Vampires

[Witch Hunter]

"I think that he just wasn't understanding the whole ECL thing... Heh. Took me some extensive reading to finally understand it, myself, back in the day. "

Actually I know what that means :p
I was reffering to the fact vampires are VERY powerful.
Theres some MMORPG I played where you play either vampires or vampire hunters... the vampires get many cons and pros but they start out VERY powerful while the humans started weaker but had lots of stuff (mainly anti-undead magic that kicked ass :|)
Giving a vampire a few immunes and such won't change his hp... and it's not much of a problem to take off 15-20 damage in a round

[LoganGrimnar]

if Vampires are ever used i thank it sould be something you can devlop into. you dont start as a vampire, that would be lame, but for an ECDQ i can see someone becomeing a vampire..

[Eight-Bit]

If they were allowed I feel that they would have to have Corath or another evil God as their diety, be of an evil alignment, and must stay true to their God to one maintain a quality of Vampirism, and prevent the Vampire-Gone-Good cliche.

[Nuzatch]

I think this really all depends on what Leanthar's take on Vampirism is.  D&D is made to be changed.  That's the very reason it is so wonderful.  It is morped to be whatever you want it to be.  As such, who says that Vampirism corrupts your soul, turns you wicked, etc. etc.  In my eyes, becoming a Vampire is simply a biological occurance, and could easily be described as such.  This kind of thing, while having a vast psychological impact on a person (Think about never being able to set foot in the sunlight ever again...) wouldn't necissarily turn them evil.

Granted, it is FAR easier to then slip into evil, as feeding, and in-general psychotic-ness become problematic, but a character that understands the changes and perhaps even is prepared for them could come to use their powers in ways that they feel is doing a greater good, and overcome the aforementioned issues.

Getting back to the original point, Vampires in Layo are most likely going to be VERY different than Vampires anywhere else, if for no other reason than everything else in Layo is so uniquely different.  Almost everything in Layo as compared to "Normal" PnP rules is different, tweaked, and adjusted to fit the campaign.  Why shouldn't vampires be as well?

I always liked the idea of a Vampire settling down and ruling a township from a keep.  Rarely showing himself, but also ruling with little incident, so as never to make people question him.  Problems in the town, be it crime, vilainy or whatever else, are dealt with swiftly in the dead of the night, with no one the wiser...

[Aragon]

I have played a vampire on several other servers, namely Anchordeep, but a few others as well.  There are a few problems with playing as vampires.  First, have you ever noticed that the clock says its 9 am and it still looks like it is midnight?  The game has issues when you have more than like 100 areas in a single module.  Bioware never intended for there to be PW.  It is a lag issue.  So what happens is you are a vampire and you happen to be on the prowl at what seems to be night because it is dark outside when all of a sudden *poof* it is midday and now you are dead cause you were out in the sunlight.  This is one serious problem with the game engine ... not that Orth can't find a work around.

On Anchordeep, the amount of damage that a vampire received from sunlight exposure was based upon the time.  Daybreak at like 7 am would do 1d6 fire damage, increasing by 1 die roll or six for each hour up to noon.  This damage would be applied every heartbeat ... so every 8 seconds that you were in an area designated as outdoors and not in a forest or cave you got hit with the fire damage.

Vampires had several cool things on that server.  Vampire was a PrC that you could reach a max of 8 levels in.  Here are the abilities you recieved with each class:
ABILITIES:
1: Con -2, blood drain (lesser), resistances (lesser), Summon Thrall, spider climb, vampire bonus feats (Alertness, Dodge)
2: Str +2, blood drain (moderate), fortification (light), vampire bonus feats (Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes)
3: Cha +2, Dex +2, coffin sanctuary (lesser), dominate (lesser), gaseous form (lesser), resistances (greater), slam
4: Str +2, alternate form (lesser), blood drain (greater), dominate (moderate), AC +2, vampire aversions
5: Wis +2, children of the night (lesser), coffin sanctuary (greater) , damage reduction 5/silver and magic, dominate (greater), gaseous form (moderate), sunlight & water vulnerability (lesser)
6: Int +2, Str +2, fast healing 1, Fortification (moderate)
7: Dex +2, children of the night (greater), create spawn (lesser), dominate (superior), energy drain (lesser), gaseous form (greater), sunlight & water vulnerability (greater), undeath, vampire bonus feat (Combat Reflexes)
8: Cha +2, alternate form (greater), create vampire(greater), damage reduction 10/silver and magic, energy drain (greater), fast healing 5, AC +2, turn resistance +4

Anchordeep used two types of vampires, Pure Blood and Turned.  Only a pure blood could create other vampires.

Anyways, the real problem with playing a vampire is that when someone examines you they see all the special abilities that you have (regenerating, immunities, ect...) and instantly they know that you are a vampire and they are going to kill you.  People have to RP properly.  For the most part the Layonara Community does a good job avoiding stuff like this, but occassionally we have our dificulties.  I hope in NWN2 they do not allow the examine screen.

EDIT - If we ever have Vampires in Layonara there should not be any good vampires.  That is something that is unheard of anywhere in mythology, dnd, ravenloft or anything else.  They are creatures that feed on the blood of the living.  They are not alive they are undead creatures.  At best they could feed of animals and try to be civilized, as most tried to do in an attempt to lure their prey.  But at the core they were still evil.  Creatures of the night.

Also, if we have vampires there should be a timer similar to the food and water that they must drink blood or suffer massive penalties, or insanity (ravaging anything they see if deprived of blood long enough).  A simple item that drains the constitution of a creature on a successful bite attempt would do.

[miltonyorkcastle]

okay... let me see if I've got all this down....

either Biological, or undead...

all evil, or mostly evil with the capacity for good...

sunlight aversion...

PC or NPC...

Blood frenzy or controlled feeding...

Whew...  like 8bit said, prolly a bit too complicated...

However, it would be nice to have a few more situations and/or quests having interactions with vampire NPCs.  One, because it's something I have seen little of, and two, so players can get a feel for what vampires are really about on Layo- their agendas as a whole, their origin (maybe a long series to discover such), etc.

oh, and I wholeheartedly agree that if PC's are ever allowed to become vampires (I don't think any should start as vamps, that is, all PC wamps would have to be turned vamps, not pre-existing) it should not be a starting race but rather a prestige class for those that have been turned.

anyways, just thoughts popping out after reading this thread...

[Witch Hunter]

Perhaps a warning when the sun is rising would be good
I thought about it a bit as well... how about making it possible only to characters above a certin level that died a perma death?
then have them raised and go through some quest in order to become a vampire?

[Faldred]

Witch Hunter - 4/4/2006  3:42 PM

I thought about it a bit as well... how about making it possible only to characters above a certin level that died a perma death?
then have them raised and go through some quest in order to become a vampire?

Hmmm... rather than perma death, make it only available to players with some minimum number of death tokens.  Make it a kind of moral challenge... as perma death looms closer and much of the soul has been stripped away, does the character want to trade away his/her remaining "humanity"/(insert appropriate racial term) for a chance to avoid or at least put off that permanent death.  (This may be more lich-like than vampire-like, however.)  This would also make choosing to become a vampire an evil action -- it wouldn't be a case of "I'm a good person who got bit by a vampire".

Of course, this would do an end-run around the current death system.  Therefore, there would have to be other penalties for "dying" as a vampire.

[Witch Hunter]

You get no cookies for dying as a vampire

[Nuzatch]

Just keep in mind that it all boils down to what L thinks and wants Vampires to be.  Heck, if you're looking for a solution to the sunlight issue, just cause sunlight to make a Vampire completely worthless, like reduced to 3 con, str, and a severely reduced int (I'd say 8, simply so the Vampire would have trouble speaking properly, but could communicate).  This would allow them to move around during the day if absolutely necissary, but sitll punish them, and most likely make them avoid daylight altogether (What would happen if a vampire hunter came for them while they were so week?)

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

That actually sounds like the best string of ideas I've heard so far.

A choice to become a vampire? Part of a CDQ, if not an ECDQ, like RDDs are. Terribly interesting.

Empty Creature Skin during daylight hours for Vamps. Not only do they get -4 to everything, they also don't recieve any XP for ANYTHING. Add Daylgiht Aversion, and you've got yourself some nice counteractions to the vamps, apart from damage.

Still, we really should wait for L to give the final word on what vamps should be.

[Weeblie]

Hrm...

Personally, I don't think vampires will ever be added. Too much job for... 30 minutes of fun for 95% of the "will be vampire"-players? (until they found out that the penelties are just too harsh)

As to make vampire a prestige class which would require a ECDQ. Sure! But... erh... again... hours and even more hours of implementation just for one or two persons... Naah... Don't think it will happen.

Instead, use those hours to create more areas, improve CNR, add other "neat" features...

But that's only my fifty cents (or pennies, or whatever...).

[Harlas Ravelkione]

There are several reasons in my opinion why vampires should not be on Layonara. 2 of these are...

1) If you are around a good aligned cleric, paladin or undead slayer they might "smell" that something is wrong with you (especially if they are high lvl compared to you - they have the experience that tells them something is amiss). A detect evil would very easily and quickly reveal that to them and they would slay you on sight. The PVP rule would not allow this, but it should happen. Where this is different from drow, orcs and giants is that there are cases in which there have been outsiders, outcasts and such of these who were slowly accepted into society in Layonara. The laws do not allow one to slay these on sight, unless it is proven that they are enemies of the good people of Layonara.
No one would stop someone from slaying a zombie, skeleton or vampire if such a creature entered a town or city.

2) Imagine you are on a quest where undead are being fought. You are bluffing your way alongside the party and no one detects your true identity. Still, clerics around you are massively turning undead that attack you on sight. The turning of party members or players near to you should affect you, of course. It should either kill you or make you run from them, which will blow your cover very effectively. The engine would not make this happen in game, so it doesn't work in my opinion.

[Pibemanden]

Í agree with Harlas, vampires shouldn't be a playable race. If it where already implemented in the game like rdd then it could be added but with the same restriction, that you have to be epic. But implementing it now would just require to much work from the team and the benifits of this work would be almost none.
Rather spend some time on even more quests and even better CNR possibilities.

[Polak76]

Vampires would add an excellent taint to the world.  But then again as those who know me know I love all things related to the macabre and am fully behind it.

I do agree that it would be most difficult to play, but that would depend on the person RPing the char.  Already I can see dozens of people excited with the idea of making one, yet they’ve probably never played a CN char or been aligned to an evil faction/Deity.  I think once someone has proven they can manage RP of a less then neutral character (which is an extremely challenging role), then one could be considered to adopt the class of Vampire through a CDQ.

And as far as what alignment a Vampire should be I’m totally in support of Aragon (ie only evil).  I think it would be sickening to see good Vampires running around.  Already we’ve got ORC’s and Drow running around happy and jolly, sometimes I wonder if they come any other way as PC’s. (please excuse my irritation)  

As far as game mechanics, I think we should see what NWN2 has to offer.  Perhaps we can solve all these issues discussed above.

Cheers,
Polak76

[Polak76]

Some more ideas:

A friend of mine owns Oblivion and mentioned he just became a vampire.  He told me the system involved and I think it's fantastic.

What happens is when a Vampire feeds he dilutes the power of the Vampire somewhat but increases the resistance.  So if a Vampire has just fed, he would be resistant to sunlight and whatever else you wish to throw at them, basically being quite normal.  If he doesnt feed for a while he begins to change quite rapidly, becoming more powerful as a Vampire but less human.  This includes the look and abilites (so a Vampire unfed for 3 days would hold the sterotypical teeth, pale skin..etc.  He would stick out like a sore thumb).

This system allows a wide scope for how people wish to play Vampires.  I think its Dynamic, offering many hooks for quests and RP as well as taming the powers//weaknesses of the class.

Cheers,
Polak76

[Talan Va'lash]

Its possible to script PC vampires as "turnable" by turn undead, harmed by cure spells cured by harm spells, affected by undeath to death, all of these.

D&D vampires are always CE (as per monster manual.)  Which I don't like as a good number of examples in literature are LE or NE.

Eventually, in this far future where there might be vampires, the length of the day would have to be extended (an hour = 5, 8 or 10 min or somesuch) so to give a resonable stretch of night time in which to accomplish anything.  This would also be nice for other light sensative PCs.

The underdark (or a closer to the surface network of caves) would need to be developed more as a network between places for travel so as not to utterly kill a vampires playing ability during day hours, but limited enough so that a vampire is still restricted (to make up a bit for their benefits.)

A drinkable blood system could be created, with an item that can be used on living creatures (only if the creature is incapacitated or willing) to heal/adjust hunger of the vampire.  Blood could be stored (or bought stored) in potions that would act as "curing" potions, casting inflict wounds spells (though it should do nothing for non-vampires.)

When a vampires body is destroyed it either begins to reform in his coffin or he must assume gaseous form and return to his coffin to reform (this varies by setting.)

A vampire doesn't have to start with ALL the immunities and benefits.  They can be level gained as the vampire becomes more powerful.  Amoung those properties should be 150% vulnerabilities to fire and divine damage.  A vampire should be disallowed from ever taking the RDD prc (thats just silly) druid, shifter, or ever gaining or wearing a resistance or immunity to fire or divine damage.

Also, PC vampires don't have to be given ALL the vampire traits.  For example:  Immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits - This will just shoot the ECL to an unplayable level.  So just gloss over it.  Besides, I don't really think vampires should have this anyway, they're not like a zombie or skelleton or golem, they have a definite anatomy and certain wounds would hurt them a lot more (hence beheading being part of the way to truly kill a vampire.)

I don't think a vampire should HAVE to stick out or be visibly identifiable for any reason.  Some may, and some types of vampires are very much so having strange physical traits or deformities (nosferatu.)  However, a vampire count would probably always put makeup on before he held court.  heh, LE vampires are cool.

[PsychicToaster]

I'm a vampire fan myself, and I like a lot of the ideas posted so far.

I especially like the death token idea.  Cutting a deal with the Soul Mother resulting in a vampire would be the perfect way to introduce vampires into Layo.  Maybe set it so that normal deaths by weapon/magic damage don't give a chance of Save vs Soul Mother, making them immune to being killed in that way, but sunlight/divine/fire deaths would guarantee a DT.

This would also plausibly drop you at least one rank towards evil/chaotic.  Ideally I'd say it would drop a good person to neutral, but not *necessarily* be the reason a neutral person drops to evil.  Its hard to be good when you have to feed on the living, but that alone doesn't make you "evil" in the DnD universe, or even in the real world.  It just makes you, unsavory.   The furthest vampirism would push you is CN.  Completely self-absorbed, but not specifically malicious.  Save that for if someone specifically turns to evil via CDQ or roleplaying.

As for daylight.  I suggest that instead of damage during daylight, it simply nullifies any damage reduction abilities.  If a vampire dies outdoors under daylight they automatically receive a DT.  That means they can still get around and be played, and roleplay, but adventuring in daylight is very dangerous(and lets face it, adventuring is where the *tangible* benefits of vampirism come into play anyway).  

The blood system could be handled like the water/food system is now.  They wouldn't need water/food but instead would need blood.  Maybe give them a bite feat on their creature skin that allows them to make a melee touch attack.  1 damage for each point of blood needed to refresh themselves and the target is stunned for a round.  Same penalties stack up for not feeding as not eating/drinking.  Decreased saves, attack, etc. .  

They'd be treated as undead in any other respects.  Immune to some things, vulnerable to turning/fire/etc. .  

The Vampire as PrC that Aragon posted essentially accounts for the ECL8 that would be incurred by adding all those bonuses.  I'd suggest toning them down to be more in line with an ECL3-4 or doing it as a PrC.  ECL as it is handled on Layo is pretty rough since so much more XP is required per level than in traditional DnD.  So I am a fan of the PrC method since that also adds vampire hit dice and AB as the person embraces more fully their vampirism or tries to supress it while focusing on their former path (with the normal requirement of at least 5 class levels).  I like the PrC idea of allowing a person to choose how much their vampiric nature affects them by either embracing it and continuing to level in it or denying it.  This freedom isn't available in the ECL method.

Maybe set a script flag for taking the class at 5 DTs and BAB 5 to keep it on par with other PrCs?  

As for roleplaying, they are undead, but they are also the undead forms of familiar people who are, essentially, the person they once were with some added appetites.  They aren't the mindless undead animated by the overflow of negative energy into crypt-like areas bent on mindless destruction of the living.  However, they aren't exactly natural either.  

Also, this is Layonara, not Faerun, or Grayhawk, or Ravenloft, etc. . . Vampires can be anything that they are roleplayed to be.  If they're a result of selling one's soul to the Soul Mother, then that is an entirely new form of vampirism unique to Layo.  Their appetite for blood is an embodiment of her craving for the living as they become her semi-immortal agents on the prime material plane.  It could even be said that the blood doesn't even animate the vampire, but is paid as a toll to the Soul Mother to keep themselves "alive."

[crazedgoblin]

sounds really good if this could be implemented

[Leanthar]

"....Also, this is Layonara, not Faerun, or Grayhawk, or Ravenloft, etc. . . Vampires can be anything that they are roleplayed to be. If they're a result of selling one's soul to the Soul Mother, then that is an entirely new form of vampirism unique to Layo. Their appetite for blood is an embodiment of her craving for the living as they become her semi-immortal agents on the prime material plane. It could even be said that the blood doesn't even animate the vampire, but is paid as a toll to the Soul Mother to keep themselves "alive."....."

I especially agree with this 'Also, this is Layonara, not Faerun, or Grayhawk, or Ravenloft, etc. . . Vampires can be anything that they are roleplayed to be.', well said.

Not a bad idea on the vampire requirements...things are changing at certain levels (design stuff) but I will keep this part in mind. I also tend to agree about the PrC thing.