True Sight vs Rogues

[Dezza]

Okay, I've mulled over this for some time, I've read many of the prior discussions about this spell and I know its been discussed to death but.......



Rogues struggle at the best of times at higher levels and with the creatures on layonara once you hit a certain level and go to many areas most magic using creatures that spawn seem to have True Sight as a stock standard spawn spell.



True Sight, due to nwn mechanics is almost 100% undefeatable in a sense that for a rogue character or character with HIPS it can see them around corners as well and once a target locks onto the character you have no chance to avoid them. (Yes I know creatures need to have line of sight for them to lock on, but its amazing how many times they lock on without that line of sight)



Ideally True Sight would not allow creatures to see through walls or around corners. Thus a rogue could actually make use of their sneaking and hiding abilities regardless of a person using True Sight and if they approached them from behind true sight would still not allow them to be seen in this sense.



I know we cannot alter the spell due to nvn mechanics but can we please entertain the thought of finding a way to give Rogues or characters with a hide chance the opportunity to use that ability vs true sight?



Ie can a DC check be built into the True Sight so that it checks vs the hide of the creature to see if it can overcome it?



Or alternatively can we make a version of True Sight that is specific to Layonara and have that used instead? One that can operate more realistically? So that when the creature does not have line of sight they lose track of the rogue with a successful hide check or something?



I know Im asking a lot, but the amount of times Ive heard the laments of players with high level rogues, and now I'm one of them, maybe its time we could do something about it?

[Unknown User]

I believe that the problem here would be that things with true sight have true sight for a reason. And that reason is mostly that people shouldn't just be able to walk around them just like that.



Alright there is one way to walk around them, namely sanctuary, but that is buggy at best and you will die rather horribly if it fails you.



So the problem is sort of a trade off between ensuring that no abuse of sneakiness/invis takes place, and making rogues able to employ sneaky tactics without a DM watching.

[Unknown User]

Hehe you're rather impatient, I was hoping that you would get the solution to this problem upon succeeding in your WLDQ. We're almost there!



As for the topic at hand, if the spell can in fact be changed, perhaps it would be better if a sizable bonus to Spot and Search checks was given instead of automatically enabling the caster to see hidden creatures? It could still spot hidden people and give the caster immunity to the Weird spell. We just simply removed the "I WIN" option that a caster gains from the spell. As for the bonus gained, perhaps it could 1/caster level? I'm not sure, I leave the details to you guys since its a matter of balance. Just my two cents.



Edit: How about letting it keep the ability to instantly spot invisible creatures to avoid having mages that can simply slither around via an invisibility spell.

[Unknown User]

I know the wolves in the Thunder Peaks were given True Sight for a reason, to prevent anyone to sneak up the mountain without needing a group.



I readily agree True sight is overpowered, but changing it would have dire ramifications for any battle involving creatures with Hide in Plain Sight. You'd have to remove Hips if you make such a change to True Sight.



I feel your pain on the line of sight thing. Once creatures lock on, they are stuck in autofollow even if they can't see you. Which is why corner sneaking isn't a good alternative to Hips in NWN combat.



My advice would be to use potions and/or scrolls of invisibility instead. The faster movement speed allows you to take that first hit with 50 % concealment, then run away and finally get the creature to stop following you as he should.

[Unknown User]

I know there are servers(usually the pvp oriented ones) that use an altered version of True Sight



TS=See Invisibility and +50 on spot checks



that would mean a high lvl rogue/ranger would still be able to sneak around a spawn with TS and players with TS should (hopefully) be able to spot creatures that have HIPS

[Dorganath]

OK, there's several things at work here.



Probably top among them is that True Seeing is an effect coded into the NWN system, and we can't change the way that works.  We can only change the way the spell works.  In this case, the spell applies the "True Seeing" effect and also the glowing eyes effect for a given duration of time.



The line-of-sight thing is a tricky one and again something that is again pretty much in Bioware's lap.  True Seeing, when active, opens up the range of things that can be detected by a creature to include hiding and invisible creatures. While these things may not necessarily be within the line-of-sight, they may be within range of hearing, which is when you get that transparent image of another creature on the other side of a barrier even though your character cannot actually "see" it or target it with anything that requires a line-of-sight, such as a bow or a spell.



(Side note:  I know PCs use this partial detection all the time to get a feel for what foes await them ahead. It's only fair that the AI gets to use this too. *winks*)



This is significant because creatures with True Seeing on permanently are not using the spell but rather have the True Seeing effect permanently added to their creature skin.  In some cases, True Seeing as a creature property is meant to represent extremely heightened senses, be it a "tremor-sense" for underground dwellers, who probably have very little eyesight in truth, or extremely sensitive hearing.



I actually agree that True Seeing vs. Rogues is really kind of bad, but on the flip side, so is the ability for a non-HiPS rogue to "hide" in the middle of a roadway in broad daylight (assuming no active combat).  In PnP rules, True Seeing doesn't reveal anything that's hiding, and given my choice, that's how it would go. However, I know there are severe technical challenges to actually implementing something like hiding (i.e. using obstructions and things), which is probably why Bioware made the choice to have True Seeing work vs. Hiding/Stealth/HiPS. It's not perfect, but it's a reasonable technical design decision to make.



Unfortunately, as I said, we cannot change how the True Seeing effect works.  We could only change the spell, and that would do nothing for the problem suggested above.  We would also have to find and change every creature out of our 2000-ish to swap True Seeing for See Invisibility and a high boost to Spot and Listen.  Even after doing that, the effect may be about the same in terms of detecting a sneaking rogue.  Also, if any of the creatures we have placed are stock Bioware creatures with True Seeing as a creature property, we'd have to duplicate them, adding to our palette bloat.



Then again...there's some creatures at the very high end of things where it would make perfect sense to have the ability to see all, hidden or invisible.



As Filatus observed, any enemy creatures with True Seeing could potentially become even more dangerous, which might then require an adjustment on that end.



It might also be worthwhile at the same time to update Find Traps to give a bonus to Spot checks.



Anyway, it's a huge undertaking, potentially taking several iterations to get "right", and one that may give very little benefit, even to pure rogues.



That all said, if there is a system out there though (or someone wants to make one) that does, effectively replace True Seeing without a major overhaul, I'm willing to entertain it.

[miltonyorkcastle]

   

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It might also be worthwhile at the same time to update Find Traps to give a bonus to Spot checks.

FYI, Legend Lore already provides a bonus to spot (yes, it's a much higher level spell), and seems appropriate as an aid for mages to detect rogues attempting to sneak up on them.

[Dorganath]

Legend Lore is self-only, whereas TS and Find Traps are targeted.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I see. Still, I'm not sure why that would be a needed/wanted addition to Find Traps unless we intend for it to replace TS. I think I'm missing something.

[Dorganath]

It's suggested as a balance vs. hiding on the low end, and just speculation anyway.  It's relatively short-lived but more easily craftable.  



Mostly just brainstorming, milt.  I did say "might".  *winks*

[miltonyorkcastle]

   

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I did say "might".

I knew I was missing something.

[Dorganath]

It was mostly a thought as a sort of alternative to Amplify, which gives  +20 to Listen.  As some characters have demonstrated, a high listen check is often just as effective to detecting a stealthed individual as a high spot check. So I thought of enhancing Find Traps to include Spot to round out the more visually-oriented spell.



Anyway, yeah...just floating down the stream of consciousness.  Don't mind me!

[Acacea]

Since the idea was to make it a little easier on rogues by tweaking TS, I could only think that FT would be tweaked if the TS no longer automatically saw through stealth? Don't know why else we'd increase the chances of spotting even further in response

[Hellblazer]

I know that for a wldq reward it was made possible for a pc not to be detectable by TS? At least that's what I understood. As I know it, that pc is no longer plaid, so I don't think it would be a hard thing for the player to accept that the hips has been modified to be able to do what she gained through wldq?



I don't think normal rogue should be able just sneak up to a foe like a hips shadow dancer could. Although I do feel for those rogues that get blasted from now\\ where as soon as they get close to a corner and puts a foot around it.



So it's my understanding that something is possible here, maybe just look at that wldq reward to see how to apply it to hide/move silently and hips. Maybe for normal rogue place it as a 2 feat. It would seem more expensive to use and show a certain training. For SD, just adjust the Hips so it's there automatically.

[Pankoki]

The world leader reward for that was just G-sanc (with some hefty damaging penalties when she used it). It was more to do with the character's link to some very shadowy people than to her ability to just "hide". It should go without saying that giving G-sanc to HiPSters is a really bad idea.

[Dorganath]

In addition to what Pankoki said...



It wasn't a replacement for her "hide" or HiPS but a separate ability applied by a subrace skin.



Regardless, whether played or not, giving away a WLDQ reward to the masses is just not going to happen.

[Hellblazer]

Ah good to know, I never knew the specific of her ability.

[Dezza]

The reason I brought it up was because being a rogue or assasin character or shadow dancer character involves one main aspect, the use of stealth. Mages have spells, clerics have spells, fighters have strength and brawn etc, but rogues have...stealth and sneaks. To offset that advantage they have perhaps the worst saving throws, bar reflex, of any class on the server. Once they are detected they are dead. True sight gives an unfair advantage to any creature because it does not take into account skills and abilities that can counter it.



Example: My rogue/assasin, level 20 was stunned by colour spray from the Red Light Goblin Shaman just the other day.



My attack dmg when engaging directly is 15-25 on average, from stealth its 55-75. Thats a huge difference when you are detected immediately by True Sight and are trying to fight things that are supposedly in your 'range'.



I know this has always come down to the 'too hard' basket, but its a character killer that I've never really realised before until I've been in the situation and can experience the severe penalty it applies to a character build for stealth.  In any pvp the first response of the opposing player is TS because no matter what a rogue does they can be seen. If that's the case then surely it's worth doing something about it?

[Filatus]

An alternative might be giving pure rogues some kind of ability which has a dex based DC. Some sort of effect that takes the creature who is hit and fails the dc, out of combat for one round so they can get their sneak attacks.



Just brainstorming at this point.

[Pankoki]

What's a pure rogue?



Right... I suppose no one wants to go down that road. Heh. Honestly, this is probably going to sound harsh, but spending development time to change a spell that affects pretty much every character on the server to differing manners so that what? 4 shadow dancers/assassins in the server can PvP fairly? It seems a waste of energy.



Preferably we should have something along the lines that Filatus mentioned (Though that particular idea might be a little too hard to do), but special abilities that grant flat footedness under special conditions or have an actual system that respects Initiative.





ALTERNATIVELY! You can follow the age old strategy for successful roguerizing:



Step 1: Find a tank

Step 2: Stab

Step 3: Profit





*shrugs* Some classes are not meant to solo.