2007, 05:14:44 am »

I agree IDii. Alot of the feats are a total waste, and only adds a bit flavor to the RP and coolfactor.

And what the thread is about i belive is if its possible to do something about it.. would it be good for the players and the world? I think if more of the feats actually made a different and was desireable it would defently be more fun to lvl up when the Epic feat list appears in fron of you

For some classes and builds there are realy nice epic feats in the end of the road to take.. and for some there are not. can the feats get a little more balanced or will they stay the same?

Adding +1 regenarate to the "perfect health feat" is not something that would make the feat to powerfull. (this not for the monks ofcourse that get it for free, just the ones that takes the epic feat from the list) But it would make the feat a little more desirable for characters to pick.

I belive that now when Layo will have many new epic characters in the world due to the new Xp and lvl system it could perhaps be worth to have a look at the epic feats and see if something should be done.... or not?..

Another problem that might come then is that if feats will change.. people will probably complain over that if they had new that the feat would be this good(after the change) they would have getting the requirements to get it.. but now they can't and thats unfair... and so forth..

*shrugs*

Weeblie · « **Reply #16 on:** January 29, 2007, 06:01:14 am »

If I'm not completely incorrect, the regeneration items in game are among the highest priced ones, even beyond the price of emeralds. That can't be explained if regeneration truly is worthless. Besides, if it was that... Then, it would only be a big waste of time making Perfect Health give that bonus, as no one will pick it anyway.

regeneration actually gives the character a virtual "extra 30 HP" or something like that. If your PC only has lost 30-ish HP out of 400 during a battle, I believe very few people will bother to heal you and/or that you will bother to heal yourself. I mean... heh... the neon sign over your head isn't even showing "Barely Injured". Granted that it's easy to nullify this particular effect by simply not being lazy... but... umm... I think most people are following the lazy route.

What I would love to see (which doesn't seem to be really possible) is to make NEP not giving immunity to poison/disease ability decreasing! A lot of feats/items would suddenly become much more interesting!

Frelinder · « **Reply #17 on:** January 29, 2007, 06:12:52 am »

The main thing with the feat "Perfect Health" is as it is now is that the requirements in its self alredy in reality makes the character immune to desises and poisions.. So then the feat in fact adds nothing!!

The examples on feats that IDii gaved that are more or less useless.. atleast they add something.

With the + 1 regenerate atleast it would add something.. but in my opinion not much..

I don't know what regenerating items there are to get in game.. and how much the give + every round.. But if its just +1 regenarating items I personally would save that items slot for something that actually helps in battle

And why people in game ranking regenarating item high... Dunno.. I guessing because its cool to have. I wouldn't mind having one

And changing the NEP spell.. well not something that i would wote for but it could be intresting. alot of places would be more difficoult to handle..

Dorganath · « **Reply #18 on:** January 29, 2007, 06:26:16 am »

In-game, there is an item one can get (generally from loot drops) that operates much like an enhancement/resistance in that it adds a +1 Regeneration to any equipable item, These things are pretty rare, as are dedicated items with +1 Regeneration on them. Such items generally have other benefits to them, so there's not really a problem with losing beneficial equipment slots.
Even if there were, I kind of disagree with the mindset that suggests that somehow everything that is equipped must somehow benefit combat.
As has been mentioned, +1 Regeneration should not be discounted or underestimated. It can completely prevent a person from bleeding to death ( in the -9 to -1 HP range), provided they do not take any additional damage in the interval. While it may not be immediately beneficial during combat, especially at levels where someone can actually use regenerative items, it does reduce or even eliminate the need for healing potions, spells and devices once combat is over. If one is patient enough, it can also negate the HP hit that's taken when resting.
I'm sure we could debate that all day long, however. It's unfortunately kind of off the initial topic, so let's steer the discussion back to the original request.

Frelinder · « **Reply #19 on:** January 29, 2007, 06:46:26 am »

Well that explains why the regenerate items is so valuable... Can't wait untill i find one of those regenarating rods.. hehe