Suggestion for augmented soul strand loss/return

[Pen N Popper]

In this post http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/117282-put-soul-mother-rest-maybe-perhaps-2.html#post493782 Harlas challenges us to find a new idea for handling SS.  What?  You didn't expect that my crazy machinations on the topic would not make it to the forums, did you?

First, as always I come at the topic from the player perspective and their responsibility and ownership.  It is not up to the GMs to make the world fun for us, they are there to support us.  I believe that we can find a way to return the strands ourselves, IC and ingame.  With the teams support, of course.

My proposal:  The highest ranking PC in a church's organization has the ability to petition on behalf of someone to the NPC clergy for a return of a soul strand.  Ideally this PC is a WL but all must have team approval, no matter the level.

Typically, the PC wanting a SS goes and has a meeting with the ranking PC and they agree upon a charitable act or other service that must be performed.  This could be fund raising, preaching, a grind fest on the deity's traditional enemy (an orc god may require the mass slaying of dwarves), or whatever.  The GM team would review the IC submission on the forums and approve or ask for modification ICly.

The SSQ (soul strand quest) is not to take less than one RL month and it must be that PC's primary focus over that month.  A SSQ may only be undertaken once every three months (two RL months between quests).

Now this does several things:
[LIST=1]

• It adds some religious depth to the world, making the ranking clergy PC have some fame to them (whether they are or not).
• It encourages the PC to get involved in the world outside of bashing.  The SSQ will typically be a community effort.  It should never be something that can be done alone.
• It puts the power and responsibility for these things into the players' hands.

No, we don't have a kingdom system but we do have PCs that ought to be more visible and powerful in the world in a meaningful way.  I think the churches ought to step up and reclaim their souls!

[Acacea]

Kind of cool, but soul strands are the dominion of the soul mother...you wouldn't petition a deity for the return of one, but the mother herself, if I'm not mistaken...

[Pen N Popper]

Are you serious?  The reason the idea won't work is because the soul mother doesn't do deals with gods?

[Dorganath]

Acacea is correct.

[Tobias]

But doesn't the Deity the PC  (player character) worships step in and claim the last part of the PC soul so that they my travel to the deity's home plane? I believe that is how it works but I have been wrong before.


If my previous thought is true then couldn't the deity lay claim/make a deal with the soul mother on be half of the PC to reclaim more of the PC soul back?



quick edit:

I really just don't see a deity going up against the soul mother to barter for one soul when there are countless other worshippers out there unless that player has been very devoted to their deity.  but that is just my two cents.

Toby

[Dove de Dona Pheonix]

Pen N Popper I like your idea, it actually has some similar aspects to my own. Here is the idea I came up with it has a few parts: a "grand resurrection;" more non-adventuring PC run organizations; and "Epic Character Quests."

Grand Resurrection: I like the idea of getting PCs involved in this and letting them use there influence. Instead of replacing Soul Strands how changing it to the highest level member of the clergy must petition for a "grand resurrection" after the last soul strand is lost. Then the hero can be returned to life but with only say 3 soul strands. Moreover the hero's brush with the soul mother would leave them without any will to continue to adventure. So what would these characters do?

Retirement: They could become powerful leaders of world organizations. They could become the heads of trading guilds or academes. The could offer training and help to lower level PC's, direct them on quests to do and help them find and make the equipment they need. And of course for clerics the higest level cleric of a faith would be able to petition for others "grand resurrection." These PCs would no longer adventure but there is still a wealth of RP options out there, which is after all the point of a PW.

Quests: These character might no longer seek adventure but that doesn't mean adventure might not find them. GM's could still run epic quests for these characters. For instance lets say that a wizard is nicely settled in a town, building magic devices for younger adventures and taking an apprentice or too. Then some evil force decides to bring in an army to take over the town. Well the wizard can't have that so he sends messages out to some of his old adventuring friends and they wipe out the army. Then the wizard returns to his peaceful life. These characters could be brushed off every now and again to complete a quest but it would have to be a GM quest not just running around getting sticks from kabolds.

Epic Character Quests: Finally we need a way for characters to make a final impact before they are permanently put out to pasture. An Epic Character Quest would be the characters final CDQ. In the end they might be forced to sacrifice themselves, or it so scar them that after destroying the bad guy, (or good guy as the case may be) they become a hermit never to be seen again. Whatever happens the character would stop being a PC at the end of the quest but it would not just be forgotten. These quests should be on an epic scale that has some impact on the world (even if it is just a minor impact) and one last thing. A Library of Epic Heroes should be created where everyone who finished an Epic Character Quest would have a biography of that character detailing its finer accomplishments. This could be put someplace like Hempstead where people could go and read the books. Leaving a lasting impression for these characters.

This way there would be a way to "win" the game, similar to ascension in PnP D&D, and we don't end with hordes of epic level characters. Death would still mean something, but PCs that died wouldn't just disappear either so I think Players would be happy.

[EdTheKet]

Acacea is correct.

Not entirely, but correct enough I'll explain death more in detail in the new handbook

[Dorganath]

Well I didn't want to give too much away, Ed.

[Acacea]

All the winking is making me nauseous... *Shifty.* I feel like I'm watching secret handshakes. Hehe.

[darkstorme]

*stretches*
*yawns*
*taps his nose three times*

[Pen N Popper]

Instead of saying, "No, it can't be done," could someone on the team perhaps make some suggestions on how it could be done ICly then?  

So the churches, and the gods they work on behalf of, have no influence to wield on behalf of their followers.  Seems odd but I can buy it.

There was talk in the past of a "strand reattachment" procedure.  What was the IC premise behind that?  Could it be shaped into a non-scripted player-driven solution?

To me the WLs and other should-be-WLs have far too little influence on the world.  I know this diverges from my initial post a bit but it is all related.  Put some responsibility and true power into the veteran players' hands in these waning days of NWN.  You, the project team, have a year to experiment creatively with your captive audience.

Shutting up now.    I know my ideas are often unrealistic for this setting.  I look forward to seeing what is to come.

[Dorganath]

To fully answer your question about an IC premise for reattaching Soul Strands would involve a discussion about the nature of the Soul Mother and the new organization of the planes. As Ed said, he'll clarify some things in the upcoming handbook release, but not until then.  It may suffice to say that at the point of permanent death, one's deity will intervene on behalf of one's soul but not on the strands themselves that tie one's soul to one's life.

I agree with your sentiment regarding WLs, but intervening in matters of Soul Strands is quite beyond the power or influence of a WL.

[jrizz]

*points up at Pen's post* his and every suggestion on this topic get shut down for one reason or another (due to how the world works and such). So it begs a question: Even if an idea comes up that is workable will it be done?

[Dorganath]

I really don't want to "shut down" this idea.  Despite how it may appear, I admire PenNPopper's creativity and enthusiasm.

However, this is one of those things that just isn't necessarily open to a creative work-around. This suggestion, and likely most others, really come into conflict with the nature of the Soul Mother, her methods and her purpose. It's difficult to explain why given the limits that Ed wants to enforce on this right now, so I know this may be frustrating for everyone.

There is a concept for a system of strand reattachment, but it did not get implemented yet.  If I had to guess, the only "workaround" to having a system would be for it to be done manually, meaning with GM intervention.

I'm sorry, I really am that's really all I can say.

As for whether a workable solution will be done if it comes up...well, I guess that depends on whether or not it happens to line up with what has been conceived for the Soul Mother, etc.

[jrizz]

Perhaps this should wait for the handbook to come out. Then we will all have a much better understanding of the concepts behind the SM. With that info we can then propose ideas that do fit with the concept.

[Acacea]

I agree on the WLs bit too, it's one of my biggest rants, really. The lack of actual influence/information given to any of them when it comes down to it.

I don't really like playing Wet Blanket as much as it is usually thought, I'm just trying to be realistic here. What's the point of going "yeah, cool man, let's do it tomorrow!" if facts say it's honestly not going to be the case? That's practically deceptive on my part, just wiggling in agreement to get good points instead of the truth.

Another hated hit of honesty that Dorg didn't address so I hope is not final otherwise - when is this going to be done? Did L not say the project team was going to be disbanded? Who is going to implement these suggestions if it doesn't go into the ominously labeled "Final Update?"

Frankly I would guess "no." to jrizz's question on if a workable solution would be implemented. For two reasons - one that seems obvious, the fact that they already HAD a system they wanted that just didn't make it in, so they don't seem to actually need another - but more importantly, number two, nothing is going to be implemented at all past next update.

Someone please shut ME down if this reality check is inaccurate, as I would leap with joy for that to be the case, but if there will be no more updates then there will be no more suggestion implementations; no matter how fantastic and thorough the idea, if all the module handlers are taken off of NWN, they will not be done. Sorry. They simply cannot afford to split their efforts between their big project and NWN - they have a great team for this server, but when you take it into the big game-making world, its kind of a tadpole-ocean scenario at first glance. They're going to get eaten if they're not all concentrating on the task. And so they are all getting pulled towards it - you can't stretch to both or both are going to drown.

Not like I enjoy saying it. I think NWN has a lot of life to it left, and that it's only dying because the builders are picking up and leaving according to a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's still content, still players, just builders are wandering away for fear it will die, so it will. Not really Layo, just the jumping ship a little too early in general.

I would love for it to keep updating, tilesets updated when they are fixed, go into 1.69 if its released in Layonara's lifetime, be able to allow all those player projects to become reality in game, let my character go WL and remodel her house, hey! Plus I have a pretty constant stream of things I would change if I could or ideas to do something differently, or new projects...ask Dorg, he gets "what if we could do this!" spam all the time.

The announcement remains in stark contrast, however.

The Project Team, however, will no longer update or work on NwN and indeed will likely be dismantled within a month or two, at least the few that still remain and are somewhat active.

Sorry. My take on it was that there was a pretty massively cool update coming out, and that everyone should chin up, look forward to it, and then ride the last update wave until the lights go out, enjoying the things that brought you here. Then onwards to the new vision sunrise and all that, which frankly will not ever get here if the team is repeatedly pulled back to NWN, which has a finite lifespan even if all is squeezed from it longer than everyone thinks it can be. Look at all the suggestions that are already being made for the one none of us have been told anything about yet... there's a long way to go.

So no. I don't think it will happen if it does not happen in the next update.

[Pen N Popper]

My suggestion involves zero coding/scripting/module updates.  It is simply done by the players, approved on the forums by GMs, and then a database update to remove (or not) a strand.

Why does everything have to be so complicated?  What happened to good old pen & paper (and database spreadsheets :-)?

*grumbles and remembers to keep on shutting up*

[jrizz]

Some where in this thread someone said come up with a better way and it will be looked at so here are my two ways. Both keep the SS system just with small changes.

1. Soul strength grows with the PC.
At 4th level you get 4 SS then you earn 1 every 2 levels. That will be a total of 12 by 20th level. Keep SMD at 21st level and have the earning go to one every three levels after 21. This method keeps the SS loss system as is and still keeps your PC afraid of death. But there will no longer be the hopelessness of "only one SS left". There will always be the hope that you can make it to the next time you can earn one. Also this method shows that the PC grows in soul strength as she gains in experience instead of getting weaker in soul. There are other reasons why this is a good way to go but I dont need to spell them all out. I could give you the pseudo code for this but I am sure you can see how easy it would be to implement.

2. Death means loss of play time.
In this method when you die and respawn you go right to the eye of the storm and you cannot enter the world again for 24 hours (could make it 30 so that it would really mean missing a lot) RT. With that there is no chance of SS loss. If you chose to wait for a RD or R spell then you risk the loss of a SS (resurrect would have the current % chance and RD would have some modifier so that the risk was higher). This way you would have to let your party know before setting out if you wish to be "helped" by a cleric if you die.

Fire away

[jrizz]

Frankly I would guess "no." to jrizz's question on if a workable solution would be implemented. For two reasons - one that seems obvious, the fact that they already HAD a system they wanted that just didn't make it in, so they don't seem to actually need another - but more importantly, number two, nothing is going to be implemented at all past next update.

The announcement remains in stark contrast, however.

The Project Team, however, will no longer update or work on NwN and indeed will likely be dismantled within a month or two, at least the few that still remain and are somewhat active.

So no. I don't think it will happen if it does not happen in the next update.

Life is full of possibilities I for one can see a few ways that Layo NWN stays alive.

[Dorganath]

My suggestion involves zero coding/scripting/module updates.  It is simply done by the players, approved on the forums by GMs, and then a database update to remove (or not) a strand.

Why does everything have to be so complicated?  What happened to good old pen & paper (and database spreadsheets :-)?

*grumbles and remembers to keep on shutting up*

It unfortunately has nothing to do with complexity, scripting or who approves what.  It has to do with the fact that this idea, while interesting, engaging and relatively "hands off", is simply not in line with how the Soul Mother operates. And by that I mean the Soul Mother as an entity, not her mechanical representation as an unforgiving d100 roll upon death.

She's more than just some scripted system, but until Ed decides to release the relevant lore updates regarding her, I simply cannot explain this to you any other way.