Well time for a more in-depth comment on the post Harloff made as well as my own concerns. This should not be read as a “good old explode-and-leave” post, it is my thoughts on the subject and as such I have considered this carefully before posting. Please do not read this as an attack on anyone nor an attempt to discredit the work of anyone or any such things. I have a feeling I will be banned for this post, but I want to express my thoughts first, and should I be banned so be it.
First of all I will say that I have always respected Harloff both as a player and as a friend (yes I guess it is known to most that we know each other in RL) He has often made suggestions especially to how crafting could be improved and has a logic approach to things. Such outburst as this is for one who knows him a sign of a deep and thorough frustration. I recall when we began to play here, making the Sigurdson brothers, it was a great time. We would speak of how great things were, but alas as time passed and we saw how it in reality works frustrations came to us. Recently discussion of the world is mainly focused on issues that needs attention and I guess some know and to others it will come as a surprise, but the reason I left the team was not my limited RL time, but more that I could not agree with how things are and functions so as I wrote in my resignation letter “I cannot in good conscience be part of something I fundamentally disagree with” hence I returned to the state of player, but enough rambling about old times and why things have been done as they have.
In many aspects what the team and the players does here is incredible. I have often been immensely impressed by the work put forth. With that said I will proceed to my points of critique.
I agree with Harloff and although perhaps it could have been put in a nicer way, but it none the less holds truth. So let us try and look beyond that and instead take a look at the issues he raises.
Well classes I have already commented on earlier, and I do believe it should be made a vastly higher priority than for instance giving us flower to hand to each other. It is true as GhostWhoWalks stated that for instance skald update will affect very few people, and I could see this as a reason to down prioritize such update, but still I will say that I find classes to be of vital importance in this game. That a class isn’t working is perhaps also a reason why so few play it, who wants to play something that is basically useless. About adding “I understand the limitations of my class” to a submission is really not necessary I think as such lies implicit in applying for the class, however you will no where find the calculations on how DC’s are determined etc. for your feats, which should be fixed at least so people can stay clear of these non-working classes. But even if you know the limitations you should still be allowed to say “this is not working” and ask for it to be fixed, I see no reason why one should be content with something that is not functioning as intended.
Let’s be honest to ourselves and take a look at the summons. They are very different and some are better than others. I will simply ask this and you tell me why it is so. “Why are the majority of clerics worshippers of Lucinda and Vorax?”
I will pose a simple answer, their summons are better and their domains are better. Lucinda has some of the best domains and the golems are not to be trifled with. I will wager that 90% of the people here when planning a character think about how to get the best of it power-wise and I shall readily be the first to say that for me it goes as well, although I chose poorly when I chose the skald
I believe the bear Harloff mentions is summonable at level 17 and has a CR of 25 or there about. Now don’t say that such summon is reasonable, with such summon you only need to buff it and stand back and watch it kill while you harvest the XP. Basically I believe with such you can solo Dregar easily.
I do believe there is much secrecy in Layonara. I will put up examples I have used before when addressing more or less the same issue.
- Gods: why aren’t people told of them, it is like having a cardinal at church having to call the pope to get an opinion on a matter or explain why something is a sin. Even high level clerics here do not know why things are as they are, and if I played a cleric I would find that immensely frustrating.
- Krashin: This is a very recent thing but none the less I will bring it up. We have had a history and in depth description of Krashin lying for perhaps 5 months, but people are not allowed to see it. Why not just throw it on LORE for all to see instead of waiting for a new handbook, we have a LORE-team after all.
ZeroVega put up this question:
Do you really want to know everything about everywhere?
And my reply is a simple yes. When I was a GM I did not really know much more than I did as a player, and I think it is of vital importance that a GM would know almost everything that is going on behind the scenes, it is what being a GM is about and yes it removes the mystery of the world, but if you can’t handle losing that then one shouldn’t be a GM, or so I think at least. About the gods, perhaps not everyone should know, but it should be in the deity forums at least, every cleric should be entitled to know why their god does as he/she/it does. Furthermore I would like to take another statement by ZeroVega and comment on:
Too bad I don't know any (secrets ed.) about Layonara... perhaps that's because there are none. About the gods, can you name for me one character or GM for that matter that knows in full what's going on? I can tell you, as I was a GM, that it's not posted in big bold print on the GM Forum all the little secrets of the plot, the gods, organizations, different lands and NWN 2 transitions.
Let me say this, there are plenty of secrecy in the GM structure and as you say it is not posted on the GM forum this information. Does that not already indicate some level of secrecy; at least it does to me. I know there are forums I have never seen nor will I ever see, I have seen some come and go, being closed of for some within a day of it appearing, but I shall not name these forums in respect of the teams. In any case does any ordinary quest GM know what the World GM’s are doing, I don’t think so and I know they don’t have access to the World GM forums, now I would call that secrecy as well. Why should any GM not be able to know what is going on in the world, I find that odd to be honest. I don’t know if I overstep my boundaries here but I will then speak of team structure which I think is also a problem. I have stated this within the GM team before I left so I will merely summarize here as we are talking of this anyways. The team is like a pyramid, at top L then we get World GM’s, then GM’s then Project Team, and then Project Writers and finally the players at the bottom, no one can see the forum of the one above, and very very little information is passed downwards. I myself found that frustrating and I do believe that a more open structure could work equally well if not better, but I know few share this view. I see no reason why information is not passed downwards, it would serve well I think to have many issues shared and also would allow for more views on the matter. I do believe that a horizontal team structure can work just as well as a strictly vertical one, but again this is just my opinion.
And speaking of views on a matter. There was the vote for the twins and “the community “was asked. How many voted on that one…56. Now I will be so rude to say that it is not the opinion of the community that is the opinion of part of the community. The survey was open for 24 hrs and 45 minutes according to times of posting and if we count the posts for and against we have 11 to 1 (excluding posts from L, Stormspirit, Pankoki and posters who posts more than once) which mean that 27 % of the people who voted in favour posted what they thought, where as only 7 % of those who voted against voiced their concerns in a post. I think this should perhaps be considered as well, why do people not voice concerns? Could it be that people are afraid to post critique of things, fearing “retaliation” or perhaps a ban for being too outspoken in disagreement, I am leaning to that answer but I imply you to ponder it for a moment while you look at the numbers again.
Generally I don’t have much faith in a forum survey; it is hardly something I would base a decision upon so to say. If we look through the forum it is filled with praise and back-patting, but don’t you ever wonder why there is so little critique? Could be everything is A-OK and in that case fine, but at least from the people I speak to it seems things are not ok, in fact somewhat far from ok. Out of respect for those who have confided in me I will not disclose any names, but I have been told that people are afraid to post critique as they fear being banned or punished by the team, or simply end on some GM’s “black list” so said GM will cause them problems. I think this is a sign that something is terribly wrong in the community, there is a huge rift between players and GM’s in some cases I think. Just think of this simple example.
Joe Average begins to play Layonara. He likes it here and wants to progress into epic levels or perhaps even world leader. Now suddenly Joe finds out that there is something he disagrees strongly with and for him there are two possible options. Easiest is to keep quiet with it, perhaps even praising the team for their skill and dedication, ensuring he has done nothing wrong that may hinder him from reaching his goal. On the other hand Joe could also publicly or in a PM voice his opinion and concern; however that could mean that he would step on some toes and Joe knows that those who will be approving him for his goal are those he will be criticizing. They will when time comes discuss his application in a closed forum where he has no chance to defend himself, let alone know what is being said about him, so Joe goes with what he knows is safe and stays quiet. I believe people fear the team, they fear the wrath of the GM’s and they know the GM’s hold the ultimate power in Layonara, as well as many believes that power corrupts.
Now Harloff made a statement about GM’s being allowed to do more than players. Even if this is not the case, it is how it can be perceived by people. This is what it is important to watch out for, perceptions. It does not always matter how things are, it matters how they are perceived by the community. If you never see a GM denied for Epic/World Leader and you see others denied it does not require much to seed the thought that they were approved solely because they are GM’s.
Please note that the following example is in no way intended to discredit the player of the character nor the character, it is simply used to illustrate a point and I mean no disrespect.
An example is the case of Remiel. Remiel fell from grace as far as I know and thus lost his paladin powers, or so you would expect at least. I for one am very puzzled then as to why he still has paladin levels, as well as fighter levels, the best of both worlds so to speak. With no explanation for this it simply reads as if he was a GM and thus he shouldn’t lose too much as one would imagine a paladin falling from grace would retain nothing of his paladinhood nor gain the bonus of fighter feats or perhaps it is just me that sees paladinhood as a very black/white thing, there is no middle ground in such. I do believe that it is of utmost importance in everything one does, especially as a member of the team, that one thinks about how ones actions or commenting will be perceived. Of course there is never a fail-safe method, but at least by having this in mind constantly one will improve the odds for not arising misperceptions.
Another prime example about how things are perceived is this, and again please bear in mind that this should not be read as an attack or attempt to discredit anyone, but merely how I have perceived things. It has been brought up that Pankoki and Stormspirit play much together and also Pankoki ran Stormspirits ECDQ as a one-on-one thing. Now as they are friends they should of course be allowed to play together, I believe everyone agrees to that. However one should perhaps note that the perceptions of how things are might be different. As to illustrate, Eldarwen and Acacea and Triba are all chars who spend a lot of time together or so I gather at least. Now when Pankoki runs a quest where these two attend and also take initiative, and by doing so gets more attention, as Pankoki states himself, those who take initiative get rewarded. To people that may very easily be seen as favouritism or as Pankoki running the quest for Eldarwen, although this perhaps is not the case, something I shall not determine, I will merely focus on how it may be perceived. But in any case such perception is troublesome as it is something that will not just die out if you don’t speak of it, it will remain in the hidden and living well there, trust me. I don’t have a solution for such problem, how to change the perception as it seems so integrated into the fabric of this world now, but we must bear in mind that people forget such things very slowly.
However as I have mentioned taking initiative I have a comment I would like to make as well, which deals not with perceptions nor anyone specific, but more a general statement. When we see characters taking initiative for a whole group it can be hard to add to this group. This is especially the case if the char in question is very intent on wanting the spotlight, and thus the attention of the GM. Now this may be all fine IC play, but I think we as players also besides being RP’ers have an OOC consideration to our fellow players, the people controlling the other chars in the party. I think it is the obligation of any player to think of how we may allow everyone in a party to have a moment in the spotlight if possible, and as GM’s we should try to accommodate everyone having at least a moment where they may be important, something I tried to implement on my quests at least. It may be intimidating if your typing skills are not overly good, if you are not speaking English as your native language and you are grouped with those epic GM chars. I can well understand why some don’t really participate in a quest then but hang back and “leech” xp to use that term. I think at that point it becomes important that we remember our OOC considerations and perhaps at times set them above being correct IC play. This would, or so I hope, make it easier to integrate high and low levels making them better team-players. To put it simple I think we should have consideration of our fellow players and set that above the need to be correct IC for our char always. This does not mean you cannot RP your char, it just means that sometime we should stop trying to hug the limelight and let others step up, or even encourage them to step up. Even if this perhaps not is proper RP for your char, it is a consideration for your fellow player and I find that equally important.
Another issue, which I think is in the spirit of the posts Harloff used to make, is about crafting. Crafting is a nice addition to NWN, but there are issues. The imposed limitations for once, they were added to stop people from mass producing I think, but it does not stop anyone from mass producing, it only means I now have to spend 40 times as long polishing 200 gemstones, but I still do it, although annoyed. And annoyed is the word here, it causes only annoyance for those who wish to become great crafters, something that requires hours of grinding. Yes crafting is grinding, at least if you want to be good, that is a fact I believe. I have heard the argument that the limit adds realism, but I hardly think that it is a bonus as there are so many other places where realism is missing in crafting, which I can illustrate by these examples:
- From a 5lb gold ingot you can make 1 ring, and an amulet takes 10lbs of gold, what happens to the leftovers?
- Swords are made in molds, such sword would hardly work, and it is made from metal and by hammering it, not by pouring liquid metal into a mold that is how you make cast iron which is not useable for weapons.
- Costumization is difficult, but the concept of changing your armor after it has been made holds no basis in reality, armors are costum made, or at least if we go for plate armors.
Just 3 quick examples to show how realism already is missing so why try to make some realism by adding an annoyance factor for the people who craft.
Now someone mentioned the amounts of rules here. I myself have no problem with rules, but I think we also need to understand that no matter how many rules you make there will always be people who break them, or go to that place where you are no longer playing within the spirit of the rule but going by the letter of the rule, which can be a difference. People will most often try to get the most of things, I believe it is in our nature really, and so people will utilize whatever means they have available to make themselves get to the most favourable situation. I mean we see spells that can make people do things they perhaps were not meant to do, and so the spell gets changed so it can no longer be used in such powerful way. I cannot help but wonder at times why this is, if you take a look at it from a player standpoint, a point I try to take as often as I can, it would seem like you are indeed punished for being clever and using your resources to the fullest potential. This is a low magic world, so by definition spellcasters will be far more powerful than non-magic users, simple as that. So of course you will see spellcasters being able to do more than most others, they will become the most powerful on the server. I recall the discussion of Tenser’s Transformation where it was discussed if said spell should be disallowed as it would allow mages and sorcerers to solo far more than anyone else. Well if we just drag in the low-magic world view it is obvious that they should be able to go places fighters wouldn’t even dare of going. It is how things are when a world is set in low-magic. As those without spell abilities cannot improve through powerful magical items they will not be able to keep up with magic users. So I ask this, why hit on those who actually play clever and use their spells and a skill to the maximum of what is possible, to me it somehow seems a bit odd.
I know this is volunteer work and that no one gets paid, and L has to pay for server costs, so yes it is his world and bravo to those who help create it. However they are not the only ones giving their time actually, what about the players who spend hour after hour here, without them there wouldn’t be a world as we have now. Just a small spin on this which I think is important to remember.
I would also like to make a comment on the post Harloff made with regards to his attacks but first a word before my point. This is not intended as an attack on anyone, it is a statement of a fact, and I imply you to read it not as an attack or slur. Yes such attack as he made are uncalled for I agree and alas it has drawn attention away from the points he made. However I would like to add this. In the past there have been several instances where the posts made by Pankoki have been sub-par to the high standards set by for instance Rhizome, who is always respectful in his replies to players no matter how many times a question have been asked and no matter how “dumb” it may seem. Time ago the posts made by Pankoki did often have a hard tone and were not always respectful to the players, this however has changed and respect to Pankoki for that. However one must expect that people do not forget such easily. If you once see a GM post a hard reply to your question you will remember it, it will only make the rift between players and GM’s bigger as no one wants to have such reply to their posts, hence they don’t post. As such I will merely say this: do to others as you wish them to do to you, for people do not forget past transgressions easily.
My next point is a simple one. I think as things are Layonara is on the point of being too large. This is especially with regards to how things work; it started as a small game for a few people but has grown tremendously. One cannot expect things that work with few people to work with such huge community as well. For Layonara to continue to grow I think drastic changes should be made or it will break under the pressure caused by a growing players base.
I’ve seen that several posts say that if you are not satisfied with how things are you should just find another place to play instead of complaining about what is not right. Well I think that is very wrong, I think if you are not satisfied it is important that you voice why you are not content. It is not to disrespect anyone or anything people complain, or at least for me it is not. I care deeply for this world and when I complain it is out of concern and I wish to bring attention to things that might be perceived negatively by others than me, in an attempt to make things better, or so is my feeble hope. But from the posts I have read through there I get a distinct feeling that people think we should all bow down and be content or leave, something I can never agree with, one should always stand up and say what one believes to be right and wrong, no matter if this is a free game or not. If we are at a point where we cannot criticise or at least the community doesn’t think we should do so I think we are truly lost. It is really seen as this, when one posts critique you will most likely see 5 others posting that they don’t agree and that the team is doing great and you should not complain, I think that shows that perhaps within the community itself there is no room to criticise which is truly saddening.
But as I have seen most who post hold the aforementioned opinion I shall take my hat and leave, for I am indeed not content with how things are. Thus for me it is a sad day in a way, but also a day where I will put my frustration to rest once and for all. When I came here first I thought I would play here until Layonara was no more, I joined the teams to add what I could to this world that I had come to love and where I have spent numerous hours, playing and interacting with you all. However I had the simple hope I could perhaps help things improve for there will always be things that needs improvement, but alas I could not. Or perhaps rather I could not keep my energy for it, I have felt drained due to my frustration with the game, a reason I have not played in a while. I could simply no more find the energy to log on and be reminded of my frustration. I have found many a good friend here and it is with sadness I say farewell to those, but I hope we may still communicate from time to time.
To quote Lonnarin on the options available I will sum it up as this:
Go to another Server – Done, already found one
Go to EB and buy a new game – Done, bought WoW quite a while ago
Go outside meet women – Done and done as well although I stick to the one I already met.
But joking aside, and this was intended as a joke and not a stab. I think things could be improved in many aspects and perhaps they will in time. I have done as much as I can and have the energy for, posting about my concerns both here and on the GM forums while I was a GM, but at some point I have stopped to care. I make this final post as I think someone should stand up for Harloff who made some very valid points if you look past the wording of his post.
I had hoped that there would be posts from those who share these critical views on things, as this was a prime opportunity to get a debate going about the problems. But alas it was not meant to be, which is saddening.
I have had a wonderful time playing here before frustration set in, and I hope when I think back on Layonara that I will be reminded of the good times for there has been an incredible amount of those, but alas I fear I shall remember the end better than the beginning.
Farewell and best of luck to you all
*takes his hat of the rack and leaves, his head hanging low*
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