Suggestion to remove potential unbalancing spells

[Blackguy]

I'd like to suggetc we remove or atleast tone down two spells that have the effet of being able to instantly killing a entire spawn.
 
 Wail of the Banshee
 
 Weird
 
 Both of these spells brings unbalance to the world, and its potential the best way for mages to solo on the East Server. I know there are other ways, but these two yields minimum risk, without using bugs and creatures to fight spawns.
 
 What I would suggest is to remove these Level 9 spells and either remove them from the game entirely, move them over like Time Stop was, and make them a Epic Spell, with a Use/Day, or to tone them down, like perhaps half the DC that is involved for creatures to save with.
 
 On a side note, I'd like to ask our fellow clerics to make a similar thread with what spells, that potential is causing Clerics to solo East on as low levels as 14-15. And perhaps come up with an idea how to combat this.

[hawklen]

I'd like to suggetc we remove or atleast tone down two spells that have the effet of being able to instantly killing a entire spawn.
 
 Wail of the Banshee
 
 Weird
 
 Both of these spells brings unbalance to the world, and its potential the best way for mages to solo on the East Server. I know there are other ways, but these two yields minimum risk, without using bugs and creatures to fight spawns.
 
 What I would suggest is to remove these Level 9 spells and either remove them from the game entirely, move them over like Time Stop was, and make them a Epic Spell, with a Use/Day, or to tone them down, like perhaps half the DC that is involved for creatures to save with.
 
 On a side note, I'd like to ask our fellow clerics to make a similar thread with what spells, that potential is causing Clerics to solo East on as low levels as 14-15. And perhaps come up with an idea how to combat this.

For clerics, at level 20, I have problems alone on east. I need a group.
Its probably, because I have no spell focus or spell penetration, I dont know. But I definitly couldnt solo east at level14-15. I Don't think anyone could, but thats just me.

As for wail, I have yet to see it kill an entire spawn, maybe low CR spawns, but it normally kills a few, stuns the rest, or 80-90%. This is just remembering from see Tegan cast it. I havent seen weird too much, so I cant comment on it.

Now, don't get me started on Vorax summons *mutters something a bout a dwarf with 400+hp and insane AC*

[osxmallard]

I don't think it is possible for a cleric to solo East at 14-15.  First of all - a player shouldn't be on East until level 17.

IMO, the only cleric spell that would make soloing areas on East possible (and I play a cleric that couldn't solo anything on West), Implosion, has already been changed to be target vice AOE.  

You could also make wail and weird target vice AOE -- but then they are just amped up versions of Phantasmal Killer.  You could make wail and weird effect all creatures (including party members) -- that might be the most fair method.

Are there times when I am playing a fighter that I get sick of seeing wail and weird 'overused'?  Yep.  But removing wail and weird entirely and making them epic spells will seriously dampen mages.

Instead of removing/damping 2 spells, let's address the root problem instead of putting bandaids on it -- GM's should smack mages that are observed soloing areas on East since these are the classes that are mainly accomplishing this feat.  And that should go for all people actually gaining XP by killing things on East, not just transiting, etc.  (Hate to get smacked just cruising from a log off point back to Arnax desperately avoiding all encounters on the way )

[Blackguy]

I dont wanna discuss the sound of the wording, but when I say kill entire spawns, I means that its capable of that. 80-90% kill rate, without any chance of the monster to hit back is in my opion overpowered.

And with the cleric thing, maybee 13-14 was abit low, but 16 and up till around 20 should still not be possible to solo and gain insane amounts of xp on east. This goes for mages aswell. And I didnt mean entire east of course, but the you know the monster that are easy to pick off and give huge XP advantages in the area around 16-20.

I think that removing these or lessen their effect will have a healthy effect on mages, and on how they deal with working as a group. I play a mage myself, and I can see the fun in actually letting the warrior and rogues in my group actually doing the killing.

[LynnJuniper]

Why not make them so that it would take Epic Spell Focus Necromancy to cast Wail and Epic Spell Focus Illusion to cast Weird. As such I realize there should be a special spell for all "Focusers" So the Epic Spell feat may be a better idea.

That said, I don't think this should happen. I've heard rumors of lots of spells being "nerfed" before because of this and personally I don't think it fair for spells to be nerfed because a few people want to solo high level areas alone for loot and XP.

[Blackguy]

In this case its not only about mages soloing and a select few, but these spells are the backbone of every caster out there, and there should be more to casters than just to memorize 7 wail or 7 weird and cast them each time they meet a spawn, solo or groupwise.

[mumbles]

*laughs a little* At level 24 voon cant solo East server not that i try , nor would i but , purly and simply because it just not a place to go alone and there much more enjoyment in going in a group ...

East also being that you need a well balanced group working together to servive i feel personally .

As for over powered blessings the only one i feel could maybe be included is Gate .. But then you have to waste a feat and take Eishew3 which for a cleric is rather usless anyways Or  Pay 600 trues per time you want to use the blessing

[LynnJuniper]

In this case its not only about mages soloing and a select few, but these spells are the backbone of every caster out there, and there should be more to casters than just to memorize 7 wail or 7 weird and cast them each time they meet a spawn, solo or groupwise.

Casters are what one makes of them. If there's not more to casters than casting 7 wails/weirds, then people aren't playing them to the best of their ability and its ultimately on them.

I mean, this is on par with requesting the removal of the Bigby spells as well, seeing as they're "Backbone" too.

Why not remove all protections?

The list can go on...

Spells have already been overhauled and really don't need anymore (in my opinion). Maybe if the other spells were made more beneficial to use, then you would see some diversity.

and then we get to my rant on focuses and specialization and about how wizards should do what they're focused in that I won't go into in full here.

----

I also believe 8bits seminar on mages went over how to use mages correctly, effectively , and interestingly.

[MJZ]

That said, I don't think this should happen. I've heard rumors of lots of spells being "nerfed" before because of this and personally I don't think it fair for spells to be nerfed because a few people want to solo high level areas alone for loot and XP.

Thank you. In another thread somewhere, Guardian mentioned that anything which can be exploited, will be, by someone, at some point. He also said that he couldn't stand seeing things being denied to the majority, just because a minority abuses it. I must agree here.

I've heard stories of GMs intervening when they noticed a character taking unfair advantage of such things - but I say the spells should stay. If you're an incredibly powerful spellcaster or cleric to your god, it makes sense to me that you should have an incredibly powerful spell at your disposal. Plus, not all monsters are susceptible to Weird and Banshee.

[hawklen]

*grins*

So, how did Lin'da solo east again? *whistles and walks away*

Discuss. *gestures, looks around and runs, very fast*

[Blackguy]

Casters are what one makes of them. If there's not more to casters than casting 7 wails/weirds, then people aren't playing them to the best of their ability and its ultimately on them.

If this is true, then I can't see the need to keep the spells, if mages truly play so diversely.

Getting them up there with Timestop and other epic spells, would not be a hinderance to mages, since they already play and use others spells than those listed.

Or did I misunderstand something?

[Blackguy]

*grins*

So, how did Lin'da solo east again? *whistles and walks away*

Discuss. *gestures, looks around and runs, very fast*

This is not to turn things personal, but this is a good example. I heard that you could make 50,000xp in a couple of hours, that suggested to me that you could do this alone.

I dont know of any other class besides mages that can do that. Thus the need to bring them on par with the other classes, which they are not.

[Kindo]

If this is true, then I can't see the need to keep the spells, if mages truly play so diversely.

Ehm, correct me if I'm wrong, but lowering the amount of different spells available... doesn't that also lower the amount of diversity? Removing spells just because people don't use them makes no sense.

So, how did Lin'da solo east again?

Heh.

[LynnJuniper]

Then why take out the spells that are both in the NWN version and in PnP Gaming? Timestop I can see the reason for. These, are not epic spells, they are spells that very powerful casters should be able to cast, and have been able to cast before us.
 
 Why punish spells that are used when there is little to no reason for us to choose otherwise.
 
 Alternatively: Why punish spells that don't need to be there.
 
 You want to go along with your reply to me and remove all the spells not used. then you may as well, if you're following your logic. Take out most of the spells in existance as it is.
 
 That said: I think that the opposite of this needs to happen
 
 PnP Had SO Many Spells that were taken out of the NWN version because they did not make sense in the RP world. Why not balance some of these super powerful damage/protection spells (BEcause lets face it, those are the only ones in NWN) With putting in more RP spells.
 
 I still stand by my original position. I do not think these spells need to be changed and/or removed. Finally: Leanthar already stated on many occasions that these spells (Weird in particular) will not be further changed.
 
 So can we just leave it at that?

[Blackguy]

I dont agree with Leanthars view of the spell weird, but this is not my call to decide, his world his rules, so I live by them. But I can still suggest my opion. And If spells are not used, then its because there is simply no use for them, since Weird and Wail are so overpowering and a "I win button". Limiting them to Epic spells would make sure that their power and mystique is kept still. And besides, no other spells, Epic nor normal gives a mage such power as those two.

[LynnJuniper]

I can see if there was just one of these spells. As level 9th spells there shouldn't be any other that give off these power. That said:
 
 Cloud Kill
 Circle of Death
 Power Word Kill
 Phantasmal Killer
 
 They're all leading up to these. Their lesser forms exist, they're just replaced by bigger better versions. Spell progression should happen..
 
 I've used Weird.
 
 You've Used Weird.
 
 I could also ask you why you did not suggest this sooner if it was a big issue?
 
 To take them out now would not be fair. It would decrease the chances of those coming after us of getting the benefits we have. That in addition to my other arguments is the last Im going to say on this matter.

[orth]

This is going to lead into the same kind of argument we've had over and over again.  We need to start nerfing the players, not the spells.  

Spell selection might get reexamined if we get around to it and are not too lazy about things.

With that said Blackguy, I really think you are not in the position to suggest this "nerfing" now that you are level 29.  These spells were extensively used by Lin'da in every excursion I recall.  We would have to rest every time they ran out.

I'm going to close this, it's not going to lead to anything new and is just getting too personal.  You can always PM me if you disagree with this and I will reconsider.

[Eight-Bit]

It personally doesn't bug me. They're powerful spells but everything on Layonara doesn't need to be gimped in order to work. That's just my opinion.

[orth]

Just because I think it's important to how Blackguy feels about these spells I wanted to make a note that he approached me privately and even offered to be demoted to Level 20 if these spells were reconsidered.  

He wanted to stress how it was more important to see world balance over his character's powers.  He used what he had available to him with these spells, he played a lot (not soloing) and quested a lot.  This will always add up to rapid progression and he should not be persecuted for that.

-orth