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Messages - Gulnyr
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41
« on: October 24, 2011, 09:22:50 pm »
It's cool, man.
42
« on: October 24, 2011, 06:20:03 pm »
They've not been granted the right 'by the church'. A smart move by the church, a lawyer's move really, to protect themselves from judgement by a kingdom should a Rofireinite choose to execute justice. By having the church only approve 'sanctioned' (within a given district) verdicts and execution of that verdict, they stay within the good graces of the kingdom in which they abide. And no one is in that position, right? No PC has been granted that right by the church nor by any government. Not even Section Commander Creekskipper, the highest ranking PC. Does that mean a Rofireinite protector who discovers an indigenous people on an unclaimed island somewhere should rely on the judgement from a high protector to determine the verdict for a murderer caught in the act? You'd either have to wait for a high protector to get there, or take the criminal to the high protector, away from the society which he/she wronged. No, the protector must decide for himself or herself whether he/she should confer with the indigenous peoples and advise them in the ways of the Gold with regard to judgement and execution of that judgement, or whether he/she must make the judgement (via whatever is deemed a 'fair' trial) and protect the divine law himself/herself. First, show me an unclaimed island. Don't make it a mental exercise, please; make it matter to what we can actually do. I'm asking questions because it matters to how we play. Second, are you really insisting that the low, low rank of High Protector is enough? Third, I'm really tired of it. Never mind. I've been wanting Jennara to go for Wyrm Commander for a while, but the mess just depresses me and makes me want to quit.
43
« on: October 24, 2011, 05:07:29 pm »
Not every kingdom/country even has 'sanctioned judges'? And while you could drag a criminal across kingdoms to see a judge, the crime might not have relevance, not to mention Rofirein's light won't reach the new lands if you uphold the law somewhere else. Also, which thread (yes, I know some folks can't see the Rofir forums)? It's in the new post there, quotes and links. And this makes things so much more interesting, don't you think? No, actually, I don't. If we were discussing Mist or Katia or any non-Lawful god, it would definitely be nice. Even for Grannoch or Vorax it could be interesting. But for THE god of law and order, not so much. It was bad enough before. Openly admitting anything goes makes it so much worse. Think about playing a monstrous character. There's a challenge in it (or should be, anyway) because of the drawbacks and the limitations, right? That's also one of the interesting things about playing a Lawful character. Neutral is easy; just do whatever. Chaotic isn't much harder than Neutral; just add rebellious tendencies. But Lawful comes with regulation, and then to put the Rofireinite church on it makes it even more strict. Well, it should in my opinion. When one of the qualities Rofirein is said to govern is guidance, you'd expect maybe his church would at least have a label that said "This Way Up," y'know? Not, "Hey, whatever until someone says something, dude." And it seems that there would be something very unifying to explain why the church hadn't fractured into multiple sects - entirely separate churches - who all believed they had the right rules and the right way, each with its own Golden Voice. But here you are telling me the whole thing should be considered more open, more splintered, more wild, and that maybe the day of a hundred Rofireinite faiths is approaching. Some of us want the order and the structure and the regulation. It's a sad day.
44
« on: October 24, 2011, 04:50:44 pm »
What you're telling me is nobody knows what anyone else is talking about, and that the rules are different depending who we ask, which all just supports my position that the Church of Order is a sloppy mess. The first thing I have here is “What gives [Jennara] the right to be judge and jury?”, because if she captures somebody that somebody still hasn’t been tried, carrying out a sentence then would really not be appropriate behaviour. [post=472011]Here[/post], I actually put forth an argument that Knights of the Wyrm, by the words of their oath, had the right to go forth and dispense justice, which Ed negated immediately after: That's not correct. The church appoints judges, and the branch which holds the Judges is a different one from the Knights. The Knights do ultimately answer to the head of the church, just like the Jusiciars, Judges and other branches do. They've not been granted the right to be judge and jury, nobody should have the right to be judge and jury. I bolded the very important part. Ed himself said this whole thing about one character, PC or NPC, being judge, jury, and executioner is totally wrong. Was it changed and no one thought to tell us? Are we really opening it up so that High Protectors and Unit Captains can just go out away from town and do whatever they think is right? Are you really telling me Jennara could have taken matters into her own hands this whole time? She's really a judge now, and a jury, and an executioner? Congratulations to DB, too, I guess. Don't retire yet, man; we just put the system on the fast track. It wasn't a joke, apparently.
45
« on: October 24, 2011, 04:22:56 pm »
Also, nowhere in Rofirein's dogma does it suggest that one must be brought to court to receive justice, either. If you are a cleric of Rofirein (at protector level or higher), and you see someone break the divine law (cause civil strife, etc.), it is your duty to act upon society's behalf and dispense justice in accordance with the law. If you're in a city/province that requires the criminal be brought before local magistrates and juries to deliberate the man's case, then perhaps you submit to those laws as part of supporting and protecting an already peaceful, civil society. But if you are in the boondocks or a place where no such laws exist, then it is your job, as one who must protect and support the peace of society, to both judge and punish the criminal yourself, and in doing so, teach the man that he must act in accordance with the divine laws that promote societal betterment. I, and everyone else who read a particular thread in the Rofirein forum, have been specifically told that this is not the case. It is expressly not permitted to go forth into the wilderness and dispense judgement and punishment as you see fit. Whether through the government of the kingdom or the church structure, a Rofireinite must attempt to bring criminals to those legally sanctioned to judge and execute sentences. Also, unless told otherwise, no PC Rofireinite is officially sanctioned by a government, which makes each of them below the rank of a town guard on the totem pole of authority. Nowhere in Rofirein's dogma does it say you can't torture or maim or take a child away from its mother all in the name of justice, honor, and the law. This is a low blow. No one else's dogma says that, either. We don't have access to the Divine Law because it doesn't actually exist. If we can just assume it doesn't say we can't, then anything goes.
46
« on: October 23, 2011, 03:44:11 pm »
My concern is not really about what can be imagined for some imaginary figure. I'm not thinking about it for mental exercise. As with Alatriel's example, any DM can decide that a high-ranking Rofireinite is this way or that. But there are no PCs in that position. The closest is Jennara, and she's not Evil, nor does she have the authority to declare guilt or order executions, except maybe in Echo in extreme conditions, and that would be because of Trelanian law, not Rofireinite rules. If she did do anything like that, she would be held accountable for ignoring the system and not following the rules. And it would be bad. I still disagree that one man making those choices is within the bounds of the order and system of the Rofireinite faith.
My concern is for actual players with actual characters and the value of the church and its structure and rules. A low-ranking character, like any that is submitted and played, cannot make these decisions except on the smallest scales, and if 'branded' as a liability and opposed to order, he won't advance and may even get into serious trouble if it happens often. How Evil can that character really be if he only thinks Evil and doesn't do Evil so that he actually gets anywhere? That's just LN with some particular Evil tendencies, which isn't abnormal. That's really a question of how alignment is viewed, I guess, and there's never going to be agreement.
47
« on: October 23, 2011, 02:22:16 pm »
Thank you, Dorg. Despite what I said, I know things are not always all-or-nothing, but I also know they often are. I don't recall any examples of things happening without player input that caused any uproar, but I don't doubt that they did or could. The middle ground of that situation, though, is not to decide that things are going to happen and then tell everyone what happens, but to go step by step, giving players time to react if they want, and then reshaping the next step in the path based on player input (or lack thereof), but still with consideration for the proper power level of the characters involved so that, for example, whole kingdoms don't seem as nothing before a gaggle of sword-swinging busybodies. It's not all DM and it's not all player, but a cooperative storytelling effort. For the record, I don't really care about Vehl. If things change toward Law, yay, and if not, yay, keep trying, guys. I was only using the example to point out that the Rofireinites are too often portrayed as going by whatever mortal law is before them rather than the Divine Law, and to point out that their participation and cooperation with the government doesn't make much sense; if you do what they want anyway, they have no incentive to change and you have no leverage against them, right? Anyway, it's perfectly fine that that be left for a player initiative. It just feels like the church is dead or thoughtless if they don't, of their own volition and without PC input, try something new from time to time. Or, y'know, behave like Rofireinites instead of a local police force working for Co'rys. They don't have to take over, but they can stop helping the corrupt government, right? I can have Jennara suggest it if it helps the place make sense. To add another layer...what happens when we (the GM Team) make reasonable, logical, "middle ground" decisions on behalf of some realm or faith or whatever....and some of you (the players) disagree? You get the same situation as now, where extreme decisions or no decisions are made and players disagree with the extreme or status quo. A living world where something happens and PCs have a chance to affect it is better than a stagnant world where nothing appears to change and PCs are forced to initiate everything. It means both sides are participating. yes, kings and queens should be growing old and dying. So should a lot of PCs. We're not going to enforce that strictly. The reasons should be obvious on the PC end of things, and for NPCs, well, the issue is that time in NWN is far, too accelerated for us as a game world to really keep up with in a meaningful way. We'd have to be doing this as a full-time job to do so, and all but the most active players would get left in the dust. I'm sorry, but this is an example of the all-or-nothing mindset. "If we do it, we have to do it on schedule for everyone, so we won't do anything." No, man. Calm down. Imagine Row is taking care of Trelania. She decides that Calwhatever in Hlint is retiring and has him replaced with a new pawn NPC. Maybe there's a party. Maybe it just happens quietly. That's all. No worry about time scales. No pressure for anyone else to be replaced. Just a little change. Done. It's not all and it's not nothing - middle ground. Easy.
48
« on: October 23, 2011, 01:32:28 pm »
Evil: Orders the siege of the cultist hideout after calling for surrender, once its obviously not responded to, he blanket-labels all cultists as resisting arrest, worshippers of evil gods and assaulting officers and gives a kill-on-sight order. His men are likely better trained and equipped and will cut down all in their path unless they drop weapons, fall to their knees and beg for their lives.
Those might be spared (meaning minimal risk to the guards and rofies. Any prisoners taken from the wounded or surrounded will all be given the maximum sentance that the law allows (likely death), nevermind who had a choice or who didnt; they are all evil and must be purged for the safety of good, decent folk.
It may even be that the Inquistor takes no prisoners and plays judge/jury/executioner, deeming them too dangerous and insane to transport for trial and may value the lives of the 'good guys' over the enemy, even if its within their duties to risk themselves to capture people alive; thus summary field executions for everyone in the evil cult, captive or rebel, brain-washed or faithful.
Law is satisfied, evil is done, but honour and virtue may still be displayed if prisoners are taken but later executed after trial, as unarmed men werent killed and they WERE given a chance to surrender before the attack. Note honour and virtue aren't -always- the same as goodness. This is the best example I've ever seen, in this thread or elsewhere. Still, I'm not sure I'm following. Are you saying that one character made all these decisions? If you are, then that is exactly demonstrating my point. (And if you aren't, I am really lost.) It has been confirmed for the Good-Evil axis that you can't be Good by doing Evil. The ends do not justify the means. If you use Evil means to achieve a Good end, you have still done Evil. It's the manner you behave that matters, not your end goal. That must also be true for the Law-Chaos axis. If you do Chaotic things for a Lawful purpose, you're Chaotic. You cannot uphold the law by breaking it, as Jennara has often said. You cannot be just by being unjust. You aren't following the rules if you break the rules. And the Rofireinites are really big on rules and order and the system. If one character takes it upon himself to be judge, jury, and executioner, he is no longer following the rules. He is outside the system. He may get away with it once or twice, but as the church finds him to be prone to bouts of chaotic behavior, they will trust him less and less. He will be unlikely to be promoted. He will be more likely to be demoted. If he follows the order and system laid out - which is extremely important for a Rofireinite - then he can't act on his Evil very much. Someone not acting on his opinions and beliefs is just like a Neutral character - he feels it, but he lacks the action to make it matter. Do you see what I mean? A Rofireinite is somewhat analogous to a police officer in the real world, who can't just shoot every criminal but must stay within the rules of the system. The system and the rules are a big part of what it means to be Rofireinite. If you aren't following the system, why are you playing a Rofireinite? The rules are part of the challenge; don't ignore them.
49
« on: October 22, 2011, 09:23:09 pm »
Going with the context you yourself use, would a paragon of virtue and honor use evidence he's not 100% sure about? Would he use it, and let the court decide whether it is admissable or not? If the court would admit it, and the doubt would still be lingering, would it still have been a good act? There's no yes or no, black or white in this. There is in this case, actually. Whether or not to withhold evidence is not a Good-Evil question but a Law-Chaos question: "Do you or do you not believe in the system of the courts, and in the order and duties of each member of the faith? Is it not the duty and position of the judges to determine the admissibility of evidence in a trial?" Whether or not the character likes the possible outcome is immaterial. Will he follow the rules, or will he turn against the rules when it suits him, thus proving himself bound for Neutral rather than firmly within Lawful? But at the same time you ask in this thread to define a lawful neutral Rofi in a few words Acacea covered it. That was a question about Dremora's scenario. If you look at the world we ourselves live in, you'll find that notions of virtue, honor and order are not neatly defined concepts. They're actually very ill defined concepts that are often something you aspire to be, rather than simply are. You'll find honor has a completely different meaning if you ask a Voraxite, and then a Rofirinite. So too, do these shades of grey exist within the Rofirinite faith. because in the end, they are only words. True enough, but this is a fantasy world; we can define things. Doesn't it seem like the church of order should be more orderly? I know someone will take this to extremes, so I'll point out explicitly that I would never expect or ask that everything be laid out as completely as it would be in a real Rofireinite church. Still, some structure, explanation, guidance, even restriction would not be a bad thing. Define concepts. Give meaning to the words. Not insanely specific, but less whatever-you-can-justify-to-a-DM-or-CA. It's really wild and random right now. Chaotic. That's the wrong thing to be. And the poorly-fitting Evil makes it worse. (Also, with respect and potential apologies to Lance, his character seems very "harsh end of LN with low Charisma" to me. I admit to limited interaction, though.) To Dremora, that's why very nearly every PC is actually True Neutral, no matter what the record says. If a character is not behaving in a certain direction a majority of the time, they cannot really be said to be that alignment. If you aren't Lawful a lot, you're really just Neutral. If you aren't Chaotic a lot, you're really just Neutral. If you aren't Good a lot, you're really just Neutral. If you aren't Evil a lot, you're really just Neutral. I don't disagree with the motivation concept, but isn't that really table-top level stuff? How can we expect all our characters' motivations to be monitored and tracked to show we're really being X and not Y, especially in the past however long of bare calendarness when it's just player-to-player? (Also, don't worry, everyone. I never win this argument about the Evil Rofies. No one cares what I think.)
50
« on: October 22, 2011, 07:49:40 pm »
Where is the honor and justice in lying? What makes the thug in gold better than the thug in black from the commoner's perspective? Aren't the thugs in black more powerful than the thugs in gold in Vehl, anyway?
51
« on: October 22, 2011, 07:45:38 pm »
What does the Lawful Neutral Rofireinite do?
52
« on: October 22, 2011, 07:04:40 pm »
What is the difference between a evil/lawful Rofi and a good/lawful Rofi? Both Lawful Good and Lawful Evil Rofireinites believe in upholding the law, supporting order, protecting the people, seeking justice and being just, and being honest and honorable. The difference is that Lawful Good Rofireinites fit into that pretty well, while Lawful Evil Rofireinites have to be shoehorned, rules-lawyered, and have a blind eye turned to fit at all. Also, the concept of Lawful Evil Rofireinites causes forum arguments... because they don't really make sense. There may be some other minor differences. Excuse me for not answering plainly sooner.
53
« on: October 22, 2011, 04:52:52 pm »
I apologize if I made you uncomfortable.
I guess "given a chance" makes sense, but if a LE character is being suppressed by his environment and code to the point where he's indistinguishable from a LN character, is he really LE? That sounds really fishy. TN usually indicates someone, like most commoners, who may have opinions about things but lacks the conviction to do anything about it most of the time. If a character is labeled Evil but lacks the conviction to take those steps and be Evil, isn't he just Neutral?
How Evil can anyone who follows the code of Rofirein really be, anyway? "Aid others whenever and wherever possible as long as it is in accordance with the law and does not make way for acts of evil." They've been ordered by their god to help others, as long as it's legal and doesn't... permit evil *shrug*. "The common people are the strongest force in bringing order and prosperity to all. We must protect them." Prosperity for all is right there in the commands, too - you protect the people and help support order so that everyone can prosper. That's law and order for the people's sake. That doesn't sound anything like keeping people in line so that order is maintained; it's not law and order for the sake of law and order. There's no aura of oppression in it. There's no keeping order at all costs, even if it means oppressing the populous. "Dedicate your life to justice." That's pretty strong - dedicate your life. It's not, "Think about justice once a month." It's really, really, really hard to be Evil and be just, because Evil is about killing people and being selfish and all that. Well, all the killing is right out with Rofirein; you can't just go around murdering people. This can't be anything like baby-eating Evil. They aren't even allowed to immediately kill people they know are guilty. And how selfish can they be with justice in the way? They can't lie about who gets the credit; that's unjust. They can't sabotage someone else to gain a promotion; that's unjust. They've dedicated their lives to justice, so how can they go around being unjust, especially intentionally? So what's left? Just wishing death on criminals? Not making a very big offering? Pff.
And that's just the regular stuff. Once you get into the Knight of the Wyrm oath, it's leaning heavily into Good territory.
54
« on: October 22, 2011, 03:31:04 pm »
So now alignment has nothing to do with current actions or desires, but what a character might do in some distant, uncertain future? And even in that distant, uncertain future, one Evil trait or one type of Evil action negates all Neutral and Good traits and actions, forcing an Evil alignment?
No character is a perfect example of any alignment. Every character does things leaning away from his alignment from time to time. It's expected that a Good character will do a little Evil (and a lot of Neutral), and that a Chaotic character will do some Lawful stuff (and a lot of Neutral stuff). If a character "walks a tightrope" between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil, and most of his "falls" from the tightrope land on the Neutral side, he's Lawful Neutral. It's expected he'll do something Evil now and then, or that he has an Evil trait of some sort. That doesn't make him Evil. It makes him normal and well within the predicted range of Lawful Neutral characters.
55
« on: October 22, 2011, 01:49:04 pm »
In terms of Vehl, Rofireinites have made some leeway with the people on the streets. Its not as 'bad' as it once was nor as bad as it 'could be'. So maybe, if nothing else, the Rofireinite presence in Fort Vehl has prevented it from becoming an openly held Corathite stronghold. Then isn't that a big victory in the scheme of things? Not if you also keep supporting the government against the good of the common people. It is not necessary to support a government to support the people under that government. And supporting that government and those laws means spitting in the face of Rofirein's law, being Lawful Stupid and following because those are the laws before them. Also, no Rofireinite player to my knowledge in recent times apart from one has tried to do anything about the status quo in Vehl. Please forgive me, but this is where I start to get a little angry. I'm all for players and PCs being able to affect the world. That's really cool. But to sit on your hands and pretend that these huge, powerful organizations - whether they be churches or kingdoms or whatever - just do nothing at all unless a PC initiates it is stupid. I understand there are only so many people with so much time to work on background stuff, but there has to be some consideration that these organizations can and do do things on their own, and at a speed at least comparable to a single PC. The world makes no sense otherwise. Things have to change from time to time without player input. And not just, "Oh, hey, I'm running an event here. Can I switch this up," but also, "Oh, hey, let's retire this NPC and replace him with this one, and make this change over here because this government is doing that. And maybe in two or three months, we can have this change as that government responds, and also make these two changes as that church and that criminal organization take action," without running any particular event at all. The world should be alive without us. I got the information about Rofirein justices administering the Rael law from this Lore passage:
The citadel of Rofirein governs trials, sentencing, and handles the paperwork for both ingoing prisoners and the rare outgoing reformed lawbreaker. Yes, but it's not a church anymore. The center of the faith moved from Prantz to Western Gate. What was once the Citadel became just a fancypants court house, basically. So the building, the Citadel of Rofirein, does do all that stuff, but it's all full of Rael's judges and lawyers with a handful of Rofireinite observers and paper-shufflers. To this man, he is a paragon of virtue and honor. He's hunting the enemy of the city's order. But he'll go to any lengths to accomplish his goal, and even though he may catch someone that is merely associated with the gangs that he hunts, and that the person may not have performed the action personally, he will see that they all get the harshest penalty for their crime- death. It's the method of cutting out the entire problem, and anything else that the problem may possibly have touched that makes him evil. It's his methods. He isn't doing anything illegal. He won't go to any lengths because he won't break the law. He won't lie on a report or in court because that would be to dishonor himself before Rofirein. He won't commit murder. He knows he's not the executioner. He won't break into anyone's property; that would be illegal. He can't even be sure they get the punishment he wants because he's not the judge. Otherwise, he pursues his case, sets stakeouts, makes arrests... just like all the other Rofies. So in the end, the only thing that keeps him from being Lawful Neutral is that he wants all criminals dead, right? There are days when Jennara wishes all criminals were dead. Think we should change her alignment? Don't you (you plural, everyone) think that's pretty weak, a really big stretch to put that guy in the Evil category? If your only Evil trait is wanting criminals dead and the only Evil action is pressing the judge for a death sentence, with all other traits and actions being Neutral or Good, are you really Evil?
56
« on: October 22, 2011, 12:59:09 am »
The Divine Law is something substantial, but it's not actually something we can go look stuff up in. At least, that's the way I understand it. The courts in Prantz are actually Rael's courts, with Rofireinite observers. So there is no Rofireinite judge to sentence anyone in Prantz. That is my understanding and experience (Jennara testified there once, not happily). In Layonara you have to play your alignment correctly. If you are evil you have to do the usual evil stuff. I concurr with you that it is impossible to play a L/E Rofireinite unless you bend the rules and play instead a LN alignment. Playing a certain deity does not give you justification for playing outside your alignment which is why I said its a contradiction. Once you water down evil and play it very light you are no longer playing evil but something else. "Amen" seems a proper response.
57
« on: October 21, 2011, 11:45:17 pm »
"The Rofireinites are almost always portrayed as a bunch of Lawful Stupid guys who follow whatever rules are in front of them, which is a shame."
I think that might be just a slight over exaggeration. If it is, it is very slight. Look... In Vehl the idea was to be the same but its proven to be more difficult than anyone could imagine. Lord Kezed has resisted all attempts by the Rofireinite heirarchy to merge their ideas onto his governing of the city despite years and years of ongoing attempts. While they still do a lot of good there it really is a point of light in an otherwise disparate chaotic darkness. And for those people who can be shown that point of light the Rofireinites realise it they close up shop and move somewhere else would be to betray those who can be saved or who can try and better themselves. Vehl is a tough nut to crack and may never crack, but someone has to try right? Look at this situation and consider how it is handled, not just by players but by DMs. Here the Rofireinites are, trying so hard to bring Vehl closer - at all - to Divine Law, to bring some stability and order and real justice to the place, but have failed to make any change for at least a couple of centuries. Centuries. Yet, instead of trying a different approach, withdrawing approval, they continue to act along with and support these corrupt laws. What incentive does anyone there have to change and compromise with the Rofireinites? The Rofies are Lawful Stupid and keep participating and enforcing the corrupt laws! They follow the laws of Vehl and Co'rys because those are the laws in front of them. This is like having the Pyrtechonites set up a temple in Western Gate, where they try to convince people to burn everything to the ground while simultaneously sending priests out to help build new houses and shops. "What you're doing is utterly unholy, just an atrocious sacrilege from our perspective that we think you should change, but let us help you out. Looks like you could use a hand." What? They should keep trying in Vehl, of course, and never give up. They should try something new, though, not keep doing the same thing that hasn't worked for the last ten or more generations. If a LG High Justicier ever came to run the temple here things might get a bit different. They would be more forceful in their demands for change and might even condone acts that shift the balance of power to someone more suited to the goals of the church. However to my knowledge LE members of the Rofi faith are not as common as other types which makes this scenario fairly unlikely in the future. I'm not following this part, by the way. You started with LG and ended with LE, and I'm not sure which you mean.
58
« on: October 21, 2011, 08:16:10 pm »
Also the religion is an organization with ranks and leaders and followers and here is also where you'd see good and evil come to play. LE could be someone who has their eye on rising to the top of the ranks as quickly as possible and will climb over everyone else to do it (in a way that doesn't actually break laws, but is still very selfish.) Where maybe LG doesn't seek power at all and always works as part of a team and puts others before them. I'm not trying to pick on you; this is just a good example of how justice, honesty, and honor are lost in the shadow of law. Everyone does it, for some reason. If the faith and church were only about laws and rules, this sort of thing might be true. But there's so much more to it. It's not one-dimensional. "You are a paragon of virtue and honor." "Dedicate your life to justice." Consider honor, honesty, and justice in the example above. Yes, elsewhere (aka not in the Rofireinite church) LE might make such a power-grab, but not within the church. How is clawing over the more deserving honest, honorable, or just? If a LE character "embellishes" a report to give himself more credit so he appears more eligible for promotion, he has been dishonest, dishonorable, and unjust. How is that in line with Rofirein's commandments? It's very hard to play an Evil Rofireinite. That's not any sort of "I challenge you to try it." I actually suspect it would be very frustrating. I have a LG Rofireinite and feel frustrated pretty often, with far fewer problems balancing alignment and dogma. This is what I was saying before about an Evil Rofireinite basically just being a LN guy having a bad day. You can't honor Rofirein's dogma and do the usual Evil stuff. It's a very, very light-weight Evil. You set a Rofirenite loose in a corrupt city who no doubt have laws or atleast fronts of laws, I seriously doubt he would care about them. His god's decree comes first.
Like with Vehl, if they reject the Gold, are known for corruption and whatever else, and they place some law down that doesnt coincide with what Rofirenite and the other gods laid out, they arent going to care I wish that were so. Not very long ago, a PC committed crimes in Vehl and was tried, sentenced, and executed by Rofireinites. Admittedly, those actions would have been crimes pretty much anywhere, but that's no excuse to help the corrupt government. If Vehl and Co'rys want the legitimacy of the Rofireinites, they need to clean up and get more in line with Rofirein's law and open, proper justice. Maybe they're fine with the mob boss style, and that's fine. The Rofireinites can help the people directly and ignore the government, refusing to grant their stamp of approval. The Rofireinites are almost always portrayed as a bunch of Lawful Stupid guys who follow whatever rules are in front of them, which is a shame. So if you can reasonably argue the mentality or reasoning behind whatever action your character makes, well you should be alright. The problem here is that mentality and reasoning are fine in-character, but the rules are clear on what is Good and what is Evil out-of-character. If a character does something Evil, it's Evil no matter how you justify it. "Yes, I slaughtered the entire orc tribe, but they were raiding the fields and caused starvation in the village!" Well, good for the villagers, but you still murdered innocent and guilty alike without concern for their lives or dignity - that's Evil. Good is about respecting all life, not just life that looks more or less like real life humans. It also doesn't help that people with good imaginations can more easily think of ways to justify anything. This is part of why no one can pin down Robin Hood's alignment without someone else offering a reasonable rebuttal.
59
« on: October 21, 2011, 04:07:58 pm »
It is silly to bring it down to 'law of the land' level. What that does is make the Rofireinite faith pointless. Every kingdom, every town, can make laws, and they will differ depending on the nature of the rulers of those places. Having Rofireinites go along with whatever local laws exist means making them mindless drones. Keeping track of a hundred different sets of laws is actually very chaotic, not orderly at all.
What is orderly and sensible is remembering it is a faith, with a very order-loving god of law and justice and protection, and that it is Rofirein's law that should be followed above all. Sure, follow the laws of mortals as much as you can, but remember they never ever trump Rofirein's law.
You may notice a preference for the chaotic over the orderly in reality. I can't explain that, though I have complained about it. Rofireinites are so well-respected around the world that having them run the courts is a show of legitimacy. Rael didn't wreck the Rofireinite Citadel in Prantz, did he? Think of Vehl, though. It's full of people who spit in the face of everything Rofireinites hold sacred. It's fine to set up a temple there and try to spread the word, but to assist with laws and a system of 'justice' everyone knows to be corrupt to the core is exactly the opposite of what Rofireinites should be doing. "These laws make a mockery of our Lord Protector and our faith. We should support them to our dying breath." Seriously? Support to the government should be given in proportion to their acceptance and alignment with Rofirein's law and justice. How does supporting the corrupt government protect the people, or uphold justice? It's not all about law. It's not all about court. Anyone can make laws. Anyone can run a trial. It's about Rofirein's law and just trials, and doing things The Right Way. That's what should be underlying everything, so that it is an orderly church with a firm foundation, rather than a bunch of simpletons following rules because they are rules.
Without going into detail (because, holy cow, would you hate it - you should thank me), the Evil available to Rofireinites is so weak as to be almost indistinguishable from a LN character having a bad day, OR creates situations where the character is essentially a 'tough punishment' machine who seeks such justice as to cause injustice elsewhere, which isn't very Rofireiny, is it?
60
« on: October 20, 2011, 07:57:03 pm »
either the character ends up alone as they are so evil (or known to be evil) that no other character will stay with them, or, the evil part of the character is dumbed down so that they can be accepted by other characters in a party. These are general questions, aimed not at Xaltotun but tossed out for consideration by all: Why are Law and Chaos more compatible than Good and Evil? Why is the Good/Evil axis treated differently? Why are Good and Evil considered 'farther apart' than Lawful and Chaotic? Lawful and Chaotic characters travel together all the time, and even become very close friends, despite having very different outlooks. Why is the same not possible with Good and Evil characters? Aren't Law and Chaos just as opposite as Good and Evil?
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