Natural Spell Feat

[AeonBlues]

There exists a feat in core D&D 3.5 rules, and NWN 2 that reads as follows....

Natural Spell:
Prerequisites: Wis 13, wild shape ability
Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape.  For example, while in the form of a hawk, you could substitute screeches and gestures with your talons for the normal verbal and somatic components  of a spell.  You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form.  This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while in a wild shape.

I think that this feat would promote better RP for druids.  My reasoning here is in concern with the RP of using Cure potions in animal shape.  The only items that game mechanics allows us to use are potions that target personal only.  When my druid first started using wild shapes, I gave the RP value of using these potions a lot of thought.  I decided that the creators of NWN made it this way for the purpose of game balance.  With out the Natural spell feat, and with out the bad RP (in my opinion) use of potion, then the wild shapes become highly unattractive.

I encourage the staff to consider the option of creating the Natural Spell feat as a Layonara custom feat, and to make target personal potions non accessible.  Please do not just make it so we can't use potions, as like I said that would make wild shapes entirely unattractive.

AeonBlues

[darkstorme]

I'm fairly certain there's no way to grant creature abilities without disabling spellcasting.  It's EffectPolymorph, hardcoded into the engine.  Really, the only way I can think that it could be done would be to create a skin on the spur of the moment, scan your character to find prepared spells, create single-use creature skin spell-like abilities that were equivalent, and have the skin then remove them from your prepared spell list... the lag involved in this, naturally, would be immense.

The potions could be rendered inoperable fairly easily, but you said that the solution should not be simply to disable portions.  To that end, then, I have to say that while it's a neat idea, I can't see that the implementation is worth the benefit.

[AeonBlues]

Ok, I hear it is just an impossible request...

I think I should explain why it is important to leave the potions as is.  Ummm, because we will die much more often

What happens is most shapes give an increase to Con. When our characters in wild shape or polymorph take some heavy damage, and there is not a good healing cleric standing next to them, we would have to shift back into our base humanoid shape to use a potion.  This takes an action, and would reduce our HP to 1, while we then have to take another action to use said potion.  Not to mention that a druid has a very low AC.

AC is another topic, but I think the AC for this class is balanced correctly as the game engine currently works...

So, I imagine that the game designers made target personal potions usable by animal and polymorph shapes for game balance purposes, as no one in their right mind would use wild shapes if they could not drink a potion and get some HP back.

So, while it feels like bad RP to use these potions, I am all ears for a better alternative.

AeonBlues

[Falonthas]

my understanding of natural spell is you can cast when shifted

and that would make druids way overwhelming

if i could cast while in form not only would i be hitting you with three attacks per round plus elemental damages per attack when i have to chose another foe and they have distance i would be calling lighting with a wave of a paw
or flame strike or paw of death

they put it in nwn2 because they didnt have as many shapes for druids other then panther bear badger boar ,the normal four

advanced shape is a layo feat not a nwn feat if im not mistaken and as such natural spell in nwn2 was to give the shapes an added boost to heal and buff while shifted

i could be wrong though
but my two true on the thing

ps and if you are that badly wounded with no healer nearby you can rest and get to above 1 hp and not die
you will still be very torn up and need to heal after the rest but that will shift you back without death

[AeonBlues]

When ever my character has low HP and shifts back to elf shape it always reverts to 1 HP and never < 1.  That being said, the problem is not when combat is over

Darkstorme is saying that it is impossible to make a feat that removes the spell blockers, or what ever it is that makes it so we can't cast in wild / polymorph shapes.

For sake of discussion of game theory...  I don't think that this feat would over balance a druid to say a cleric.  Clerics still get higher ACs, more combat oriented buff spells, a more powerful selection of spells and more of them.  Spontanious casting... Turn undead...

The NWN druid is missing several key aspects that exist in core rules...  The Advance Animal Shapes feat, is a nice feat.  Kudos for making that one.  Also, this would be a new feat selection, and would in itself have a balancing effect.  By the time you got all the feats it takes to make for a powerful druid build, the cleric would still be a more powerful character in combat.

That  being said, I am having way more fun playing a druid, then I ever had playing a cleric.

AeonBlues

[Faldred]

my understanding of natural spell is you can cast when shifted

and that would make druids way overwhelming

I lurk/participate in a "homebrewers" forum, and after a long discussion with the custom content aficionados, the general consensus was that Natural Spell is WAY overpowered as currently defined.

The best balancing solution I saw offered was to change the ability to be a metamagic feat, requiring the Druid (or other shapeshifter) to prepare spells specifically for casting in shifted form, and to do so at one spell level higher than normal.

Now, that said, we still have the problems with the engine limitations...

[AeonBlues]

Ok, now I am curious...

I have a great respect for the game makers of D&D 3.5 rules, as I see them as having a profound understanding of game balance.  What would make this feat over balanced in NWN, but not in core rules PnP?

AeonBlues

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

The shifted forms in NWN are WAY WAY WAY more powerful than in PnP.

[AeonBlues]

Well I am looking  at the PnP Wildshape description for Druids, and umm, I don't see them as being inferior.  Though the times per day does have a variance.

5th level: Any small or medium animal 1 time per day.  I like to had on this that a 5th level druid in PnP can take a bird shape and fly to other parts of the game world.

at 6th 7th 10th 14th and 18th they can shifter more times per day.

At 12th the druid can shape into plant creatures, and Large animal shapes.

At 16th they get Small, Medium, or Large elemental shapes with all the feats, supernatural, and spell like abilities that those elementals have.

At 20th level a druid can shape into a Huge elemental.

So then... what am I missing that makes NWN shapes more powerful then PnP shapes?

I would like to remind people that the purpose of this thread has changed to one of game theory.

AeonBlues

[Dorganath]

Ok, now I am curious...

I have a great respect for the game makers of D&D 3.5 rules, as I see them as having a profound understanding of game balance.  What would make this feat over balanced in NWN, but not in core rules PnP?

AeonBlues

For starters, NWN uses D&D 3.0 rules, not 3.5, which is what NWN2 uses.

So even though they have their basis in the 3rd Edition ruleset, the 3.5 rules were balanced for a 3.5 system, not a hybrid 3.0 system.

Add to this, I believe that EffectPolymorph is what causes spells not to be castable and such, and that's something handled by Bioware's code.  So without writing our own system for polymorphing, I'm simply not sure this can be done.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, first off, the animals in PnP aren't as powerful as the animals in NWN. Last time I saw a Leopard with permahaste in PnP was during a dwarven ale-induced hallucination that included the leopard taking off his face to reveal he had, the whole time, in fact been the head of the St. Cuthbertian church!

[AeonBlues]

no no no Stephen, the potential for animals in PnP are way more powerful then in NWN.

A 12 level druid in PnP could shift into a bison, and stamped over his adversaries.  He could also shift into a griffin, pick  up an NPC fighter with an immense grapple check, then fly his adversary a hundred  feet in the air, and then simply release the poor sod.  He could shift into a shark or a squid if fighting in water.

If I was going to go on the side of saying that the natural spell feat was over powered... I would say it was in relation to a spell called greater stone skin.  GSS does not exist in PnP, and escew in PnP does not cover the normal PnP stone skin which offers DR 10/adamantium and requires 250gp worth of diamond dust.  Any time you are looking at a balancing issue in relation to NWN & Layonara druids, you have to put the greater stone skin spell onto that scale or you are missing a key part of the balancing equation.

AeonBlues

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Actually, as a Bison, he'd have to have the Trample feat in order to do that effectively (i.e. without taking a spear down the throat).

But that's splitting hairs.

The thing is, on Layonara, you can just cast away, then shift, and your spells are there. In PnP, spells aren't as plentiful - you have to wait 24 hours to get new ones. And the shifting is also much more limited. You can't just wait ten minutes. And yes, Eschew makes those spells a lot cheaper.

Aren't druids already powerful enough?