Invisibility to undead

[Varka]

After having got a post from a GM concerning undeads it got me thinking…

I don’t know if undeads see, listen etc…
I believe it is that they can sense the presence of life itself which they hate and therefore move onward to end it. May it be plants, animals or humans.

According to old AD&D there was a cleric spell created (I think it was lvl 3). It gave you 100% invisibility to undead and not 99% like the normal layo invisibility.  
The normal invisibility is namely an illusion and should therefore not work on undeads in my opinion. Living foes are another thing. (Where I believe it works fine)

My question: Could there be made another spell – invisibility to undead?

I know there is restrictions of what can be done on layo, there are few which do the programming and that you have a ton of other ideas. This is just another idea and nothing else. Think about it – skip it or use it. Too many details can also be too much sometimes.

If this idea is brought further then here are some other things which would be involved. Here are some associations which came to my mind.

-   Hide. Does it work?
-   Other illusions spell vs. undeads
-   Could undead just be set to be immune to illusion and it would work? Even if it is not an attack?
-   Define how undeads work. See, listen, sense, feel etc.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I really like this idea, although I think it would require a lot of work to accomplish it. In my opinion invisibility should not work on undead. Zombies may have something that still looks like eyes, but they will be non-functional. Skeletons do not have eyes. Undead do not see, but rather "feel" or "sense" the life force in living things - and they hate it! So whoever passes gets torn apart and/or eaten.
  So to stay unseen to undead one should have to hide ones life signals, body heat, positive energy aura... or something like that.

[blonde]

Invisibility is one of those effects that are hardcoded into the engine, as are how creatures detect/perceive others. But if we really want invis not to work on undead, how about giving all undead See Invisibility?

[Varka]

Let me throw in another ball here…

I like both comments. Hidding your “life energy” would for me seem impossible but this is fantasy and therefore it should not be totally impossible.

 I would suggest to give undeads a lot of skills point in spot/listen just to show their ability in spotting the foes. Nothing else.

Giving them see invisibility would bring the last touch…but..

1.   Would it influence the rating of the monster? Give a PC more XP? If so then it should be considered again.
2.   Does the influence the shifter spell? (A mage morphing into a zombie)

[Rayenoir]

Undead do not have senses that they aren't listed as having, even though you think they should... If undead didn't navigate via sight, they would be specified as having blindsight or blindsense, and thus things like Ghostly Visage or Displacement wouldn't work on them either, as they are also Illusion spells meant to fool the eyes.  Darkness shouldn't impede their "vision" either.  So say goodbye to concealment of most kinds against undead.  By that line of logic, one shouldn't be able to hide from them either, really.  Unless of course, one was used to masking one's own life signs.

Key is to remember that illusions are not just sight-based.  Invisibility itself is a spell of the glamer subschool of Illusion.  Glamers are capable of fooling all senses, and so can trick whatever senses for navigation that undead normally possess, be it vision or "undeadsight".  Why exactly should undead *not* be susceptible to Illusions?  Isn't a general immunity to mind effects enough?

Personally, I'd prefer to see Listen work universally against invisible creatures before seeing undead get around a spell that I don't think they really should be able to (aside from making the aforementioned Listen check).

I know that NWN is only based on PnP, and doesn't use the rules from the books in full, but let's consider them before throwing permanent See Invisibility around for an entire classification of monsters willy-nilly, okay?

[Frendh]

I'd have to disagree. I don't know about D&D or AD&D rules, but in my experience in
rp games, movies, stories or what not, hiding behind a boulder always kept you out of
sight from the undead. Likewise with invisibility. No x-ray vision there or sense
living abilities.

As for the Invisibility spell itself, how does it actually work? Does it bend light
or does it affect the mind directly for anyone who "observes" the target? Again, I
do not know the rules, but I know for a handful of D&D players closing your eyes or
being blind isn't relevant to illusionary spells (even when blind, deaf and numb
phantasmal killer and weird will kill you good if you fail the saves.)

As far as I know the general undead guy have never had any super sense to locate
anything.

[ZeroVega]

I always saw 'Invisibility' as pure magic. You can't use science to explain what it does. It magically conceals you from sight. Now I wouldn't think it would mask sounds or smells. And if someone is able to "feel" life forces, it wouldn't mask that either.

As for what Frendh said about Phantasmal Killer and Wierd, well, I always saw the spells as projecting an immage into your mind. Hence the Will Save. Closing your eyes wouldn't do anything against it, you'd still have to save, and if you failed, you'd still get a terrifying immage projected into your head.

All in all I sorta like this. I wish more creatures could "hear" you while invisible. And I'm more than a little sure that there are creatures out there that could "sense" or smell you, invisible, sneaking, or not.

ZV-

[Leanthar]

What ZV stated is right on. And I too think creatures should be able to smell, hear, 'feel' one when they are invisible--but the engine does a poor job at that (just like most AI checks).

[blonde]

The creatures can actually hear you, or at least they have that ability. But most of them cant do anything about it and will just keep wandering around (looking for the sound). Some of them, which are able to cast spells like see invis and true seeing, will actually do so, as soon as they hear someone that they cant see.

[Eight-Bit]

blonde - 2/22/2006  11:17 AM

The creatures can actually hear you, or at least they have that ability. But most of them cant do anything about it and will just keep wandering around (looking for the sound). Some of them, which are able to cast spells like see invis and true seeing, will actually do so, as soon as they hear someone that they cant see.

Along with Invisiblity Purge. The AI is right on for Spellcasters, but other classes are totally useless.

I believe this Invisiblity Against Undead would really be neat. From what I could imagine, all Undead would simply have some form of See Invisiblity on them at all times. Perhaps when they spawn, it is cast automatically on them like the Ogre Mages used to do if I recall correctly. Then, a form of the sanctuary spell could be altered to work only on the Undead race, and really up things for Clerics, Bards, Wizards, and Mages. But, if we want to keep things simple, which I've always thought Layonara was all about, Invisibility and Invisibility Against Undead are just rolled into one spell because of the limitations of the NWN system. Cool as it may be, I think the more mundane Undead shouldn't have it, where as the DM controlled Undead should. Or atleast that's up to the DM in question of course.