Couple more ideas, Lockout timer & teleport

[Shiokara]

Just to play Devil's advocate:

A casual player that's high enough to get access to that high-level CNR and content is going to have that money. And said cost of xp/money would be covered by the cost of the trip. If someone gets one emerald we'll say that's 50k. Even if the product cost 20k, that's still 30k profit.

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For the "wrap-up" teleporter: This idea is worth considering just because DMs already do this when time is of the essence. On completion of the objective they'll say, "You defeat the X baddies, get Z item, and find your way back to Y without a problem."

On the downside this doesn't help those gamers who have emergencies before you reach the end.

[Pibemanden]

Another solution might be making the portal-at-the-end-of-dungeon cost a CNR resource for each player entering. Example; make a portal around emerald/mithril deposits that require one raw gem or 2 nuggets of mithril per player to enter. That way you make it more accessible for players with less time, while still making it worth for players to take the full trip.

[Hellblazer]

Another solution might be making the portal-at-the-end-of-dungeon cost a CNR resource for each player entering. Example; make a portal around emerald/mithril deposits that require one raw gem or 2 nuggets of mithril per player to enter. That way you make it more accessible for players with less time, while still making it worth for players to take the full trip.

I like that but the problem is that the cnr are a random number. If you have a big enough party to get there safely and you mine emeralds, you often end up with only one or two emeralds.

So although I like that idea, it could make the trip (depending of the items asked) to be of an extreme cost to the players.

[Kenderfriend]

I like that but the problem is that the cnr are a random number. If you have a big enough party to get there safely and you mine emeralds, you often end up with only one or two emeralds.

So although I like that idea, it could make the trip (depending of the items asked) to be of an extreme cost to the players.

Thats what I was just thinking, though Pibe has a good idea going there (I often run out of time when adventuring in a group and have RL yelling at me while I try to get out), I couldn't help imagining scenarios like:

"Emerald digger: Woohoo, I got two emeralds, that means I got one to get outta here and one for keeps!
Rest of party: Hey what about us...?
Emerald digger: *fooshes out of the dungeon while the party gets killed*"

[Pibemanden]

Well the thing is that you could potentially mine the deposits twice, which reduces the chance of walking away with only two emeralds. Secondly the portal would be somewhere in between mithril and emeralds so it would be favourable to go for both making it even more unlikely that you can't pay for everyone.
And I really believe that the griefing rules that the server currently employs as well as the good nature of the players here would prevent the emerald foosh. Keep in mind that this suggestion is only for the nwn version.
One big disadvantage though is that the implementation heavily favours wizards since they can foosh without a price unless a system is made so that it is impossible to do so on the runs which have a portal included.

[Gulnyr]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this "teleporting after mining is exploiting" thing.  So If I storm a castle to kill the king and I know there are 60 employed guards within the castle, I am expected to kill 60 guards, kill the king, and then upon leaving the throne room kill those same 60 guards again who have for some reason risen from the dead without a cleric present?  How about if I spent too much time using the chamberpot, am I to expect the decapitated king to stand back up, screw his head back on atop his neck-hole, and fight me again?  Because with the NWN respawn timer system, that's exactly what happens.  Putting a one-way transition at he end of the dungeon which takes you back out to the dungeon entrance is something that's been done sine Legend of Zelda.  Link holds up the triforce segment, he cheers, the screen fades to black and he walks out the dungeon entrance.  The only real reason to play through the same dungeon again is if it's somehow different on the way up.   If it's the same, then killing them twice is considered camping, no?

I agree with your examples, but whether or not a free pass home is sensible or not depends a lot on the scale of the trip.  The Deep is not a castle or a puny little dungeon.  It's enormous, with large distances between transitions in some cases just like on the surface.  While, in a fully realistic way, no one should expect every single group of enemies to be back on the return trip, much of the territory would be reoccupied by someone or something in the weeks or months the trip would actually take the miners.  There is never a reason, in my opinion, to think you are safe in the Deep.

[willhoff]

You could have two different types of teleportation devices:

1) A gem of rememberence that will take you to a point of recal.  Each character gets this gem as a item in their inventory upon creation.  They get to use it at no cost, once per server reset.  (good for casual gamers and lower characters with little funds and can be used for emergencies)

2)  A tome of rememberance that you can purchase for say 10-20k at an arcanist store as mentioned below.  It has one charge.  Also takes you to a point of recal.  Have a limit of how many you can buy maybe, and dont make them transferable.

This approach hopefully allows those with no money a way to still go out and adventure or have a means of leaving in case of emergency.  The second option allows those who like to adventure, have money but not time, a means to adventure.

[Dorganath]

Just to play Devil's advocate:

A casual player that's high enough to get access to that high-level CNR and content is going to have that money. And said cost of xp/money would be covered by the cost of the trip. If someone gets one emerald we'll say that's 50k. Even if the product cost 20k, that's still 30k profit.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

There are some casual players with high-level characters who have never held more than 50K at one time, and probably a non-trivial amount who have never seen more than 100K.

Casual players are on average much more "poor" (and I use the term loosely, as most PCs have more money than entire towns) than those with more time to spend, and they recoup any such costs much slower.

Trust me on this one...my 32nd level character has never had more than 40-45K in his bank account ever, and I know I'm not alone...mostly because I have access to the bank account data in the database.

[Guardian 452]

I like the idea of an item everyone gets, and has one use per reset.

How about another item say everyone has that could be used for RL emergency evac... and if abused taken away?  Meh... probably to much work for the team.

Ok... how about an item added to the WL items that does this Emergenvy Evac for RL reasons.... I mean if we trust the WL's to give out RP XP, and ban players, and all the other things WL's can do. Why not that?

I realise that is a limited field of players, just the WL's.... but its a start? And remember I proposed that the WL one be a RL issue evac... not a... ugh were tired and dont want to fight our way back out now.



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[Guardian 452]

A somewhat side point I wanted to make. I havnt sat down and payed attention to the exact amout of XP Enzo gets from a Mithril / Emerald run. But at a guess its 100k on the way in.... 100k on the way out.

Using an item that sends me home when we are done mining... I am missing out on 100k of EXP.... or any toon can look at it as loosing half the XP they could have gained had they hacked their way back out as we do now.

I dont know that counts for anything, but it seems a sacrafice to me.

G-452


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[ycleption]

Just as an aside, there are ways to accomplish this kind of thing on a more limited basis with DM involvement... Milty has run a number of one hour at a time expeditions, where every week the characters are placed back where they logged off the previous week, which were a lot of fun for those players who rarely have large blocks of time. Other times, I've had DM intervention to "create a portal" or use other means for hasty exits from long trips when RL reared its head - I can see that it could be exploitative if done repeatedly, but one could certainly arrange for that kind of thing beforehand.

I'm not really commenting either way on the ideas being thrown out, just saying that there are ways that the objectives can in some small part be reached without creating mechanical systems for it.

[jrizz]

Buying something that can teleport a PC to a location seem to be the best idea yet. The issues with it are cost and usage. I would say that the cost should be mild, 10k to 20k. Usage can be tracked just like the tomes are. Tracking really should not be that much of a burden as a good percentage of the PCs are already wizards and the overall community of active players is really not that high. Put the same usage rules/guidelines around them as tomes.

As one of the "casual" gamers. I can say that 10k to 20k is not outrageous but I would be very careful in my use of them due to cost. Having the option would be just great.

[Shiokara]

Buying something that can teleport a PC to a location seem to be the best idea yet. The issues with it are cost and usage. I would say that the cost should be mild, 10k to 20k. Usage can be tracked just like the tomes are. Tracking really should not be that much of a burden as a good percentage of the PCs are already wizards and the overall community of active players is really not that high. Put the same usage rules/guidelines around them as tomes.

As one of the "casual" gamers. I can say that 10k to 20k is not outrageous but I would be very careful in my use of them due to cost. Having the option would be just great.

The ludicrous prices I mentioned shouldn't be over 20k in my opinion. Just goes to show what "mild" is for some is other people's "ludicrous".

I, personally, would rarely (if ever) use an item that cost that much.

[davidhoff]

Maybe the "tome" could be something all players get at start up; it has 10 charges; can only be used once per server reset; after the 10th charge it crumbles to dust and you have to buy a new one at the merchant for $20k; it would portal you to a void and you could not play that character for 3 RL hours.

[Gulnyr]

Using an item that sends me home when we are done mining... I am missing out on 100k of EXP.... or any toon can look at it as loosing half the XP they could have gained had they hacked their way back out as we do now.

I dont know that counts for anything, but it seems a sacrafice to me.

And making up for that "loss" of XP by avoiding how many chances to lose a soul strand?  Trading a chance at extra XP for a guarantee of no strand loss seems like a serious boon rather than a sacrifice.

Even for the most casual player, soul strands are more precious than XP.  I hate to admit it, but I'd probably jump on that gravy train nine time out of ten.  I can get XP anywhere, but soul strands are limited.  And honestly, after you hit level 20, 100k XP is like one quest session.  That's not really a lot.

[Guardian 452]

I dont know the exact numbers, but clearly everyone will sacrafice half of what they  could get by choosing to teleport.. And unless you do something stupid ( or have some estra spice added) you have no more chance of death than you did on the way down.

Also the same people who might benefit most from the teleport probably cant devote blocks of time to quests either.  *shrug*


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[Shiokara]

To piggy back on Gulnyr's argument, though. You're also sacrificing XP to gain Real Life time. The equation between time spent in-game (potentially gaining xp) vs. RL time will always balance out at 0 in my eyes.

[Hellblazer]

Well the thing is that you could potentially mine the deposits twice, which reduces the chance of walking away with only two emeralds.

To give you an example. On one on the trips where Ty had a good run at mining ( she has very good gem mining hands) We went for three runs at the emerald deposit and come out with 26 emeralds. Being we were 12.. well that left 2 each, and one for roll that she won.

Most of the time that i have been there, you barely get 1 even in a decent party size like 8 or 9 members. If you're lucky maybe 2 a run, for each members of the party.

[Hellblazer]

Just as an aside, there are ways to accomplish this kind of thing on a more limited basis with DM involvement... Milty has run a number of one hour at a time expeditions, where every week the characters are placed back where they logged off the previous week, which were a lot of fun for those players who rarely have large blocks of time. Other times, I've had DM intervention to "create a portal" or use other means for hasty exits from long trips when RL reared its head - I can see that it could be exploitative if done repeatedly, but one could certainly arrange for that kind of thing beforehand.

I'm not really commenting either way on the ideas being thrown out, just saying that there are ways that the objectives can in some small part be reached without creating mechanical systems for it.

That involves a GM, which isn't bad, but we are talking of the times where gms are not available or present.

[orth]

Just a comment on the length of time it takes to get down in The Deep.

A trip for mithril or emeralds doesn't need to take 5-6 hours.  A trip for mithril and emeralds that involves encircling the areas so as to reap the rewards of both of the emerald and mithril spawns three times and maybe some titanium on the way there and back takes 5 to 6 hours.  Server logs show each cycle to go back to the deposit locations takes 40 minutes.  

If you want to be more conscientious of your other party members schedules then don't plan such massive hauls?  Plan trips for just one or the other and one mining run.  This can be accomplished in less than 3 hours.

The trips there or back also do not need to take as much time if the parties are more properly prepared to provide the essential defences for longer periods of time instead of resting every twenty minutes when their mega spells are spent.  Have the clerics memorize more foes, the mages/clerics memorize more true sights, don't blow all your spells when you don't necessarily need to etc.

If you want to shave off the one hour that it takes for returning to the surface with a teleport system there's an easier way; don't loop the deposits three times and don't venture for both goods at a time.

If I can have a "Get off my lawn!" moment, there was a time when 8 people would delve for 4 hours and get maybe just 3 emeralds, not 20+ emeralds and 80+ nuggets of mithril.

Lastly if you have to bail for any sorts of emergencies, do so, then when you return post on the forums or inquire on IRC for a GM to give you a friendly teleport based upon the circumstances.  A simple "Hi I had to go take care of my boy and needed to bail on my party unexpectedly in the middle of The Deep, can someone help me rejoin them/return me to the surface"