Login Message Regarding Dark Ages

[Acacea]

Before V3b went in, we had a message upon logging in that informed players of the state of the world. Once it went in, we had a READ THE FORUMS!! message, and now a simple "Welcome to Layonara."

Could we get another such message regarding the Dark Ages and the basic state of the world/nature? Perhaps even a reminder that what is in game is not necessarily a direct representation of the state of Layonara?

While I understand how annoying for both team and players it would be to say, reduce natural CNR by 80% (*coughs*) and replace the food in taverns with things more appropriate, there is not much point in doing a "Dark Ages" without it. Right now most people 'know' that we're in some kind of dark age, but many might as well think it's just because it's a bit shady out. Of course, this affects the unseen NPC population a great deal, starving the masses, breeding resentment, and so on, but the people actually playing here are affected not at all. Areas are still added with bright blooming meadows and healthy CNR, areas are tweaked to add ponds with gracefully lovely flowers and green grass surrounding it, birds chirp in the morning...

The 'adventurers' live in a completely different world than the common people, and while sometimes that is the case for IC reasons, in this one it is just ignorance of how it is supposed to be, because of a lack of representation. It's really awkward to roleplay when everyone has a different view of the situation, the most common being the general knowledge that a lot of people are hungry, but not understanding why - so we have all these charities, for instance, that will collect all this food from all these adventurers, who bring in their pies and steaks and food magically grown somewhere to donate...when the problem is the scarcity of such things.

I'm not actually asking for CNR to be reduced, I understand the amount of work that it would take to make Layonara actually look like it's in the Dark Ages and the fact that most players would probably hate it (well who loves the Dark Ages?). I do think there needs to be some obvious and immediate stand on it for those outside of quests, or who do not read year-old announcements or dig through old posts in the forums. What we have now to represent it is the world itself. Hence the request for another log-in message. Or something in the Eye of the Storm. I don't know. State of the world stuff needs to be immediately apparent upon logging in.

[Interia_Discordius]

I think what would also be really nice would be for there to be some sort of dark fog inside the cities... I hate how bright and happy looking they are, even the lands. I think until the dragon storm campaign begins, it'd be nice for the entire lands to be shrouded in darkness.

It'd make us shadowdancers and darkness loving creatures very happy

[Skywatcher]

I am pretty sure that my post recommending that people donate all they can had something to do with this post.  But this does bring up some good points.  I think there should be something on entry into the world as suggested here that makes it obvious what the state of affairs is.  But there also needs to be ways that players can express their willingness to help and be charitable.  Contributing CNR and items reflects a time commitment that the player was willing to put in to reflect their character's interest in a particular effort.  Its a way the GM team can measure support and then make changes in the world that make sense based on that support.  So I would say that even though everyone understands that its hard out there and that food and water are scarce that there has to be a way for them to share and be generous.  It's up to the team to determine the effect that any help might have.  Maybe it doesn't do anything since the problem is so hard but if we simulate the hard conditions 100% all of the characters would just be spending all their time trying to eat and there would be no adventure.  Any way that's my two cents.  I am not trying to pretend things aren't hard but instead to use the game mechanics that exist to allow those who wish it to express their support and generosity for the team to see and do with what they will.

[Acacea]

The post was really more of a reminder than a kick in the face - the discrepancy has been present and known from the moment it was announced that there was little food to be had in the world, but CNR and buyable food was left untouched. As far as your thread goes, I don't think there is anything wrong at all with a character pleading for people to donate what they can instead of hoarding it or leaving it. As well, a character who was not really in the know about nature might think that it is far better to strip everything available from a plant, not realizing that in these times it might be the last of it. So things will be said in character, and responded to by other characters, hehe.

There is the fact that in most cases though, there should not be apples on those trees or berries on those bushes that people pass by... that those fields aren't so plentiful and would likely be guarded to protect what is more valuable than gold in these times. It is hard to say it is very easy to contribute all this and be in character, at that point. It takes serious work to gather food under these conditions. If we get 500 fruit pies and steaks in for a cause, it is nice that people made the effort, but where does it all come from? How much should they count?

My character is absolutely willing to help the hungry, but she's hungry too. Yes, reducing CNR would have the effect of adventurers trying to find food to eat as well. Because they are... or would be. It probably wouldn't be a lot of fun...starving isn't fun. Maybe though, we should just avoid entering such stages of the world if we cannot represent them, or something. Or pretend! We do that in roleplaying, anyway.

It would be an OOC pain to make it other than how it is, but it is how it is IC, according to how the creators of the world announce it, right? So some sort of compromise needs to be found, or I guess just wait until the clouds blow away and everyone gets some sunshine again, hehe... the PCs won't really feel it for the most part either way. I just know that there are two different worlds - one painted by the team on the forums and occasionally in quests, and the other, that we all play in regularly. The Dark Ages is just an OOC note in history, because the majority of adventurers don't actually live in them. The NPCs do...we just watch them go by. If we really intend there to be any feel of the dark ages at all in the module, there needs to be some kind of in-game presence other than extra shade.

It doesn't really have to be so bad as reducing CNR and making it a drag for everyone, if it's true that no one could stand it. Just pretend that the food we find isn't ripe, or is rotten, but we have to salvage what we can of it. The food in taverns and such is pathetic, or fish. The pretty green grass, wilted and washed out from lack of sun, the rain perhaps streaks dark with the ash it travels through to reach the surface. It's no longer a 'handful' of berries/corn/etc per item, but literally a single berry or kernel...scarce. Roleplay that you pick everything, but maybe leave some after all. It's easy to fake it. I just was suggesting an in-your-face means of letting people know that some pretending is necessary. It gets awkward.

This thread wasn't really intended to whine too much about there being too much CNR, but rather just explain why I think it's really important that something even as small as a message about the state of the world or lack of food despite in-game CNR, be attempted to bridge the two very different worlds being played in. That's why the thread title was really just a request to add a message to login, and not changing anything drastic. I would like drastic, I just don't think it's probable. What is easy is just putting the message back in, hehe. It's the difference between "there's too much CNR, fix it!" and "because there is too much CNR and it's unlikely to change at this point, maybe instead..."

I'm not sure if the really long rambling helped clear it up or only muddled it further, but either way I'll just stop now before I make it worse. *Shifty.*

[Skywatcher]

That helps me understand your intent a lot.  I guess the question that comes to mind for me is how the team measures player contribution to projects in game.  If all the players RPd that there was only one tenth of the available CNR then there would be one tenth of the contiribution to a charity but if the team assumed that any contributions to charity were worth ten times as much since all the players should be RPing one tenth then that could be abused by someone who just took it all and turned it in.  I am thinking that the amount of CNR in the world is about right in order to allow reasonable progress in crafting and maintain value of items for the economy and such so since as you say its probably not pratical to reduce the CNR then the team should just interpret the amounts that come in in a way that makes sense and balances the change in the world with the appropriate amount of effort in game to get the resources.

And a statement on login to remind people what the state of the world is would be a great idea.  

[Dorganath]

Well the issue is this...

For several reasons, CNR, especially the growing kind (whether animal or plant) was not touched at all during the Dark Ages.  There are two key reasons for this:

1) fun factor
2) time

People craft for fun and for profit. In terms of edible goods, it's more for fun, though plenty of plant materials are needed for other crafts as well.  It would have taken a huge amount of time to go through and remove some or all of certain resources, making them very rare, but this would have taken a lot of time to do.  Another, fairly quick option would have been to lengthen the respawn rate of such CNR deposits, but now we're cutting into the fun factor.

I point everyone reading this at all the comments made after V3 was released and some CNR just wasn't where it "should have been" or was harder to obtain.  Some of that was an oversight...some of it was intentional...but the casual gaming crafter gets frustrated rather quickly under such circumstances, and so we're back to "fun factor".

It would have been nice to have some more dynamic control over CNR spawning and placement so that we could, for example, phase in a longer regrowth time over the 10 RL months since the Dark Ages officially began, but alas...hindsight being what it is...

So Acacea's points here are very valid, and unfortunately, the lack of change in CNR has caused people to forget that food and such are scarce, which is why at the plot quest a few weeks ago, some players/characters were dumb-founded by the idea that common people might be starving.

To answer how the team tracks donations...we have ways *evil interrogator voice* of tracking these things.  The thing is, what's available in-game at this time is a little out-of-sync with what should be available.  But then applying some kind of multiplier would get messy.

In my personal opinion, if people want to contribute food by crafting it and donating it, they should think about what kinds of things people will want/need at this time and craft that, not what will help them level in the craft.

For example:  Hungry people don't need pie.  Roasts probably don't make much sense either, since...let's face it...they don't keep as well as something like jerky.  And unless someone's going to run a "soup kitchen" kind of a deal, it just doesn't particularly help in a food bank kind of situation.  What does make sense is things like breads, jerky, juices and ales.  The latter may sound more recreational than nutritional, but it was very common for monks who would fast for a month to sustain themselves on ale or beer.  Make all the jokes you want, the stuff does have some nutritional value, and is a good way to stretch what little grain may be available.

[Serissa]

My dad was a doctor/paratrooper in WWII.  He told me that French mothers fed their babies boiled beer when no milk was available.

[J-ser]

I've got no idea how the area module works, but even small measures that I think would take almost no time to change would help. Making it snow in all major cities/frequently visited areas, or toning down the amount of light would help. It snowed in Hlint once in V2 and lo' and behold, the characters went from sitting on the bench happily chatting to huddled around campfires shivering. Little graphic reminds of the sort make it easier to roleplay. The diffrence between a sunny field and a dark field or snowy field changes the mind set of people. Its much easier to roleplay a lack of food in a snow covered wasteland, or even a snowcover field than it is in an area that looks like spring. With even small changes, people move from happy, carefree, adventures to shivering, cold, hungry characters.

[Dorganath]

Snow is easier to do, because we can do that in-game.

Changing light levels in a meaningful way requires module updates....and of course, it needs to be reset to what they should be once the dark ages are over.  This is a huge amount of work.

The dark clouds should be a fair reminder of the darkness.

[Crunch]

You might also considering tweaking what is available from merchants and inns.  For instance, make the chef's special not available some of the time at some inns because he can't get the secret ingredient.  (dogs run fast in this hungry times)