Skald bard songs

[Hellblazer]

Alright, Dorg suggested I post this here, even if only for reference so here it is.

Presently the skald songs doesn't go up. Meaning that the total number of songs they have doesn't go up as they get higher. This is also true for the length and strength of the songs.

Proposition: to link the skald levels into the bard levels themselves so that the songs count, length and strength augment as the character takes skald levels, as long as the skald puts points into perform. This will have the benefit of them being able to still be productive in situations where their abilities does not work.

If you think about it, a skald doesn't renounce to be a bard. he learns to channel his rage/hate/anger/violence into his songs to produce different effects. That doesn't mean that they stop being able to perform beautiful musical pieces or sing beautifully. That only means that in battle they are able to tap into their dark side, if you may, and channel it through their songs.

So basically what I'm saying is that 1 skald level = one bard level minus the spell additions. So the songs gets better, and they can sing more often.

[Acacea]

What's the downside? Especially since it's only five levels.

[lonnarin]

When I took skald after some bard levels, I did notice my bardsong bonuses did go up, at a slightly slower level than a full bard would level-for-level.  I'm pretty sure I saw that, of course when I took it first, it was the 10-level v1 of Skald.  Skald got revamped since then to the 5 lvl form, so not entirely certain if bardsong increases there.  Maybe somebody check the code to see for certain what happens in that dept now?

I really love the skald PrC for two big reasons.  1. in only 5 levels you get all of the skaldsongs that work off of bardsongs/day, which increases when you go back.  And 2. You can do a sweet split of 15 bard/5 skald that nets you 4 attacks/round before 20th.  This is a very nice feature of skald, which makes them frontline material or at the very least, decent archers.

What I personally would like to see improved in this class is to uncap certain things like the death song DC.  Recently the other mage/cleric/druid spells have been uncapped in damage and effectiveness since the latest class updates.  I don't like how my DC wail is only 21 and can only ever go up via CHA bonus alone.  If it kept stacking based on total level, for example +1 every 2 levels (not that bad a boost, since tha mage/cleric deathspells will still be better increasing at a +1 to dc/level) then I feel it would be better balanced.  Ever since the mages got the extra ooomph on their spellcaps, been a bit jealous as a bard.

The deafen/blind wails and the fear ones are spot on.  The slow one is nice at times, the Make them Bleed is a nice one for things with uber DR, sometimes the only thing that works!  I've seen Flynn take down some nasty invulnerable beasts like that shadow cloud, and Farros used it to great effect when we raided the Rofirienite High Kings tombs for the silver star dust we fetched for Milara.  

For bards, I'd like to see a few more spells.  Our spells are rather silly in combat terms, so I often stack my spell selection with RP-heavy ones like bestow/remove curse, Amplify for my guitar, confusion for my theological conversations with Lance.  Wounding Whispers works for a few rounds, and then I die from the thing that was being damaged by it.  I would suggest an upgraded summons list like rangers have so that bards can summon nice minions to soak damage, as they work well off of other units with their boosters and healing ability.  Also perhaps a few other party-boosters in the mid-range spell levels.  Sadly 3.5 and NWN2 has me spoiled for heroism.

Maybe a longer lasting ethereal visage?  1 minute/level would make that worth the slot.

That's my 2 cents on bard/skald class balance.

[Hellblazer]

Actually no lon I can assure you they don't Sil has 9 level of bard. that = to 9 songs. I took extra music so it brings it up to 13 songs. Now with her 5 skald levels.. that is still what she has, 13 songs.

And well I don't know for you Lon, don't know if you went further into the epics area. But Blind, bellow and slow doesn't work much there, if at all. The base save of the lowest foes (I guess I'll tag them that way) is just down slightly than Sil present dc, add to that the d20 they roll and well you get the picture. And from an other discussion, it's pretty obvious that they wont change how the dc is calculated.

What's the downside? Especially since it's only  five levels.

The down fall is that the spell/per day/known wont go up. Only the songs.

If you look at the undead slayer prc, it's actually the reverse that happens.

Upon reaching levels 1, 3, 6, and 9 the character gains new spells per  day as if he had also gained a level in his highest caster class (Paladin or  Cleric). However, he does not gain increased duration, effects or power.

What I'm proposing here is to reverse that so that the skalds gets more songs and their songs gets stronger and last longer, while they do not learn new spells, like they would if they had leveled as a bard.

[jadewillow]

With Skald levels, number of songs do not increase, but bard level for song does. Flynn can sing level 24 bard song (when he pumps his performance). He is Bard(19), Skald(5), SW(2). In reality, however, your not going to get your performance up high enough to take advantage of much higher. If you are a fighter bard (which you presumably are if you have Skald) all battle oriented items in game don't give performance (or very few). Level of diminishing returns on bard song is about 16 anyways.

Not to refute some of your points HB, but I feel the Skald is a great balancer for the bard class. I will agree that if you don't have many bard songs, you will be considerably strapped. One of the few classes that can do 60 points of sound damage to ever monster within range. Do that 20 times, and that's 1,200 dmg. Very few things in game have sound resistance.

Of course, I would like to see Wail go a bit higher, but I think if it were based on levels like Bellow, it would be over powered.

After having played Flynn for over three years now, his biggest weakness is low fortitude. Nothing kills you faster in Layo than a low fortitude as an epic. Sil probably has the step up here due to her Fighter classes and would do slightly better in places like the Deep as a result. We all gotta make choices I guess. C'est la vie

[lonnarin]

Yeah, I know I lost bardsongs/day, and I offset that with extra song feat.  Bardsong effectiveness is still enhanced somewhat from what I saw.

[Hellblazer]

Yeah, I know I lost bardsongs/day, and I offset  that with extra song feat.  Bardsong effectiveness is still enhanced  somewhat from what I saw.

Well it shouldn't, the only thing that affect the bard song is the total bard level vs the perform rank you have. You need both to get a stronger song.

[jadewillow]

Only thing I can tell you is what I see in game.

[Hellblazer]

I could be misinterpreting what is said on lore, but from what I understand from that, it shouldn't. But eh good if it does.

[Filatus]

The fact that skald levels improve the bard song is something that wasn't documented. I only found out about it accidentally with Hardragh when I had him wearing some stuff with perform skill. It's a definite boon for skalds that were already multiclassed before skald levels. And since the skald was made with fighter/bard or other combinations in mind, it's probably a good thing.

To also give them extra songs would be overdoing it however, since the only thing you'll lose out on is the bard spells.

[Zoogmunch]

How about giving us bards honorary level 1 rogue skills.that would help whilst running baout in a silk shirt singing yer heart out in the middle of giants.


just a thought............he he he

[RollinsCat]

won't speak to skalds as Andrew won't become one but the issue I see with bards is that there is no reason to go past twenty.  no spell advancement, and only two hp and one skill bonus up in the song.  (unless there is another table for bard spells that shows post-twenty progression which I have not seen).  

Also bard spells cap at six, so most everything you can cast is duplicated and more powerfully by any sorceror or wizard in the party.  I would love to see a few level seven, eight and nine bard specific spells - just a few, something to reach for.  unless that's what skald was designed to fix, in which case thank the Muse for duelist since humans can't be arcane archers.

Editing this for an information request; Acacea is a level twenty-seven bard.  can you enlighten me/us as to the mechanics of bard past twenty?   Do known spells increase?  Are there additional spells available?

[miltonyorkcastle]

Wait, I thought I just saw a Filatus in here..... **glances around** ... hm... must have been my imagination.

Seriosuly, though, if stuff works a certain way IG and it's not documented in LORE, please oh please post it in the LORE bugs forums with the changes and how you verified them so that we can keep LORE as accurate as possible.

[ycleption]

There is [lore]Lasting inspiration[/lore] and [lore]epic skill focus[/lore] (perform), both of which can only be taken on a bard level in epic levels.

If you play a bard, you probably are not going to be an overwhelming force by yourself... but having someone like Acacea or Hardragh in a party is an incredible plus in epic areas.

[miltonyorkcastle]

an incredible plus in epic areas

Understatement.

Ultimate party class = Bard.

[Acacea]

LORE: Bard Song

The 100 perform by bard level 30 is hard but certainly achievable and even easy if you are already under your own song... it is much more difficult but still doable with instruments and epic gear (and the right focuses of course) to get there without singing first. I would want to be either taking bard levels all the way to 40 or at least be taking my 30th by 40 to make sure that I was able to max perform. However, all that work to get the 100 perform to get what you can out of 30 bard levels is really only netting you another AC point and YAS (yet another skill), so whether or not it's worth it really kind of depends on your character goals.

I don't really pay any attention to spells except for that I have the ones that she wants to have. If you take more than the 20 levels though, you can get +5 GMW which is handy as it spares your wizard some slots... They also tweaked dirge, you can look at the update notes for all the details or just check the spells on LORE. All the cool ones are at level 3 though, and you will never get any more of those ...alas! I'd happily trade a summon 6 for a wounding whispers, which I never have room for now ...and I can't have remove curse and remove disease at the same time, arg!

The healing abilities are nice, but with relatively cheap cure crit potions available by stacks of 50, it would already be leaning towards a waste of a spell if it healed the same as the potion... but only the potions were upgraded in heal amounts, so the spell, cast by a real live person, will heal for a sad puny little amount compared to the spell in a bottle anyone can buy.

Bards also qualify for epic spells (except for the ones that are for silly reasons tagged as wizard-only and non-sorc). It is a little weird (I'm not sure how you go from 6th level to epic) but they are there.

Acacea's probably not the best example since I tend to just take things ...just to take them. In most parties the song + mass haste is going to be your real use, and a +5 GMW if you can manage it. Everything else is just flavor. That "real use" is really really useful, but it requires a certain amount of self-entertainment for lack of variety!

It's also worth mentioning that anything in the epic levels of any class does not mention potential changes or enhancements due to WL successes (or failures), so things are not always exactly as written. Acacea's bardsong adds a random extra enhancement on top of the bardsong for her level (or opens locks. Whichever).

Sorry if this is a rambly post, I do that even more at work than I do at home.

Editing this for an information request; Acacea is a level twenty-seven bard.  can you enlighten me/us as to the mechanics of bard past twenty?   Do known spells increase?  Are there additional spells available?