Requesting lowering demands for .....

[jan]

Requesting to lower the demands for *drum roll* the feat .......

Devastating critical ( yup , you all knew when reading the first few words )

Requesting to lower the strength needed to take this feat on a few grounds :

The strength as it is required now means that only characters that get strength bonuses at creation or characters that are made with such high strength that they could get to it around level 30 , places it outside most peoples grasp .

Spells that kill are allowed , as are attacks that make creatures sway on their feet making them helpless .

With the discussion about poison and lengthen the duration of it , it was said by more then one that the saving-throws at higher level are high enough to withstand most things so this also should count for " devastating critical " and its saves against it .

I want to suggest that taking the feat will require 10 + levels of Weapon Master ( was thinking about 13 since that is the last level that a weapon-master gets a feat  ) to control the amount off characters that could take it .
Requesting this because the description of " Epic Weapon master " states that the weapon-master will get the ability to deal - devastating damage - at higher levels. ( description can be found on LORE )
And to make the weapon-master a really unique character in the end .

Jan.

[Weeblie]

There is a considerable difference between instant death spells and Devastating Critical: The last is rolling a save for each crit (which with a reasonable melee WM character is at least 30% chance... approaching 50% when optimized). It would be like a character having unlimited numbers of wails/weirds.

The DC from dev crit is also increadible. A level 30 strength (duhhh...) based character would have a DC of around 40... Poisons have very, very much lower DCs and their effect is no where near dev crits (heh, instant death is pretty much the best effect possible).

In my opinion, dev crit shouldn't exist at all. Or exist with a "at that level, against creatures of that level, quite useless" DC of 10 + str mod.

In its present shape and form... anyone ever getting this feat will be a true monster.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

It's not different from Quivering Palm.  However, if a New feat could be made that works like Quivering Palm for WM, that IS only usable once a day, that would seem fair to me.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Oh and Weebs, the DC for  Dev Crit is 10+ 1/2 Char Levels + str Mod

So a Level 30 Fgt/WM with 30 str is only 10 +15 +10, so 35.  high, sure, but its no higher then a Mage with Focus in the right school casting Weird or Wail, I believe...

[jan]

Bruce Lee was a monster in his own way

Spell-slingers with hellbals are monsters

Spell-slingers with wail/weird are monsters

Wail/weird affects complete groups that are in the area , no matter how many creatures there are .( not completely sure , basing this on people getting two spawns together to work them with the spells )

Lvl 13 weapon-master will mean that ( when having the demanded str and approved ) it can at the soonest been taken at lvl 19 ( with a power build - i want to become weapon-master as fast as i can ) character .

I don't know what the saves are for high lvl spells like " finger of death " nor what they are for wail/weird , but hearing that the AoE spells are mostly used in the areas with higher lvl creatures to me sounds like they are high as-well.

A weapon-master at full strength SHOULD be a fighting monster , simply because the character " over-specialises " in ways that other fighters cant .

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Just one point.

Starting STR, 16.

STR up at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, and 36.

Great STR at levels 24, 26, 29, 32, and 36.

STR 30.

Or, you could take one different character-level-based feat in your epic levels, and have STR 30 at level 40. (Though you'd need to be getting a Fighter Bonus Feat to take Dev Crit at level 40.)

Considering that an optimized (read: scimitar-using) WM will have an unenchanted base Threat Range of 12-20, that's a GUARANTEED 20.25% chance of a critical hit, and thus, forcing the creature to roll against instant death that often, even if its AC is 300.

For a Longsword WM, that percentage drops... To 16%.

Minimum DC of this attack, for a pure-STR, level 36 UNENCHANTED WM is 38.

Capping STR makes that - at minimum level - 44. This means that - dismissing natural 20s - a character/npc must have a bare minimum of +19 (or +25) to Fortitude saves... Something that only high Fortitude progression classes can get without some CRAZY bonus items.

Edit: I just realized that, in order to get Dev Crit by 36, you'd need to have had the opportunity to take Overwhelming Critical as a Bonus Feat (i.e. on a Fighter level). Otherwise, the earliest you can take it is 39.

[s0ulz]

Even though I'm certain that your intentions are good Jan, you have to ponder on the timing and suggestion of all this... It looks a lot like lowering the prereqs for shortcomings of Barion. However I doubt it's the case, so on to the point.

Restricting it to WMs is definitely not a good idea. Even though I understand your reasoning behind it, it would be too restrictive. Lowering the STR prereq isn't too good an idea either, since as it is, Dev. Crit is the pinnacle of the strength focusing melee path. Just like DR and poison/disease immunity is when you go high CON. Every focus has it's good and bad sides and I think it should stay as it is. Dev. Crit is a powerful ability for those that can actually get it, so let's keep it like that.

Considering that an optimized (read: scimitar-using) WM will have an unenchanted base Threat Range of 12-20, that's a GUARANTEED 20.25% chance of a critical hit, and thus, forcing the creature to roll against instant death that often, even if its AC is 300.

Hold the phone here chief. It's a guaranteed threat for a critical. If the critter has AC 300, you'll only force it to save vs. death on 20's.

[Weeblie]

Oh and Weebs, the DC for  Dev Crit is 10+ 1/2 Char Levels + str Mod

So a Level 30 Fgt/WM with 30 str is only 10 +15 +10, so 35.  high, sure, but its no higher then a Mage with Focus in the right school casting Weird or Wail, I believe...

Your estimation is basing on that dev crit only has a str req of 18 which is quite flawed, I would think. Even lowering the str req to 28 (down from 30), some simple items and a buff would put the strength to 40, giving you the DC of 10 + 30 / 2 + 15 = 40.

Wail/Weird are indeed affecting more than a single monster, but from them, you get Spellcraft bonuses to saves and similar. Dev crit doesn't have that "flaw". Finger of deaht and similar spells would have even lower DCs than Wail/Weird due to the lower levels of the spells. And... well... if picking them, then you are sacrificing other important capabilities of mages (and they would still be very limited in the number of uses).

Dev crit is effectively 1 instant-death-roll/round. A single normal epic level rest period of 30 minutes, one can at least assume that 20 of those minutes are in combat. That would give an estimation of 200 instant-death-rolls/rest period... with a DC on par, if not (much - if the user haven't spent 2 normal feats and 1 epic feat on spell focus for that school) better, than wail/weird.

WMs are already increadible monsters in combat [damage wise]. Even without dev crit, they are the ones capable of dealing superior amounts of damage each round. It's a build matter, though... that's true.

Now... if dev crit was working like the Quivering Palm and being limited to once/day, then I wouldn't mind decreasing the restrictions to probably even 18 in str.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Hold the phone here chief. It's a guaranteed threat for a critical. If the critter has AC 300, you'll only force it to save vs. death on 20's.

To my understanding, (though the Bioware engine may make a liar of me on this,) you nail the Crit if you Threaten in both the initial roll and the confirming roll.

E.g. a normal Rapier threatens on 18-20. You'd absolutely hit (and, thusly, score the crit) if you rolled Threat Roll: 19 + x = Y (Confirm: 18 + x = Z).

[s0ulz]

To my understanding, (though the Bioware engine may make a liar of me on this,) you nail the Crit if you Threaten in both the initial roll and the confirming roll.

E.g. a normal Rapier threatens on 18-20. You'd absolutely hit (and, thusly, score the crit) if you rolled Threat Roll: 19 + x = Y (Confirm: 18 + x = Z).

You critical hit following this pattern:

1. When an attack roll is successful (hits) and within the threat range, a threat roll is made.

2. If the threat roll succeeds (hits the target = surpasses AC or is a 20), the hit is critical, and damage is rolled a number of times equal to the multiplier.

So your reasoning was good in your example, just the AC 300 was pushing it

You can't crit what you can't hit...

[Weeblie]

To my understanding, (though the Bioware engine may make a liar of me on this,) you nail the Crit if you Threaten in both the initial roll and the confirming roll.

E.g. a normal Rapier threatens on 18-20. You'd absolutely hit (and, thusly, score the crit) if you rolled Threat Roll: 19 + x = Y (Confirm: 18 + x = Z).

That should be a negative, judging by experience. Weapon masters with 50% threat range do not tend to have a guaranteed 1 in 4 chance to hit against super high AC monsters.

Side Note: To further comment on my comments about instant death spells. Well... while they are of weaker power, I still don't find them reasonable, heh. I hate all sort of instant death stuff and think all should be ripped out.

[akata]

I believe that strength were upped to 30 to balance out dev. Crit in Layonare, while your right in that yes there are instants death spells then they're not unlimited and if you wish to reach a dc as high as dev.crit would be, then you need to focus your character towards that, just like you need to use feats to gain strength enough for dev. crit

Dev.crit works like Quivering palm???

Dc for dev. Crit 10+ half character lvl + str modifier
Dc for Quivering palm 10+half MONK lvl + wisdom modifier

That is a pretty large difference, if you limited dev. Crit to the epic class it was giving in then you could talk about lowering the str requirement  

IMO dev.crit requirement should stay as 30 but it could be nice to make a version of it (str 25) available for epic fighters only ( fighter lvl 21) a class that serious are lacking behind in power/balance compared to the other melee classes  

As for adding it due to the text of on a epic weapons master

"The weapon master's bond with his weapon of choice becomes stronger
and devastatingly effective as he becomes the epic weapon master."

The text cover the continuing + to ab a weapon master receive.
"Epic Superior Weapon Focus"
The one feat that makes the epic weapon master truly unique in the end

[jan]

Even though I'm certain that your intentions are good Jan, you have to ponder on the timing and suggestion of all this... It looks a lot like lowering the prereqs for shortcomings of Barion. However I doubt it's the case, so on to the point.

Restricting it to WMs is definitely not a good idea. Even though I understand your reasoning behind it, it would be too restrictive. Lowering the STR prereq isn't too good an idea either, since as it is, Dev. Crit is the pinnacle of the strength focusing melee path. Just like DR and poison/disease immunity is when you go high CON. Every focus has it's good and bad sides and I think it should stay as it is. Dev. Crit is a powerful ability for those that can actually get it, so let's keep it like that.



Hold the phone here chief. It's a guaranteed threat for a critical. If the critter has AC 300, you'll only force it to save vs. death on 20's.

Of-course i'm requesting it with Barion in mind , just like every one that requests things is having either their own char or friends chars in mind .

Barion wont get ever get there though , he's lvl 28 and i doubt that he will rise even another lvl .
Mainly because i don't go out of my way to have him gather experience .
Lowering the required strength to 27 would mean he still needs 3 points in BASE strength , so that's not going to happen in a long time .

The request for lowering the str is logical though , since in other NWN games the str required is only 25 ..not 30 .

Restricting it to WM would make the WM unique and would finally deal with the " you only need 7 lvl WM , for after that he's useless "

[Filatus]

The change to dev. crit was made because it was considered equally unbalancing as dragonshape which requires 30 Wisdom.

The WM is already pretty much unique out there with the insane crits, I only know of one PC who stuck to fighter all the way into epics. People not taking further levels in WM forget the AB advantage you get which can be deadly on Layo in combination with PA and IPA.

But, to get to the point, I doubt this change will ever happen. In some PvP servers it's actually disabled, while on Layo it's still quite attainable.

30 strength while high, is still very much in the realm of possibility for an epic character. Personally, I do hope nobody ever gets there though, I don't think it has a place on Layo balance wise, much like Dragonshape.

[ycleption]

Dev.crit works like Quivering palm???

Dc for dev. Crit 10+ half character lvl + str modifier
Dc for Quivering palm 10+half MONK lvl + wisdom modifier

Just as a sidenote, Quivering palm has the additional requirement that it can only be used on creatures of lower level (and the way layo does creature levels, the green "easy" is no guarantee you can use it), and second, monks don't usually have a super high wisdom, and even at high levels wouldn't be able to get the same DC. Obviously, an epic feat should be more useful that an automatic class feat, but when you consider the heavy limitations on quivering palm, you can see why dev. crit is so powerful.

[Chongo]

Isn't happening.
 
 If you want to make a suggestion toward altering dev crit, supply an alternative such as a direct damage bonus.  I did that on my server, upped the overwhelming crit bonus and then made dev crit a big solid smack of damage, but it was just an add-on like overwhelming, albeit with more umph.  I wouldn't mind that at all, but no, I don't like it even as it is, high strength requirement or not.  I mean, all that does is ensure that we force them to go the dev DC route.  The second we get one we're going to realize we need to review the balance of it regardless.
 
 And no, you can't liken it to wail or quivering palm or weird or anything else for that matter.  Sure, wail hits mass groups in one big wham, and sure, that's powerful in it's own right.  But at best you have 9 of them to fire off in 25 minutes.  Dev crit is a likely 5 dice rolls per round.  Everything loses in the end, even if you have a junk DC (which again isn't possible given the strength requirement).  And hey man, it's a cool feat.  I'd love to have a ftr/rog/wm with a scimitar in full plate with a tower shield just popping things off with no need for rest... pretty much ever.  Or maybe that dual kukri strength-based 3 checks out of the box before you even see me SD eh?  
 
 I wouldn't mind if it were changed to bonus damage, heck, make it +2d25 sonic... still isn't going to be near to the same ballgame as swing, swing, die, cleave die, cleave swing, swing, die, cleave die, cleave die, cleave die, cleave swing....  That sort of thing doesn't work when it's on an unlimited scale like that.  Or... here's an idea.  Make it a combat action like the weaponmaster's ki strike, where it is useable let's say... one use per total character level?  And mind you, I'm not offering the labor for this and I highly doubt it'll make the grade.

[jan]

A well ...not tried is always a no

I'm not sure what damage wail / weird do , but 9 in 25 minutes will kill most that you meet in larger numbers then single swinging ever can .

If things in above posts are a bit accurate , then a high lvl needs 30 minutes to rest and from that 20 are battle situations .
Taking into account the lower lvl spells that are also available and the summons that keep off attacks , then it gives plenty off time to mass kill and rest .

*shrugs*

[jrizz]

this is a really cool feat and if you want to get it you have to build for it right from the start. A half giant fighter can get it by level 32 I think. It is out of reach for my Barb/fighter elf.

10 + 16 + 15 (buffed str to 40) = DC of 41!

Even with the lower crit range of say a great sword or axe you would be messing things up big time LOL.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

You critical hit following this pattern:

1. When an attack roll is successful (hits) and within the threat range, a threat roll is made.

2. If the threat roll succeeds (hits the target = surpasses AC or is a 20), the hit is critical, and damage is rolled a number of times equal to the multiplier.

So your reasoning was good in your example, just the AC 300 was pushing it

You can't crit what you can't hit...

Right, then... Bioware strikes again.

Amend those percentages to 2.25% and 2%, respectively... Which is still pretty awesome at 5 (or 7) attacks in a round.

Edit: Jrizz... The bonuses to stats from our subraces aren't taken into account for the purposes of feat prerequisites.

Even a half-giant (or half-orc, or half-ogre, etc) could get it at...

18 + 5 pre-epic + 3 post epic + 4 Great STR at level 32, meaning he'd have to be taking a Fighter Bonus Feat level to get it.

Edit again: Nope, you got the level right! Nevermind. (But he'd be lacking SMD, unless he grabbed Overwhelming Crit on another Fighter Bonus Feat level.)

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Your estimation is basing on that dev crit only has a str req of 18 which is quite flawed

Ummm Huh?  I just pulled some numbers...  Didn't Base it on anything...  really ust felt like posting the forumla for reference....  If a Level 30 Fighter had 30 str the DC would be 35.  10 + 30/2 (15) + 10 (30 str has a mod of 10).  Anyway...  Sure, with Magic Rings and stuff you could raise the DC over 40, but that wasn't the point of that post...  Anyway...  Enough of me...  back to ...  discussing