True Sight vs Rogues

[Acacea]

I like Filatus' train of thought better than the other. There are too many edits and balance changes in replacing the basic TS for it to be a realistic request of Dorg, by his own reply... If the problem is that rogue or assassin abilities all* rely too much on their stealth, which is "broken" by TS, perhaps some other ability that doesn't would give it a boost without having to make a hundred other edits. Whether it is taking out of combat or just pure damage, something given to one class rather than taken from several and countless NPCs seems more in the realm of possibility.



Maybe change up the otherwise pointless dirty fighting and give it to rogues or something, or have it as a rogue feat. We have some** lame rogue feats anyway, could always use something besides Improved Sneak XIII. It really is completely useless anyway... I don't know. Seems like it might be a more productive avenue for brainstorming, anyway.



*all is used incredibly loosely here

**In addition to some required awesome ones

[Dorganath]

   

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Example: My rogue/assasin, level 20 was stunned by colour spray  from the Red Light Goblin Shaman just the other day.

Gotta love the low Will saves of the rogue class!  Hehe!



But seriously, I sympathize completely.  My main character generally  gets torn to pieces fighting things of his "range".  In part it's  because I made most of my build decisions for RP reasons, rather than  what's going to help me have the strongest character.



The issue really isn't that it's "too hard" but that it's a massive undertaking that would require some pretty fundamental design changes. If NWN Layo was being designed today, this would be trivial.  If we could change the way the True Seeing effect (not the spell) worked, then this would be trivial, or nearly so. If it were just as simple as editing the spell, then there would be some serious potential.



But we aren't, we can't and it isn't.



The fact is, it's a huge job. The problem is even less in how to "fix" True Seeing or with what we would substitute it (i.e. See Invis + Spot bonus) and is more the task of applying those changes to every thing Going through our over 2300 custom creatures and any skins and miscellaneous equipment they may have, and then go through over 1200 areas for any creatures that are placed to swap out any True Seeing properties with its replacement.

   

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In any pvp the first response of the  opposing player is TS because no matter what a rogue does they can be  seen. If that's the case then surely it's worth doing something about  it?

If that's a persistent irritant, then maybe try talking to the other player and saying "Hey, how about a different tactic, because that's pretty boring."



Or perhaps if they pull out TS, why not pull out Dispel in some form?  Does your character have enough UMD to attempt that? I suppose it matters if you're going against a caster or not, but if you are, then why not toss out some ranged attacks and possibly disrupt the caster? Granted, I don't know your build, so I'm just guessing here.



On the flip side of the coin, if a rogue in a PvP situation can take full advantage of stealth (i.e. no True Seeing), then by your own admission, there can be huge amounts of damage dealt in a short amount of time, tipping the advantage firmly toward the rogue.  In the Rogue vs. Caster scenario, your 55-75 damage in a single strike could eat up all or most of that caster's Hit Points.  It's really not "fair" for a rogue's opponent to use True Seeing, but then it's really not "fair" for a rogue to use stealth.  If HiPS is in the picture, it's even more unbalanced.



We also have to look at the idea that PvP and adventuring are really two different sorts of situations, and the solution that Akata mentioned from another server would work well in a PvP situation, but it would not really be all that effective "out in the wild" because those creatures tend to be of static builds.  Higher-CR creatures may well have enough skill points to overcome your stealth, and you're pretty much in the same situation.



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Having said all this, it's quite possible that there are a bunch of creatures out there which probably don't need to have True Seeing. It's possible some of these were designed as such to keep the solo mage from sneaking in behind his summon while invisible. Maybe that was overkill. I don't know.  If you want to bring up some locations you think need to be reviewed, please do. I'll not promise to change, but I will look.



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I'm hoping against hope that this does not turn into another "Balance of Rogues" thread or "Roges vs. {some class here}" thread.  We have enough of those already.

[Unknown User]

I really like the idea of making dirty fighting actually useful. With such a cool name it's very disappointing.



What about this, you can use dirty fighting for it, but you'd have to change the requirements and the effect.



The rogue sacrifices all other attacks in the round and attempts to cut the creature right above the eyes and impair the creature's vision as blood will stream down into its eyes.



You'd make a single attack in a round like with dirty fighting, but instead of the 1d4 bonus damage you get a blinding effect, if the creature fails a reflex save (DC = 10 + PC's dex bonus).



Requirements would be epic assassin (11), or rogue (20 to 30-ish). Sadly the pure rogue lvl requirement needs to be very high for balance in respect to multi-classing. Also, it shouldn't be working on creatures with crit immunity, but I'm not sure how that is done with abilities like crippling strike. (think those are hard-coded)



EDIT: Despite of Dorg putting things in perspective while I was typing, I still like the idea.

[Unknown User]

   

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Originally Posted by Filatus                                           An alternative might be giving pure rogues some kind of ability which has a dex based DC. Some sort of effect that takes the creature who is hit and fails the dc, out of combat for one round so they can get their sneak attacks. Just brainstorming at this point.

Heck that sounds actually good. What could maybe be done, not sure. is if the initiative check is failed by the npc, you get a an effect that might blind for a round the npc when fighting a rogue or sd. Also if there is a tumble check that is needed rolled (not sure if there is other reason why a tumble check is rolled in combat, but if the pc moves) again that effect could be made or anything similar that could give at least 1 or 2 sneak attack in that round.

[Dezza]

Dorg quote: Or perhaps if they pull out TS, why not pull out Dispel in some form? Does your character have enough UMD to attempt that? I suppose it matters if you're going against a caster or not, but if you are, then why not toss out some ranged attacks and possibly disrupt the caster? Granted, I don't know your build, so I'm just guessing here.



// Actually I've worked out Silence is helpful to cast on myself and move next to them so they cannot cast! So I am trying!



Pankoki quote:

ALTERNATIVELY! You can follow the age old strategy for successful roguerizing:



Step 1: Find a tank

Step 2: Stab

Step 3: Profit



*shrugs* Some classes are not meant to solo.



// Love to do that, but when I log in and spend 3.5 hours on the server alone, due to my timezone, its a bit hard.

[Makashi]

I played on a pvp server for a while, like Akata stated True sight gave a bonus to spot checks, it meant if some one wanted to sneak, they needed a decent number of skill points in hide.



The server i previously GM'd on ended up changing the True sight spell to ultravision with again, a spot bonus, but also granted immunity to illusion spells, would have been nice to see how it balanced out - but sadly a bug meant illusion spells still worked. (though probably ended up being for the best, as again True sight could have been too powerful with the final immunity).



None the less - both servers version of true sight, in my opinion, is fairer than the standard bioware one, True Seeing should not mean a character with 0 spot can see a rogue with over 60 hide. An investment into that many skill points is completely nullified. I don't see why vital skill points spent like that should be so easily countered.



Some of you probably sit there thinking, 'yeah, but rogues get stuff like open locks, and disarming trap skills.'

You're right, but most mages have that ability too with a stupid summon called the pixie.



I don't see why mages should be able to travel on their lonesome, and be able to virtually access any area. Where as a rogue, trained all of their life to not get caught, -will- get caught/seen, by some one, with 0 points in spot.



If thats not unbalanced, I don't know what





In response to Dorg's statement about asking players to use other tactics, thats great and everything, until true seeing does get cast, and it will be, the mage doesn't have anything else to attempt at countering a rogue sneaking up on them they need TS to provide something to help, but not simply 'here you go, godvision' a bonus to spot would suffice.



Like Dezza has stated, some days I log on, and theres nothing to do on my own at level 32 besides bashing giants in the great forest, it's all G'ork can manage, and I expect rogues of the same level, will struggle far more than G'ork does.



These days if I wander about I am lucky to bump into people, and relieved if I do, I hate mindlessly bashing giants in the great forest, but thats all I can do on my own, and it's not overly rewarding.



Non magic chars simply need a few more places to go to. That they could potentially do on their own, for the sake of doing something other than bashing giants in the GF which is still abused, even more so since the changes in the thunderpeaks.

[Dorganath]

Psst!  Makashi...

   

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Originally Posted by Dorganath                                           I'm hoping against hope that this does not turn into another "Balance of  Rogues" thread or "Roges vs. {some class here}" thread.  We have enough  of those already.

*winks*



Seriously though (and to repeat myself a different way), I sympathize, but again, there are core design-level issues at work here. It's not just a matter of changing a spell. I guess I'm just not making myself clear on this, but I don't know how else to say it.

   

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I don't see why mages should be able to travel on their lonesome, and be able to virtually access any area. Where as a rogue, trained all of their life to not get caught, -will- get caught/seen, by some one, with 0 points in spot. If thats not unbalanced, I don't know what

Well remember that anywhere a rogue will be seen by True Seeing, a mage will be seen as well.  Also, a lot of creatures who are casters will spawn in with See Invisibility active often enough, though I don't believe they ever spawn in with True Seeing...and if they do, it's rare.



Once again, in concept, I agree that the True Seeing effect is too powerful, but then so is Stealth in the way they have been implemented by Bioware. The way Stealth works now, it's really hiding in plain sight.  The only practical difference between it and HiPS is that HiPS lets you hide in combat.  I've seen rogues hide in the middle of an open road.  I've seen rogues standing around in the open but under Stealth. Non-HiPS Stealth is not some magical disappearing act, but that's how Bioware made it and how it's used...and it's also why True Seeing works against it.



For better or worse, Layonara was designed and balanced upon these (and other) mechanics.  For what it's worth, I don't agree with casters hiding behind a summons in order to solo, and I don't agree with people using the Pixie familiar as a "pocket Rogue" either.

[Makashi]

   

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Originally Posted by Dorganath                                           Well remember that anywhere a rogue will be seen by True Seeing, a mage will be seen as well.

True, until they cast greater sanctuary, or use GS to get out of a lost battle.



What I've suggested many times now, is to implement a few simple areas, or to change a few so that they are suited for a rogue/non-magic wielder. Some where an epic level can log on, with a restricted amount of time, and doing something worth actually doing.



I'm fed up of the Great Forest, And I loved when I could travel with G'ork, Gravas, Goldwin, Hardragh up the peaks, and just enjoy a different challenge, be it for 30mins, an 1hour, or more if I had time.



Currently, this is one of the areas that could possible be changed, I like how it is now due to it being a challenge, but it's so under used, it's not worth the changes.



Nuking the GF of giants didn't deter people, it made them spend more hours bashing giants there. Yes, it slowed the mages down by about....half the exp from a spawn.



My personal request, and suggestion to make things more enjoyable for epic rogues etc, a couple of extra areas that can be accessed without spending 3 hours trying to reach said area. Something that is a challenge, but not impossible to solo.



Perhaps even a dead magic zone where a rogue has to make a very good check to get past a door/entrance to reach said area. (i think DMZ areas stop summons? I think? therefore would prevent pixies gaining access )





If theres a rogue out there without magic and they want to prove my point invalid, please do, I'd love to know where you're going over epic levels so I can go too (aslong as it's not the Great Forest).



@ Dorg

I wasn't really arguing over balancing rogues vs casters, I simply stated a couple of ways true seeing is used on other servers I've played on,

and I think my point was misunderstood, I didn't mean to come accross as wanting the class/spell in question specifically to be altered, but to contradict your point about this not being a balancing of rogues thread. Why not? thats whats causing the issue, at the moment, they cannot solo anywhere over epic levels, that -is- a real balance issue when I've seen mages able to solo to emeralds, and these poor rogues still take a day and a half to take down a giant on the Great Forest, if they try it head on.

[Dorganath]

   

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Originally Posted by Makashi                                           @ Dorg I wasn't really arguing over balancing rogues vs casters, I simply stated a couple of ways true seeing is used on other servers I've played on, and I think my point was misunderstood, I didn't mean to come accross as wanting the class/spell in question specifically to be altered, but to contradict your point about this not being a balancing of rogues thread. Why not? thats whats causing the issue, at the moment, they cannot solo anywhere over epic levels, that -is- a real balance issue when I've seen mages able to solo to emeralds, and these poor rogues still take a day and a half to take down a giant on the Great Forest, if they try it head on.

You saw my *winks* right?



On mages soloing Emeralds...yeah, I disagree with them doing that too and often enough through the use of G. Sanc. to get down there or near there anyway.  In general, I loathe the fact that G. Sanc. is used so often as an "I win" button by casters and non-casters alike, and I am personally somewhat happy that it's buggy, which I have seen in adventuring situations and GM-driven situations.



Yep...I said it.  I'm kind of happy that G. Sanc. is buggy. I think it's been over-used and over-abused. But as much as I disagree with its misuse, I also disagree with its removal.

[Makashi]

It's also due to the number of epics thats are on in the same timezone, for me, I find it near impossible to log on and go on a random trip with people unless I put something on the calendar (which does work out successfully!), but don't you think there should be somewhere a single character/group of epic non-casters to go?