My problem with invisibility

[jjkolb]

The exploration rewards thread got me thinking.  Actually, I was thinking about this for a while now.  I think we need to alter the invisibility spell somewhat, if possible.  Here's my problem with it:  Klaug (my paladin) has had the spell cast on him (as well as others in the party) to sneak past difficult foes.  (This goes against Klaug's code of honor, but for the good of the group, he relented; but that is another discussion).  Sure, visually, he is hidden, but a rogue he is not.  I know that several fallen branches would have snapped under his heavy plated boot, tipping off the creatures that something was nearby.  Not to mention the general clanking that his armor (and your filled pouches, if you don't wear metal armor) would cause.  Would it be possible to factor noise into this situation?  I grant you that rogues are a stealthy lot and should be able to sneak past most foes.  On the other hand, I think running around the world while invisible makes it too easy for some other classes to explore and collect CNR.  My $.02.

Oh, and if this has been a topic before, feel free to point me there.

[Dorganath]

You left out smell.

While you make a good point, most creatures cannot attack a sound...or a smell for that matter.  Those who can are essentially unaffected by the Invisibility spell.  Some opponents will cast See Invisibility when an invisible PC comes into perceptual range.  I always assumed this models the "Did you hear something?" reaction that would be natural.

You are right though, the spell makes you invisible, not completely undetectable.  However, to adjust it as you suggest, then it's essentially only as good as the hide/move silent/stealth skills, which for fighters, paladins, mages....is pretty useless.  Mages might only wear robes instead of clinking armor, but they're still far from silent, and their spell components frequently give off a rather pungent odor...all of which would be detectable by a suitably perceptive monster/creature.

As for the CNR gathering...that only applies to CNR that can be picked.  It doesn't help anyone gather wood, mine minerals or mine ore.  In my own personal opinion, the advantage it gives here offsets the fact that mages would have next to no chance whatsoever of gathering certain very basic CNR/spell components on their own without using Invisibility or enlisting the help of some decently strong fighters EVERY time.

I would also counter that invisibility has helped save the lives of party members (i.e. after the fighters have all died) and has ensured a safe escape, which is something a sound-sensitive Invisibility spell would not allow.

Lastly, with Bioware's invisibility bug, there's always a chance it won't work just right anyway...and archers seem to be able to keep targeting invisible PCs if they go invisible during combat...at least sometimes they do.  

(short version: You can pry my Invisibility from my cold, dead hands!!!! )

[Rayenoir]

Dorganath - 7/19/2005  1:30 PM

Lastly, with Bioware's invisibility bug, there's always a chance it won't work just right anyway...and archers seem to be able to keep targeting invisible PCs if they go invisible during combat...at least sometimes they do.  

..and people under cover of darkness... and people who go stealth mode while under cover of darkness... and people who leave the darkness while stealth moded while being under the darkness...
(incidentally, this is how Parvin got her last DT.  I dropped a darkness while we were being fired on by giants, but did that stop them?  I'm not bitter, noooo...)

I concur with Dorganath.  There are enough unfixable bugs in the game that effect things that *should* work.  No need to break down the things that do.

[Leanthar]

I do agree with you jjkolb and that has been my complaint/concern for three years now...well as well as in PnP sessions.  Sadly we just have so many things to fix/work on that we can not get to this one.

[jjkolb]

Leanthar - 7/19/2005  6:17 PM

I do agree with you jjkolb and that has been my complaint/concern for three years now...well as well as in PnP sessions.  Sadly we just have so many things to fix/work on that we can not get to this one.

Well I, for one, will RP it then.  So if Klaug is in a party that wants to use invisibility to sneak past a group of deadly enemies, chances are he will be detected (if he even agrees to allow himself to be turned invisible).  He will stay and fight--even if it means certain death.  It will be up to the rest of the group to decide whether to help him or not.

[freemen2]

Bah, bioware messed that and sneak up real good...have 42 in hide and 38 in move silent and anyone with true seeing sees me when am not using magic to hide *sighs*

[Zhofe]

Honestly, if you change invisibility then wizards will be absolutly useless until they are much higher level. As it is, wizards are already very limited, especially when not in a group, and for the most part, in battle at mid levels, anything a wizard can do a cleric can do about the same, but have healing spells and armor too.

I know that without invisibility it will be impossible for wizards to really do anything without a full party, and sometimes, people just want to go and explore around alone, or atleast get past bad areas (*COUGH*The Broken Wood*COUGH) so they can do some crafting or something similar.

Though, I do have to agree that true-sight should not see someone sneaking.

[Dorganath]

Zhofe - 7/20/2005  2:07 PM
Though, I do have to agree that true-sight should not see someone sneaking.

True Sight should....See Invisibility should not.

[CuRoi]

Dorganath - 7/20/2005  12:16 PM

Zhofe - 7/20/2005  2:07 PM
Though, I do have to agree that true-sight should not see someone sneaking.

True Sight should....See Invisibility should not.

Actually, I would disagree that True Seeing empowers the caster with the ability to see those (e.g. Rogues) utilizing H/MS.

This is directly from the D20 SRD:

True Seeing

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Now, IMO when a Rogue is utilizing H/MS they are darting between alleys , hiding behind lampposts and crates, blending into the crowd and their environment, etc.  The Bioware engine just doesn’t confer this visually.

The one instance where I believe True Seeing ~may~ function against H/MS would be if they were simply hiding in a shadow within 120ft of the caster.  That is specifically mentioned above and in normal darkness.  I would imagine this to be an opposed task in that specific instance.  

[Dorganath]

I agree with what you're saying...but we all know that rogues and others with decent H/MS aren't slinking along in the shadows or darting between buildings in an alleyway.  They're walking out in the open, using H/MS like Invisibility without magic.  HIPS is the same way, though it's a little different.

I understand that there's only so much the NWN engine can do with that, because there would be too many variables otherwise.

Hiding behind boxes or rocks or trees or whatever...yeah, True Sight shouldn't reveal those.  Slinking along through the shadows.....that should be revealed.

[CuRoi]

Slinking along through the shadows.....that should be revealed.

Agreed.

I always considered HIPS (pulling the shadows in around you, etc) to be a magically-granted feat, and therefore completely susceptible to True Seeing.

[Talan Va'lash]

The reason bioware made things the way they are i believe, is that they didnt want to make a true cover, active lighting (by active I mean that it acctually affects the game dynamics not just a vfx lighting system) and terrain/weather concealment system.

To be fair, doing all this well would be really tough, and probably buggy and exploitable.  It would require that all areas be mapped for their lighting and variable or static weather (i.e. fog) and terrain objects (trees, low walls, trenches) would have to be programed to give bonus' when a creature occupies them.

To implement this with any semblance of realism the engine would have to have been designed completely differently.  As it is I belive the most precise way to apply an effct to a creature baseed on position, is apply it to all creatures in one "square" in the toolset.  Which is really big.  The hlint stage for example, the whole thing and a bit of the grass around it is two squares long and one square wide.  To have an active cover system, the grid would have to have been made much smaller and more precise, so that a creature in a trench would have its benefits, whilest a creature standing 1 foot behind the creature in the trench, but outside of the trench (thus 4-6 feet higher vertically) would not.

Also, NWN isnt a 3d game.  Position mapping and combat are all in 2d, any illusion of 3d is only in the way that information is displayed on the screen.

A system of sneaking that requires you to stick to the shadows and edges of the room etc. will have to wait for a more advanced game engine, as, in NWN, the shadows are merely visual effects.

[Rayenoir]

CuRoi - 7/20/2005  4:54 PM

Slinking along through the shadows.....that should be revealed.

Agreed.

I always considered HIPS (pulling the shadows in around you, etc) to be a magically-granted feat, and therefore completely susceptible to True Seeing.

I agree with this.  If not magically, at least supernatural.

[freemen2]

Ah then was off about the true seeing, like it was said, when I sneak I do it using cover because I enjoy playing that way but also in plain view next to buildings or even not that.  Thought true seeing definition was seeing magical conceled things and not just invisibilty, so I guess I can't grumble about it anymore

However I still reserve to rigth to do so when the see invisibility casting weavers, see me :p

And no, sneak is a worldy art form, not magic, so I'll grumble all I want

[Talan Va'lash]

see invis will not give anyone an advantage at seeing someone hiding using the hide/ms skills (this acctually works correctly)

If someone with see invis sees you sneaking it is merely a coincidence that they had see invis on, it had nothing to do with them seeing you.


My problem with invisibility is that when you get close to other PCs they can see you (although you are transparent.)  This is so that you can click on (to attack) invisible things when you are close enough to locate them by sound or touch.  However, don't RP that you suddenly recognize the person by sight, you cannot see them.  The only reason you can "see" them on screen is because that is the only way for the game to let you attack invisible creatures by sound or knowing they're somewhere around there (thats why you get a 50% miss chance.)

[Zhofe]

Yup, I RP that I see indentations in the grass or that I hear something or something like that. Quin has experience chasing invisible people though.

[freemen2]

Yer sure Talan?  Cause I've gotten caught by ogre mages on Milstone, with there little eyeballs floating around them and I thought they only had see invis, not true seeing?

[Lalaith Va'lash]

freemen2 - 7/21/2005 1:43 AM Yer sure Talan? Cause I've gotten caught by ogre mages on Milstone, with there little eyeballs floating around them and I thought they only had see invis, not true seeing?

  Pure chance that they saw you.  Lalaith has waltzed up to creatures with see invisibility without a problem.. 
  LV

[Talan Va'lash]

Zhofe - 7/20/2005  9:26 PM

Yup, I RP that I see indentations in the grass or that I hear something or something like that. Quin has experience chasing invisible people though.

Me too, Talan has a good listen skill too, so he can at least roughly locate them by sound, especially close but I've seen many times before

Visible character: "*looks around* is someone there?"
Inivisible bob: -says nothing but steps into the range where the game allows him to be seen-
Visible character: "oh, bob, good to see you"

[Frendh]

Invis is an Illusion spell. Why not make believe that it
covers unnecessary sounds too?