Gold as well as EXP

[NEXUS7]

After reading throw the post I still feel that the longer you play the more you get, and that Good RP in the day to day of LAyo is just expected but not rewarded.
Again for playes like my self that have limited time and login infrqwanty layo seem to only have very very very slow PC dveliment after 7th level.
If you have a PC that dos not kill your only root then is crafts and if you dont have the time for Craft Graind then your stuck playing the same level and whaching others pass you by.

Mille, Pugly and Max have it that Level wall, and my RL lets me only play the times I can.
Like so meny others this is Killing Layo for me, I feel im a good player and have done some good RP
in the times Ive been on Layo.

Its such a shame that the one boot fits all rule has to be so rigedly held to.
When it comes to Loot, gold and Exp.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I completely understand where you're coming from.  Cole has been passed by his peers over and over again, and he's a killer.  And I'm an avid player these days, unlike when I started.  

You are absolutely correct.  The longer you play the more you get.  That's the "cold, hard truth."  And you want to know why?  It's the only remotely objective, unbiased way to assess progression.  Even quest experience is based on the time length of the quest.  If the DM's were to hand out significant amounts of XP (10k+) for good RP, it would immediately come down to who decideds what good RP is?  And the reality is, that the measure of good RP is entirely subjective.  Just because DM so-and-so thinks it was good RP doesn't mean everyone else does, and vice-versa.

Sure, the DM's can toss around some little 500-1000 XP "kudos" now and then to show they appreciate what you're doing, but as soon as they hit someone RPing their heart out in Hlint with a 15k "pat on the back, you're a great role player," people are going to say, "hey, I did the same thing yesterday and I didn't get 15k exp."

It's just not feasable without jealousy and contention ruining everything.  There are constant debates on what good RP is or isn't already.  The DM team here tries to remain open to all forms so long as it remains family friendly and is not abusive to other players.  And this is because, while they are the law of the world, they are not the law of RP.  There are some general standards that define RP, don't get me wrong, but RP is still a very subjective thing.

So, that leaves us to find something more objective to define advancement.  And that thing is Time.  If player A puts in ten hours of game time, and person B puts in ten hours of game time, it's easily possible for them to come out with approximately the same gains.  Not saying that they will come out equally, but that there is an equal opportunity for that to be the case.  If rewards were left to DM "gifts" for good RP, there would be no guarantee that player A and player B, after putting in the same effort, will come out with equal advancement.

In order to maintain fairness (and I know it doesn't seem fair, since not everyone has the time to put into it), this is the way it has to be.

[Leanthar]

Well stated Milton, you are right on with the facts there.

[SuperMunch]

*claps at Milton's reply*

Well said sir!

I see good roleplaying as prestige points (I call them Phantasmal Cookies/PC in my PnP games) - it's not a part of game mechanics but it's cruicial for character-to-character and (player-to-player in a way) interaction.  It fleshes out your character and makes him a part of the world (good RP, high PC) or just one in the crowd (bad RP, low PC).  It's independent of character level so XP rewards for it truly are optional.

[vgn]

Ok, so the problem I hear from you is:
1. You don't play often or long.
2. When you do play you try to get on quests because that's where the xp is at so you can advance.
3. You think you should get gold too because your style of play doesn't lend itself to easy riches.

To tackle these:
1. Unfortunately some people play a lot and some people can only play some. We try to build the world so it is comfortable for an average level. If you are below average in your play time though you have to accept that level advancement as well as wealth generation is just going to be lower and depending on your play time it might be quite a bit lower. It's a trade off and you can't have everything.

2. You are definitely using your play time wisely with this approach if advancement is what you are aiming for. This isn't necessarily the best way to build wealth though so since your time is limited you'll probably have to choose whether you want more xp (levels) or more gold. Those with more time have the luxury of obtaining both.

3. I think there is a flaw in this argument as you likely just need to be more creative. If gold, or more likely the things you can buy with gold, are your desire, even if you don't bash things there are ways to aquire gold. Some of these are based purely on RP. I'll toss out some examples based on my own characters and perhaps one or two other well known folks:
A. Amra Tanvia (Brownie Monk) - Amra doesn't want for much. She is not rich, but she has most items people of her level could want. She doesn't run out and hunt and grind through monsters. She mostly just hangs around towns offering to help people. Sometimes helping earns her a share of gold if it involves an adventure. Sometimes helping solidifies a friendship or earns a gift. She has been given gold and items for all of the help she offers.
B. Amelia Sunray (Human Cleric) - Amelia is an NPC now, but while she was played she rarely wanted for anything but also was not rich. Amelia managed to find a boyfriend who treated her well. He was not rich either, but he did have means, power, and connections and there were always boat tickets available to her, meals to be shared, and gifts were exchanged at times.
C. Some of my other characters did earn there gold/items through more conventional means. Either creatures or crafting. It all depends on the character's personality and abilities.
D. Rhizome (Elf Druid) - Rhizome is an epic character who is not rich by gold standards although he has collected some nice things in his travels. He gained what gold and items he needed over a long RL time and through PC interaction in game making friends and trading goods and services.
E. Acacea (Halfling Rogue/Bard) - Acacea has already chimed in and I think either she wasn't clear in what she was saying (I don't personally think so) or you were not understanding her point. She doesn't have a lot of gold and she doesn't run around bashing things for the most part. Yet she has no trouble getting gold or items. Why is this? It's because as she stated she spends a vast majority of her time RP'ing, making friends, etc. There are few on the server who wouldn't give Acacea a slice of pie or a boat ticket if she was in need. I'm sure she has earned larger gifts or what have you by either providing entertainment or earning solid friendship.

Now, everything I have just said could be considered muling by some so I wanted to take a moment and point out the clear difference. Muling is against the rules on this server but muling is the act of getting something for nothing from a more wealthy/powerful character. In the cases above something has been exchanged. Whether it be long sessions of RP based friendship, entertainment provided, or services traded. What is not acceptable by any means is logging on with a relatively new character and then in a very OOC fasion "meeting" a character run by a RL friend and then becoming instant friends and loaded up with gold, items, and several xp runs.

There are many ways to earn items and gold through pure RP or mostly RP based settings. You just need to fit your character and be creative.

[Acacea]

I'd also like to add that we're talking about limited play time, split up between several characters. Having more than one is ALWAYS going to mean not having as much attention devoted to each, but having the variety. Coming on and saying it isn't fair that you can play a few hours in a week and the few hours are split up between several characters and why can't you just be given lots of XP and loot to make up for it, does not make any sense whatsoever to me.

[FlameStrike]

I'm not against item handing out at the end of quests, as long as it fits with what the quest was all about, and also it should be rolled for using your dicebag, making it fair for everyone.

 Item rewards are a nice incentive aswell for people to go on quests besides the obvious point, which is RP.
 
 Of course, the rewards wouldn't obviously have to be a Greatsword +5 or anything... just something useful and/or for flavor, a souvenir like someone mentioned above.
 
 And since GM's now have the ability to rename items, the rewards could really be something special, or made special simply by having their names changed. I believe people wouldn't ever forget that renamed item they earned on a certain quest, whenever they are browsing through their inventory and see said item.

 
 
 

[NEXUS7]

Acacea, Humm it dos sound like Im saying that but has been poined out the true is

Long pay time = RP, Levels, Gold, stuff

Short play time = RP and fustraion

The arguments gave for this are sound and fair as it saves DM's debating why RP
should be reworded out side of Quests with all the PCs ingame.

But your point is to say Im wrong for thinking as I do that Layo is a lesser place for having rules which
fix the system and not the play.

But I am just one new player and I will bow to thows DMS and players who have been part of Layo much longer
than my self.

As for having more than 1 PC yes I do but Spugly and Max rearly see the light of day now, Mille is my main
PC and shes the one who hides and dos not fight.

I think what im saying is
Levels go up by a facter of X2 in EXP so 7th to 8th is some thing like 160,000 to 320,000
But the play time needed for that also gos up by a facter of X2
1 to 7 can be done in 64 hours of game play ( I know it can be done in a week but how many hours)
8 the is 128 hours
9 256 hours

If you only play 10 hours a week thats 25 weeks for level 9 (cut that down with quests say)
15 weeks RL

10 = 30 weeks
11 = 1 year 6 weeks
12 = 2 years 16 weeks

Well thats what I feel.

[Weeblie]

Hm... Number crunching... right...

Well, here's the XP table: http://nwn.layonara.com/ExperienceTable

You'll notice that XP stops to double at level 10.

And, I think that one get around 10000 XP/quest-hour, so getting 320 000 XP is actually only 32 hours...

[Dorganath]

To add to what Weeblie stated, the XP given per hour of questing depends on your character's level and it increases as the XP needed for each level increases. For some levels it's 10K/hour, for some it's less, for some it's more. Basically it's balanced out such that approximately the same amount of quest time is needed to level regardless of your character level.
  My honest suggestion is that you not worry about those little numbers on your character sheet. Play your character the way you want. You'll be happier for it.
  But to reiterate, no, we won't just be handing out gold on quests as a reward. Sorry. It will not happen unless the quest involves some sort of payment.

[xXDenizeNXx]

Geez guys, The poor guys is just venting his frustration eh. I agree with him that unless your some kind of 'Saint' then that is why you took up the adventuring life for fame, fortune, power, duty, honor, to simply show off or whatever. But the boy who came down off the ole farm didn't come down to do some more feeding the chickens and cows and to grow more dang corn now did he? You talk of RP and to play your charchter the way you want but what if you want your charachter to be a comfort loving coin counter?

But to Nexus having said this above mate also keep in mind that alot of your NPC's in other settings throughout the DnD world spend a whole half a lifetime adventuring before retiring in there 40's with enough to buy a tavern or a farm somehwere and some of them are only like level 5! So if you look at Layo then at least it is above Par so to speak in it's rewards and yes housing costs alot etc but you simply must do this IMO or everyone would own a Tavern or Shop etc. And even some of those that own housing have grouped together and pooled resources to buy it!

OK onto some helpful advice for the non combat orientated with no jingle in there pouches, CNR matierials are your friends. Find out what people want and supply it to them, sometimes tedious, oft times dangerous but it can give you a steady income. Join large groups and offer to loot for them, alot of folks are too busy casting spells, fighting etc to loot, if you can stay behind the group and grab the loot for them you'd be surprised how popular this will make you. Rewards often aren't huge depending on the Party size but usually is more fun then waiting for chickens to lay an egg *winks* also as a secondary bonus you recieve more xp being a designated 'looter'. Ok to do a rough numbers crunch say you went to the Haven mines on a trip to gether resources with a group of say 10 to round out figures, say you gathered 3000 gold once again totally to round out figures for the purposes of this example, thats 300 gold each not much i know, but say you avergaed 300 gold per trip and managed out of your 10 hrs to do two trips a week and also find time to gather a box of aloe in that week and all of a sudden your looking at 3000 gold a week (if you look on the trade forums PC's are ofering 2500 per box of aloe in some cases) in ten weeks that 30k by the end of the year thats enough to buy a house! Of course expenses come out of that as well ... but have I sort of made a point?

Chin up mate, you ask anyone around over 10th level and they'll tell you that the funk of 7th-10th level is frustrating but worth it if you stick with it. The key to Layo is the group mate, get into large parties and go explore/gather resources etc even if you dont care about crafting yourself people will always need more coal, topaz, platinum, iron etc etc find them and party with them. RP is more then sitting under a tree trying to pick up chicks or talking about the weather.(although this can be fun too so no offence to anyone)
Peace
Den

[Varnart]

To add to the discussion, I'll show that you're not alone. I started playing my character Taislin in July last year. And, I'm level 9. Yep. Everyone has passed Taislin. Daeron started roughly at the same time and is level 15. I still remember the time I was the same level as Acacea. This is because of numerous things: first, I have a lot of ideas for characters, and I don't play enough PnP to test them all, so I make a LOT of characters. My computer isn't the best, too, so I experience a LOT of downtime, which is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring. I have never, at any time had more than 8000 gold in the bank, and that was when I was given 7000 to make a tournament. The best way to make money is to find something that no one does, and do it. So I've found when I created Taislin's Services*insert shameless publicity here*. So, cheer up. you've even got it better than I do.

[NEXUS7]

I hear you all and yes its fustrion comming out, a lot of what has been said ill take on bord and Weeblie sorry your right the XP is not has I said.
I have had a few days off and feel better for it, I think spedding my time RPs is much much better than and Craft/gold/Ep grind which means I live not look at the numbers on my PC but its the Feats I like so much.

Thanks fro all your feed back and for putting up with my rant.

[PsychicToaster]

I like DM quests for what they are.

There just aren't enough of them before level 10-15.  

Are we supposed to just sign up and tag along while grossly out of level range?  Is that what some of these people are doing and I just missed the boat on this one?

[darkstorme]

@Nexus - bear in mind, in traditional paper-and-dice D&D, it could conceivably take YEARS to work a level-1 character up to 10 or higher.  A good campaign could take as much as 10-12 weeks, for just one or two levels, in terms of XP.  NWN, like any computer game, needs faster rewards, so the OC had more potions than an alchemist could produce in years, epic magical items lying around, and gold sitting in trashcans.

Also, from the sounds of it, Mille is a rogue - and thanks to the easily-accountable kill=XP system, Rogues get the short end of the stick in NWN.  Basically, we get one good attack, if we're on our own.  Rogues function best in a group, so that's the way to go.  Scouting (though the speed reduction due to Stealth is annoying), doing that extra bit of damage in melee and providing ranged support is the Rogue's stock-in-trade.  RP xp and quest XP are the best ways to level as a Rogue - or as any character, but the Rogue in particular.

As for gifting items and gold, this again is the NWN-trained mind talking.  NWN gives out (by DnD standards) obscene amounts of gold.  Bear in mind, most farmers earn in the vicinity of one gp a WEEK, so it's not reasonable to expect 5000 gp just for finishing a quest.  Heck, the scripted quests in Hlint pay more than one would ever think reasonable - it's a gimme to help characters advance.

Just my two coppers.