New healing stuffs

[ycleption]

Now first a couple caveats, I haven't been in game a ton since the changes were rolled out, so I haven't fully investigated this. Also, I don't know whether these concerns have been thought about, addressed in some way I'm not aware of, or even considered and rejected as a concern. Finally, my characters work with all three of the affected crafts, so I have a weeee bit of self-interest


While I'm sure that everyone was thrilled with the changes to healing (especially the healing kits), and it gave a real reason to craft them beyond just xp, its a bit of a "giveth with one hand, and taketh away with the other," since all but the highest level are in the shops now.

I think the end effect is better than it used to be, but still the same kind situation as previously, where the highest level aren't so much better than the ones in the shop that the cost of making far exceeds the cost of just buying. Yes, there's a bigger gap between the top two potions than the top two healing kits, but I think there's still an issue for both.

I'm a firm believer that the economy should work so that crafters can make a profit by selling what they make, and while realizing that the game makers can't control what prices the players sell things for, when the current price of a bodak tooth is more than the potion that it makes sells for, I think that there's a problem. Likewise, a +6 heal kit just takes a lot of cnr - whether purchased from gatherers or gathered on ones own, takes more effort than simply purchasing from a temple shop.

It seems to me that simply by having the new and improved lower level healing stuff, the temple vendors have become much more useful, but I think a better balance can be struck between useful to PCs and stealing the thunder from enchanters/alchemists/tailors.

So, as I see it, there are a number of possible solutions. One is increasing the amount of cnr available (particularly bodaks), although that has obvious other implications for crafting difficulty. Increase the output of potions and healing kits from one crafting. Remove at one more tier of healing from the temple sales. Increase the price (I think it was decreased from what it was originally), of at least the higher level healing stuff. I think the last solution is the best, since in addition to protecting crafters, it acts as a true sink for those who prefer to buy from a temple. And maybe potions and healing kits need to be considered differently, with a different solution for each.


So, bottom line:
Changes to healing: Yay!
Temple stocks: Better, but hmm...
Solutions: definitely there, and hopefully not to difficult to implement, if the team decides this is worth dealing with.

[Nehetsrev]

One other solution:  Take the time to consider what goes into each potion or kit (or any craftable item really), and how much those components are then worth in comparison to the prices the potions sell for at the merchants, and then refuse to pay excessive prices to those PC's who wish to sell said components.  This will force players who collect CNR solely to be sold for profit to reconsider what they're doing and thus either cause a drop in their pricing to fit your budget, or force them to stop collecting a resource they can no longer sell at what they consider a worthwhile price.  If they stop collecting the resources, then that frees up the CNR to be collected directly by those who need it for their crafting.

Any way you go, you're still likely to have high-level characters with access to more income who will be able to pay higher prices for the components in bulk that CNR re-sellers will still sell to though, simply because the crafters don't want to take the time to collect their own components when they can buy them in bulk without expending much effort or taking much risk themselves.  The only thing you really do though if you raise prices at the NPC shops is hurt the newer players who don't have resources or contacts to otherwise obtain the things they need, and who already struggle to earn the gold they need simply to survive.

of course, this is just my opinion, and other's opinions may vary.

[Hellblazer]

And by that you just killed the crafting system all together, because no one will see the use of spending countless of hours to gather the resources to craft, or sell to those that need them to craft. By that forcing them to spend the same countless of hours gathering and crafting.
 
 The problem is actually as ycleption described. The prices at the temples are to low. Ask yourself this. Do you see any bronze, iron, platinum, addamentium, etc, gear sold at the traders? No. So why should the temple sell the high end gear, when no other traders do and you are there for left to by at the guild or independent crafters, in that actually helping the crafting system to survive?
 
 For crafting healing potion myself with one of my char, and for having a small gathering business with an other. I can tell you that it is a lot of time spent for nothing to see that you can get the things you need at a rediculous low price. The price for the light potions and kits are on target. I think the others could be slightly higher to actually reflect the market price of the ingredients needed to craft them. Either that, or make the craftable potions and kits more potent.

[jrizz]

The only healing potions that where (and still are) worth selling were the very highest ones (self and target heal). Now granted some feel the self heal is out of the game, unless you are a smart fighter who understands the value (equals willing to pay for it) of one click vs two. Most crafters either found their way around making the lesser healing potions and used some other path to get to the heal potions level or they made lots of lesser ones that they mostly gave away to friends. Rare was it that I saw a blue heal potion let alone be able to buy 50 of them they hardly existed in the game. The crafting was done to get to the ability to make highest level heal potions to sell. But the price of those made effective healing out of reach for many or made people hesitate to toss one. So yes the value of the highest healing potions has now been dropped a bit, MAYBE, but they are still the best and people will still want them. To be able to toss one potion and heal someone for up to 400HP is a great thing. The best potions will still be desired by everyone. But now there is a way to supplement the use of them with AVAILABLE lesser potions. So healing is now available to more players and levels and that is a good thing that should not be removed or made out of reach.

Sorry to be so strong on this but I never once saw a crafter that made blue healing potions available for sale. So I dont think this has hurt anyone. What I think it has done is made the potions that people did sell much more useful, they heal up to 400 HP! I want a full stock of them always and I will pay to have them.

[ycleption]

@Nehetserev
Your point is well taken, but I think that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, that I don't really want to get into; change true to time spent gathering and I think the same arguments apply.

@Jrizz
I'm not really saying that this has hurt anyone; rather I'm guessing that the impetus for this change was suggestions like this , and the pleas were answered, I think well beyond even what was asked for... but in my opinion it undermines the purposes of the request to have them sold at the current prices. I do think it is better than it was before, but really almost a return to the status quo, rather than the kind of improvement for crafters that I think it can be.
*shrugs*

[Hellblazer]

Link is not working.

[Dorganath]

I had some discussions with orth about this last night, and we've worked out some adjustment to Cure and Heal potion crafting. After I get home, I'm going to do the same for healkits.

I'll post again when those are effective.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

http://forums.layonara.com/cnr-suggestions-discussion/115056-increase-bonus-healing-kits.html

[Dorganath]

OK effective the next time the servers are reset (which should be soon-ish because there's an impending update), the following recipes will be in effect. Please note that if one of the game servers resets independently of the other (as in a crash), one server may have these before the other. It will all sort itself out once both servers have been reset.

Anyway, as stated, orth and I had some talks and we agreed on the following, which should help the curve a bit.  We'll let this ride for at least a time and see how it shakes out.

The recipes affected are the Alchemy Cure and Heal potions and the Tailoring Healer's Kits.  For the potions, the recipe changes apply to both self-use and targeted. The changes are as follows:

For potions, the concept behind these changes was that the Essences become something like a catalyst or amplifier, bringing out the healing properties of the other ingredients, which in turn determine potency.  Each recipe still only produces a single potion.

Essence of Cure -- No changes

Essence of Healing --
2 - Purple Mushroom
1 - Empty Vial
2 - Dust of Sapphire (was 5)
The number of dusts needed has been cut in half and the crafting level has been dropped slightly, making it an easier recipe to complete.

Cure Light Wounds  -- No changes

Cure Moderate Wounds -- No changes

Cure Serious Wounds --
2 - Ginger Root
1 - Empty Flask
2 - Essence of Cure (was 4)
The number of essences has been halved, making these far less cumbersome to craft in quantity. Crafting level has been decreased slightly, making it an easier recipe to complete and so that it progresses more linearly among the rest.

Cure Critical Wounds --
2 - Ginseng
1 - Empty Flask
1 - Essence of Healing
The Bodak tooth requirement has been removed and the multiple (5, to be exact) Essence of Cure requirement has been replaced by Essence of Healing in a single quantity. Crafting level has been decreased slightly, making it an easier recipe to complete (it was on the same order as Heal) and so that it progresses more linearly among the rest.

Potion of Heal --
1 - Bodak Tooth
1 - Empty Flask
2 - Essence of Healing
4 - Ginseng
The Bodak Tooth requirement has been reduced from 3 to 1, and the amount of Ginseng was increased slightly. Crafting level remains the same, but material needs have been reduced overall.

For the Healer's Kits, the trend is toward a slight reduction in material needs in favor of increased yield.  Cotton needs have been replaced by cloth, as it seems a logical thing for making bandages, compresses and the like. The recipes didn't really change much, but overall, the increased output should offset the tediousness of gathering somewhat.

Light Healer's Kit --
1 - Essence of Cure
1 - Cloth
Yield: 3 kits

Moderate Healer's Kit --
1 - Essence of Cure
1 - Cloth
3 - Aloe
Yield: 3 kits

Serious Healer's Kit --
2 - Essence of Cure
1 - Bolt of Silk
3 - Aloe
3 - Garlic
Yield: 3 kits

Critical Healer's Kit --
2 - Essence of Cure
1 - Bold of Silk
3 - Aloe
3 - Garlic
2 - Comfrey
Yield: 3 kits

As I said, we're going to let these ride for at least a few weeks to see how it all works out.

Enjoy!

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Awesome!  I might actually get a decent amount of healing kits made next week now!