Haven Mines - Should resting be allowed now?

[aragwen]

Well to firstly answer the question of the thread. No, I dont think resting should be allowed in Haven.




Now slightly off topic and getting something off my chest (so stop reading if you dont like rants) and please note this is my personal opinion.

I think resting is way abused in the world and I would love to see no free resting everywhere. I would much more prefered only resting allowed in predefined places. Things to many times tend to go like this: one battle (two if you lucky), rest, buff, two battles, rest, buff. And it repeats.

It is amazing to see your characters get pushed when they not allowed to rest. Use your skills, learn to stretch spells. Use magic wisely, I mean it is something that is supposed to be rare (low magic world). How many times have your character stepped away from battle with maybe one cantrip left?
We are to used to magic in abundance, cause we know that we can rest the moment the battle is over (or as soon as 10 minutes has passed). How many times did you just finish a battle and then waited your rest counter out just because you want to rest before you hit the next battle?

As stated earlier, why should everyone in the party be buffed. If you had less spells to work with then perhaps the true master of magic will be shown.

Take a moment next time before you rest and think about it.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I'm not really on one side or the other, so I'm just gonna throw in my 2 jinks.

All of my PCs are combat types:  A Fighter, a Ranger, a Monk, and a Rogue.  Resting after every battle doesnt do anything for them except heal them a little bit.  So If there is never a healing/resting spot in Haven, fine by me, like I said I am not a magic type.

On the other hand, I do like to know that if I'm going into the mines with some mages/sorcerers/clerics/whathaveyou that they will have magic, even if its just healing magic, the entire time we are in those mines.  Most groups I go with save the magic until we reach the bottom, then use the magic on the way back up, but that was also before V3, and I haven't been inside since.

So if there is never a safe-rest area in Haven, fine, but if the Team decides to add one, I won't complain either.

[ycleption]

Given the story, of ghosts preventing people from SLEEPING, elves should still be able to rest in Haven, right? right? Um, why is everybody glaring at me?
*runs away into a corner and hides*

[Dorganath]

Well elves still need to meditate or whatever it is they do.  It's not "sleep" as such, but it's probably quite difficult to focus with all that ghostly unrest.

So um...no.

[Polak76]

In my experience when adjustments are made to make things tougher, people/characters seem to find a new way to deal with them.  In about six months time this thread will be long forgotten and GM's might even think about raising the bar further.  Either way I rekon we leave it as it is.

Secondly, even though west is a starting server, I still think it should contain challenges for higher level chars, just as CEntral should cater to lower level's..etc.  For example, West might be 50% for lvls 1-10, 35%11-15 and 15% 16-20.  Central could be 10% 5-10, 50% 11-15 & 40% 15-20...and so on for East.  I'd like to see people spread out as much as possible, rather than lagging one server in general.

Lastly I love change.  I had used to have notes on where things where, where i could find spotted mushrooms, where the best gold mines are.  It was exciting locating these new areas, and with these changes i get to do it all over again.  Thumbs up to all the work you guys did.  I only wish i had more spare time to enjoy it.

[Hellblazer]

Why do people feel like they have to hit some high level in crafting at low character levels?...and then come up with all sorts of reasons why they "should" be able to get this or that CNR because they can hit X level in Y craft. *shrugs*

Dorg it's not a matter of aboslutly having to get the highst. It's just something that happens.  You will notice that every craft ( i think ) have a use in game, but what is realy being used? THe mid to high rate things. Truly if you take a look just at weapons, it cost just slightly less to produce a copper sword than by one. But when you look in game, beside the truly new player that are not yet at level 8 without enchantment does it realy have a use.. no So what do you do when you want to make a small income from the crafting? You have to get better.

There is no use in keeping doing a gem or metal that gives you nothing, unless you have to make something out of it for something else, or produce an item that you then sell. So you push to get something back. The way things are set up, you go through the first steps very quickly, and this is good because if it was to hard the new player would just give up.  

you already adress part of that issue by spliting most craft into general crafting and advance crafting. Thats a step that indeed makes people slow down because they have to get one the adventuring level but also the money to buy the advance craft. But still once that steps is passed, it will come down to getting better.

After all, the basic reason of this game and having levels, is to actualy develope your character and making him better. NOw here on Layo whats enjoyable is that you have the physical part and the mind part, hysical part is the char level and mind part is the RP and persona. But sometime there is this grey area that falls within those two, and to me that is crafting. A character can go without crafting all his life and a character can go without fighting all his life. The question is what is the less boring for some type of people.

Crafting if you have the help, can be a very good way to start a character and get involve rapidly into RPing as, if you are low in adventuring level, you have no choice to deal with your surrounding and people to help you out, always depending on the craft you choose to work. While on the other hand, Depending on which kind of class you have, you can actualy get to better youself with relative ease by only adventuring when you start up.

Not to nag anyone but lots of the people complaining don't take the time to adjust to the new setting.
They run down there with the same tactics they use for any other place and hope to win the day... Duh. ...

When ever you start, you use what you can. Most mid-low to mid level character have no choice to use what they can to stay alive. Caster are as much a support class as the cleric or bard, inteh exception that unlike their conterpart at higher level, they still have to do single spells, some will enhance the mass as some will stick to individual, as to bard and clerics gets spells that will enhance a multitude of stats and will affect the mass.

So for those who have what they have, it is perfectuly normal that they will use it.

Between the gnolls and the ogres, the only big diference is the toughness of the new encounters. They react the same and are set in the same ways as the ogres used to be except for one place in that cave, that I wont name. So the basic tactic remains the same.

If you play with people who understand their spells and ahve spent time analysing the effect of them, you will see that they set their spells differently . But that will always aslo depend on what type of character they play.

You have the offensive wizard, that his focus is on offence, summons, mass damage spells and range attack spells. And you got the support mage that his focus will be to enhance the party he is with, giving them protection, speed and strenght (not that strengh is a general use of the term buffing their stats)

There is alos the fact, that people do not always go with the same people, so since they do not know how they fight, even if you talk about it before, they will prepare for what they have the most knowledge of.

[darkstorme]

When ever you start, you use what you can. Most mid-low to mid level character have no choice to use what they can to stay alive. (...)
So for those who have what they have, it is perfectuly normal that they will use it.

I think you missed Witch Hunter's point.  It's not that people are using the wrong things because they have no other option.  It's that people who used to solo Haven, or had a set routine to take it, continue to use their old tactics and die in the process.  It's not a matter of who has what.  It's a matter of adaptability.  The gnolls ARE harder, and as such, tactics will not work identically... because while you might be expecting the second response to combat AFTER you've killed the first guard, you might find that the first one survives long enough to give two of them a shot at you at once.. then three.. and then any tactics basically fall apart in favour of the "retreat" option.

The key here is not what wizards choose to do, or the benefits of one class over another, but group tactics, and the way that a difficult encounter requires better communication prior to and during a battle.

There is alos the fact, that people do not always go with the same people, so since they do not know how they fight, even if you talk about it before, they will prepare for what they have the most knowledge of.

And this is precisely the point that Witch_Hunter was trying to make.  People need to learn to adapt to new groups.  Just because they've travelled with others before shouldn't mean that their tactics are set in stone - even their spell choice.  A wizard's primary stat is INT, and they have to prepare all their spells - as do clerics.  You would be hard-pressed to find a representative of either class who would consider it prudent to rush into a battle before first discussing with their companions in arms how best to use what arcane/divine power they have available to them... and then to ignore that advice would be foolishness on an almost criminal level.

Regarding the post topic:  Even not having been down Haven since V3 rolled out, I don't think any change is necessary.  It's a lovely dungeon-crawl, suitably deadly, and using spells sparingly and kitting up with scrolls and potions and healing kits before a trek makes for interesting prep and tactics.  (Plus, as many people have pointed out, it wouldn't make RP sense to change it.  The ghosts are still there, regardless of the mine's other inhabitants.)

[Dorganath]

Dorg it's not a matter of aboslutly having to get the highst. It's just something that happens.  You will notice that every craft ( i think ) have a use in game, but what is realy being used? THe mid to high rate things. Truly if you take a look just at weapons, it cost just slightly less to produce a copper sword than by one. But when you look in game, beside the truly new player that are not yet at level 8 without enchantment does it realy have a use.. no So what do you do when you want to make a small income from the crafting? You have to get better.

(remainder deleted for brevity)

No, it's not just "something that happens".  My character is, I believe, a 17th level Alchemist, something that has taken him over 2 RL years to accomplish.  And you know what?  That's perfectly fine with me.  It was never about making an income, which I might add he still does not have. My character is not part of a crafting/trade guild and I don't see it happening. But if he ever does, it would be for the RP aspect and not for the profit or crafting advancement.  But then, I've been told I'm strange...

At least for me, and I realize that I do not speak for everyone and that your own preferences may differ, crafting has never been about being "useful" or "profitable" but rather it has been one fairly significant aspect of my character's development, but it has developed over a long time, just like my character has developed in other ways over the same period of time.  And for the most part, my character has not pursued crafts which don't make sense, nor has he pursued recipes that involve things he is not able to get readily on his own.  That is less an issue of soloing and more an issue of self-sufficiency and the general mindset of the character (i.e. "Pay for aloe?  Why spend the money when I can pick it myself?").

I'm merely stating that, in my own observation, I see a lot of characters who shoot through crafting levels and attain fairly high crafting abilities at relatively low character levels (low-to-mid teens).  They seem to be chasing that proverbial brass ring where they can finally make some item or class of items and/or make a lot of coins in the process, and they seem to be in such a hurry to do so.

And you are right about the crafting badge thing.  We did add those in as a means of slowing things a bit and to take some gold from the economy, though it's quite easy to get the 500 or so gold for the first badge and if the second causes a crafter to have to slow down a bit then it's doing its job.

But this has gotten far, far, far off-topic.

[Nibor21]

I don't see any reason why resting should be permitted in Haven mines. Look at it from the RP aspect - this is an area where monsters come and go, patrolling etc. This is their territory not yours, you shouldn't feel safe anough to rest after all they may be just around the corner.....

And iron is more difficult to get. So what? Bronze has been a much under-used commodity in the game for a long time now. In fact from an RP perspective it is good that iron is now scarce. With the smelting technologies available, making steel for weapons should be difficult. In fact bronze is better for weapons than iron (although not better than steel).

One other point - it was actually rather common to see queues outside Haven Mines of individual metal workers wanting to go in and get their 15 ingots of iron ore. This will aid co-operation between individuals and mean that those who decide not to craft can earn coin from the individuals who want the ore. The coin will go to pay for the weapons after all, so  the effect upon the economy should improve

[Polak76]

I agree with Dorg's last comment.
My new character aims to become a doctor/Scientist (what type of doctor is left to the imagination).  For that matter he's getting stuck into Alchemy and scribing.  I want to get two up a little before i begin my CDQ.
Thus I agree that crafting is an extension to a person's personality rather than a profit making scheme.  The only exception is if poeple make characters whom seek a merchant-style role in Layo.

[Acacea]

Regarding iron being more difficult to get now being okay, I have to reiterate that miners should be concerned that Haven has clearly been overmined and become more hostile, and should seek new resource locations... so ...yes, HAVEN's iron is a little more difficult to get...but...

[Eight-Bit]

If new characters/players are having trouble with any area you should point them towards the Group Play Seminar that I am hosting this Sunday at 10pm EST. If they still have problems after I teach them the basics fundamentals of a group they should come back for the next few sundays after that.

[hawklen]

If new characters/players are having trouble with any area you should point them towards the Group Play Seminar that I am hosting this Sunday at 10pm EST. If they still have problems after I teach them the basics fundamentals of a group they should come back for the next few sundays after that.

You forgot "SUNDAY..sunday..sunday" *monster truck voice*

And those gnolls are pure evil I tell you!

[AeonBlues]

I would like to thank the DM staff for making haven and other areas on Milstone more challenging.  Now there is much better adventuring oportunity for characters levels 9 to 12, that was sorely lacking.  This will help bring our comunity together new and old.

The problem with Haven is not a lack of resting.  The problem is a deficiency in player tactics.  Over the past six months strong tactics has degraded from our player base only to be replaced by brute force.  I am often frustrated now as I watch characters die because the party was too impatient to formulate a sound strategy to deal with a difficult encounter.

Here are some basic tips I learned in Haven long ago, and they still apply.

1.  Don't use healing spells out side of combat.  After the combat use bandages to heal up your wounds.  Every character should have lots, and I mean LOTS of bandages now.  Move your party to a reasonably safe location and bandage up those wounds.

2.  Avoid combat when possible.  If there is nothing in a room that you need, then don't go in it.

3.  Use choke points.  This is one of the tactics that I always thought of as a Layo staple, but is not used enough any more.

4.  Focus on spells that increase AC, duh.

5.  Hammer of the gods.  In my opinion this is the best spell in NWN.  I am not seeing it used nearly enough.  If they don't seem to be working, then owl.  Ask that druid to giive you the special druid owl spell, it stacks with owls wisdom.  Any spell that paralyzes or stuns in mass effect will greatly benefit a party in Haven.  Even a grease spell, well placed in front of a choke point will have a strong effect.

6. On second thought, bring some extra bandages, you can never have enough of those things.

7.  Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience Patience

AeonBlues

[hawklen]

7.  Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients Patients.

AeonBlues

Yes, there are lots of them after a large party through haven. Keeps those poor healers busy ^_-

Patience I think you meant *winks and hides*

Oh, and my fighter dwarf buys lots of bandages, and uses those tactics. With my cleric, to him, nothing is more fun than fighting two or three spawn points at once

[AeonBlues]

You know  I can't spell.  I try, I use a spell checker.  Alas, spelling has always been my greatest weakness.  That being said, I would not trade weaknesses with anyone else.

AeonBlues

[Dorganath]

Heh....you spelled things right AeonBlues.  Hawklen was making an auditory joke due to the two words having very similar pronunciation.

[AeonBlues]

*turn beat red, and then starts laughing*  Good one.

[hawklen]

*bows* My work is done. *wraps cape around himself and flies off*