Abuse of Power versus Roleplay Logic

[Chongo]

This is not meant to be inflammatory, I just ran into a bit of a hiccup last night at the party and was curious what the team's stance on this was.  It seems like an edgy call to me and I'm honestly not certain which way to go on it in regard to roleplay versus server rules.

And as a precursor, I have nothing against character A or how they did this. This is just an honest question and I'm curious.

Little Scenario:

- Drinking Contest with Will-o-whisky going on
- There's a nice prize in the background everyone can see
- Contest goes that whoever wobbles (fails check on drinking) is out
- Character A uses a spellcraft check to create an illusion of having drank her bottle, that my character, the judge, has no possible or mathematical way of beating
- Character A wins as an epic character with this high check.
- I call her on it, against my RP, and say she's been cheating
- GM sends tell saying I have no way of knowing this, so I shrug and give character A the prize.

*Note that GM said I should find a creative way of uncovering the truth, but I outright laughed seeing as how I was trying to manage a large crowd of players and all the events therein, and didn't have convenience of DM powers.  It was bloody cat herding mayhem.

Anyhow, here's where I'm kinda wobbling on the fence deciding which way to go on this.  Let me change the skill check a moment for discussion's sake.

- Character A is an epic barbarian now, and uses an Intimidation skill check, in the region of a base skill of 67, which nobody around them has a chance in hells of beating.
- They 'bully' their way into winning the prize using this oppressive intimidation check which is quite logical, but seeing as how they are focused in that skill and are 14 levels higher then their fellow competitors, it's impossible for present company to compete.

Now how do you feel about it?  Just curious.  This is not a flame.

[Leanthar]

I don't think that should have happened. There has to be a point where right is right and cheating is cheating.... and yes in RP sort of ways it is going to happen....but in this case I personally would not have allowed it to happen.
 
 This was a player run event, run by you if I am not mistaken, as such you are the one that had the right to set the rules (clearly and equally to all) and the GMs "job" was to protect the community (clearly) but to also support the player run event as the player in charge wished it to be run.
 
 If the player (any player) cheats or is not fair/right they will not be able to run very many successful events as players will naturally stay away.
 
 With that said.... I can see how the reasoning by the player and the GM ran on this and I can see how they both did/said what they did...but it was your event, you set the rules for that specific event. So long as it is clear and equal and fair across the board to all involved.
 
 There is one thing of RP'ing and having fun...and quite another of using the systems to get something one desires. There really is only so much systems can do and be allowed for, and to me this sounds like one of those situations.

[jrizz]

You know Chongo I was thinking about the whole driking contest thing myself. And I thought I would use Barb rage to up my Con for a better chance, Then I thought to myself that really that is cheating. So I think the use of magic to win was cheating as well. But if you or no one around you could tell well then they have to get away with it. Although you had some really high level PCs there of good alignment at least one of them should have been able to see through that.

[Honora]

I would say that a contest like that should be open across the board to all levels.  The "illusion" should not have been allowed, plain and simple, because it de-leveled the playing field.  While it was not cheating, and if that were on a quest it would be thinking outside the box, under the circumstances it shut out all but another epic-skilled character from the possibility of winning.

I think that if epics and lower levels complete in games that are not based on anything other than fun or RP, a non-skill based system for winning should be employed to make sure that everyone has a chance.  If not, then the epic will rarely, if ever, be beat and the fun factor is gone.

[LynnJuniper]

Firsly,  I Asked Pankoki Before I did it to make sure it was okay, and he said there was nothing wrong with it so long as I acted more Drunk. if the consensus is that this should not have happened I will GLADLY give back the prize that I have won.

Agian. I wouldn't have done this if I had not asked the GMs opinion of it first.

I've also stated on about three different occasions that Rhynn IN character and Out (me) Would find a way to make it up to this character. If this is considered unacceptable out of character than plain and simple, it never happened. and the prize is given back.

I do however, wish that Chongo would have said "I dont like this" to me, while it was happening, or when I said to him "Rhynn is going to use an illusion to trick you."

a simple "No dont please" and I would've bowed out

Its sad too, now that I think about it, that other epics had a chance to call her out and make her look a fool. A few did roll SC checks and I went as far as to tell them "You know what she's up to". I was FULLY expected to be called out as a cheater and to have Rhynn humiliated.

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With all that I must admit that it makes me kind of sad to see this brought into the public eye when I would've done all that I could to fix it. @Chongo I don't know if you're mad at me for doing it, or if you just wanted the opinion on what the GM said was okay or not or what..I just don't feel very good about it anymore and thought it was all in good fun. Im just not so sure anymore

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Then again, if Im taking the situation too personal. hah Sorry for the misunderstanding

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That said, The illusion in question was a rather simple (For one with Epic Spell Focus) One. Make the bottle seem empty then get rid of it really really fast so no one would spill it/feel its full etc.

I showed Chongo the bottles..I kinda expected them to be grabbed/examined/spilled on her. Would've been funny...


Oh, Something I could've done : Mentioned that the DC for spotting the illusion was quite low. The poor girl was half drunk to begin with.
--

So in all: Yes, Some people know what Rhynn did, yes She's willing to take the consequences for that, yes she'll probably eventually feel bad (her Alignment is still close to the good tip of the scale) and make it up to the player in question by explaining why that needed to be done, and doing something for the character that should've won.

[Weeblie]

Even though a illusion can be extremly real, to the degree that your character would actually think that what he see is what happens, without any doubt, it still lives wriggle room for "disbelief by principles".

A dwarf seeing a weak elf mage drinking bottles after bottles of the strongest ale in existence would most probably not belive what he/she is seeing. "BLOODY! IT CAN'T BE POSSIBLE! NO! YOU MUST BE CHEATING!"

Of course... heh... this particular stereotype thinking should also have the same negative effect if the tawny elf mage really did manage to do the (impossible) feat.

[jrizz]

I think it was cheating but not out of character. As far as RP goes this was totaly within character. Wren would not have used some to get an edge because he is a "good" aligned PC and it would be out of character. But I do understand the need to make these things fair.

[LynnJuniper]

As an extra bit about the Lower Level/Epic Fairness:

Er...Don't higher level characters by default get higher saves to beat the drink's DC then lower levels? *pretends , for a moment that she understands the technicalities of D&D*

[Acacea]

Weeblie, that's what Chongo did.

For IC reasons Acacea detected but did not call her on it publicly. But because her and a couple other people know, a contest of that manner is unlikely to be held that way again, and simple precautions will be taken next time, in character. I don't feel this is grounds to talk OOC about the unfairness of epics forever after, because this incident will not repeat itself...for in character reasons. A "hope you enjoyed your one shot, you'll not have another one."

I am surprised that tells were exchanged with a GM, but not the player running the event, even when frustrations arose. I think things would have turned out differently if they had.

(As a sidenote to jrizz, "good" does not really have anything to do with cheating or 'fairness,' so maybe you were looking for 'not lawful.' )

[IceDragonDuvessa]

I would have to respectfully disagree with Leanthar on this one. With a DM present to mediate the situation I see no reason that it would need to be brought to metagmaing to call the character on her actions. Characters work hard to level up and have skills and abilities at their disposal, when we start expecting people to not use the items at thier disposal things become less fun for them too.  

Seeing that it was Rhynn that did it, it seems well within the bounds of how the character is Rpd (not sure what her alignment is offhand though so maybe not) I DO think absolutely that someone who had seen through the illusion should have called Rhynn out on it and when Chongos character grabbed the bottles to see that they were still full he should have had full knowledge of what really happened. There should ALWAYS be IC consequences for IC actions but it can all be handled through good roleplaying and perhaps a little mediation.

Comparing it to Intimidation is a bit different because chances are that you know youre being intimidated and can hire a body guard or get authorities to rectify the situation.

If you have another drinking contest, make sure you have true seeing up... or another character to help you judge. Kick rhynn out of the bar and put her in jail for cheating. Get mad and find her in game house and set it on fire *shrugs* there are countless IC avenues to handle these situations.

[DMOE]

Actually if I remember correctly Karl Drake beat Plen in the Arm's drinking competition so even though base modifiers are higher, nothing is ever a given.

[orth]

I think the complexities arise when a prize is involved. Once that comes into play things get a little touchy. If it was just about bragging rights then I think more often then not people would laugh about it and enjoy the use of an Epic's abilities. Once a real reward that could benefit individuals is involved, the playing field has to be equaled a little more.

You could compare it to say rolling for an item after an adventure. What would happen if some epic rolled an 18 on a d100 for an item, then followed it up with saying "No no, it's an 81" Rolls Bluff: 15+51. While proper for a devious character to attempt this, you have to somehow consider the ooc implications of the roleplay.

With that said I certainly don't think Rhynn was doing this to receive an item, prizes are nice yes, but I think she was just adding a bit of IC spice to the event.

--
Edit: Incidentally, Plen would have gotten more involved with this if orth wasn't too busy looking into a certain soul strand reimbursement request.

[Honora]

You could argue that an epic should win every contest because their numbers are higher across the board.

Would that be fun?

You could also make the case that Joe Fighter, while only level 2, say, has spent years in bars a) brawling b) drinking c) perfecting his method of getting drinks dumped over his head by insulted women.  And Mark Mage has spent years studying, abstaining except for the occasional wine, and generally taking care of his mind.  Which would be more likely to win?  Hence, a level playing field.

This would apply to any number of contests that are not quest related, I'd think.  But the biggest factor in the example stated in this thread is that by bringing the levels into it, a very large number of people were left out.  And based on what the initial poster said, I do not think this was the intent.

[LynnJuniper]

Alignment: True Neutral with enough tendency towards good to make her feel guilty as  once the bit she drank before hand wore off.

I fully agree with any/all IC consequence to this...and already am planning up ways for Rhynn's apology to come forth...(Come on haven't you ever gotten drunk and regretted something you did the next morning?)


and thanks for the vote of confidence orth..

[Acacea]

I just think it's kind of a drag to bring all this up after the fact and not to the one doing it, while it was still going on. Now it's an out of character thing - why bother? Rhynn will likely never be able to take part in a competition at the shack again, and there will be some people a bit closer to the action to make sure similar incidents do not arise.

Why? Because the characters probably thought "gee, we should have done that the first time! Silly us! It shall be remedied!" Rhynn got a small prize she probably doesn't even want to keep for pointing a sort of, shall we say, security flaw. There. Flaw patched in character, quietly exposed to avoid having an epic mage form a grudge against my character... (Edit - well, at least for that; I forgot she also drew a big smiley face with charcoal on Rhynn's face...)

I can think of a couple other ways this exact same thing could have been done to add some flair without (hopefully) causing bad feelings - for instance, winning, then taking the bottles and pouring them out one by one to the astonished crowd, handing them and the prize back to Ket and adding that she was just holding them for them or something silly.

This kind of thing just requires communication, though, primarily with the one running the event. It's also understandable that there were so many people he was trying to handle that he didn't send the tell, and that Rhynn assumed with GM affirmative that she wasn't doing anything wrong.

In response to Honora, I don't think that was the argument at all. I think it was just a question regarding the sentiment of "don't let epics use their skills in such contests for fun!" to ask, "don't they have some other skills that they can't help but use, ie aren't their saves naturally higher? How do you handicap that?" and not a "well, I have higher saves, we'll win anyway."

Acacea still plays coins at the Arms with Kali, despite there now being a huge level difference - she just uses a weighted coin. (Higher DC)

Ireth, Kharl was also a paladin at the time (heh heh), so I'm not sure if there was some divine save bonus aiding him in the drinking contest there. (Imagine Toran behind him, pounding his fist on the bar - "Chug, chug, chug!")

[DMOE]

Ireth, Kharl was also a paladin at the time (heh heh), so I'm not sure if there was some divine save bonus aiding him in the drinking contest there. (Imagine Toran behind him, pounding his fist on the bar - "Chug, chug, chug!")

*dies laughing*

[jrizz]

haven't you ever gotten drunk and regretted something you did the next morning?

All too often *hangs his head in shame* all too often

[LynnJuniper]

You assume Rhynn wasn't too drunk to form a grudge...

I fully plan on fixing this when she's sober, somehow.

[Pankoki]

A little belated I suppose, last night like Chongo said, was rather hectic. I was a bit distracted while the contest was going on, and to be honest I wasn't even aware that there was going to be a prize - significant or not.

Like my character, I was confused with what was going on, and there was a lot of talking at the moment, Rhynn emoted that she was making the liquour illusion itself out and asked me if it was fair for her to do that.

I simply said that, she's a good illusionist and that I doubt that anyone would debate the veracity of her illusions. What I did recommend is that she probably shouldn't just be rolling some insane spellcraft, but rather try to roll a bluff instead.

I'm not sure who talked to Chongo and told him that he  could not detect it. It wasn't me, but I probably should have communicated to him the same thing that I told Rhynn in order to keep things consistant. Again, simply a matter of not being fully aware the extent of the competition.

But ultimately, one thing I do believe is true about this whole thing, is that Chongo was the one running the event, as a GM I'm there to give advice, but it is not a matter that needs to fall in our hands unless there's some griping or conflict going on. Until that point, its entirely on the hands of the person running the event, which means that it falls on Chongo's call to see if it was fair or not.

[Chongo]

A preface that I hope people listen to this round:  Be at peace after you read this and we can all be happy again.

But to begin, a bit of disappointment...

I almost didn't post this because you really can't bring up anything on these forums without someone taking it personally, then skewing it slightly off base from the purpose of the discussion, then watching that happen 5 times over with other people until it's baselined to total unproductive nonsense.

I always grit my teeth when I watch one assumption follow another and finally something that started as a discussion that could potentially better the overall roleplay of the server, turns into defense and 'could of should of' from every peanut gallery possible.

I thought this discussion could maybe benefit the community.  I'd like to say thanks to everyone who put in honest input on the topic of discussion.  It's actually a good discussion.  To the rest, know that I'll go back to my standard forum-bred mentality of just never talking about anything and letting people wither or learn on their own while I just do my thing and watch some fade away because the benchmark is set that you're best off playing your cards close.  Let 'em rot and keep your slate clean right?

Anyhow, since this is now in the realm of worthless discussion, I may as well clear up any bruised egos or just plainly confused individuals.

I spoke with everyone via tells that evening.  If you didn't notice there were a lot of folks there.  And my text screen was green for the duration.  When Rhynn, no longer character A I suppose, did her illusion trick I snickered, then proceeded to recieve tell after tell from other people.  I addressed Rhynn, she addressed me, I didn't address the GM, the GM addressed me when I decided to call out 'no fair!'.  I deferred, I corrected, backed off, no biggie, no hurt feelings.  The GM's not in the wrong, he made a call and it's good to go!  We disagreed but there was no argument or anything of the sort.  I could have shown more wit and curbed it back to where it was supposed to go, but it was a large crowd, things were moving slow, and I wanted to make sure there would be an adventure for everyone who took the time to come.  So drawing out anything on the letter of the contest was not in the cards for the benefit of the event.  Honest, there was no angst or issue, stop inflaming this, there's no drama to be had.  I gave the losers of the contest great gifts, really great gifts actually, I jibed with Rhynn a bit and we by no means left on a bad note.  She said she was going to make it up to the others, I'm pretty sure I told her it was no biggie and that I'd already gifted them.  I thought everyone was happy.

So that's that.  There's nothing else to be said on the issue of hurt feelings, anger, or angst.  Anyone still typing in that direction needs to stop, raise their right hand, smack themselves, take a moment, read the initial discussion, then get back on track.

So, to be clear.  Back on track isn't:

- "Why is xxxx angry at me?"  They're not.  I'm not.  I'm in a zen like state watching my dogs roll in the grass outside, and I have incense burning in the corner.  All is well.
- "Chongo you need to run your events like xxxx and keep xxxx in mind."  Uhh... PM me if you have constructive ideas, but I left DM'ing a long time ago and am not looking to better myself on this front.  So let's not worry about this.  It's the Shack, not the final battle with Bloodstone.
- "Well what I saw was this....!"  No, no, no.  We're talking theory here folks and what the team's idea on what par should be on this issue.  We don't need to do a recap on things, I did that in game, on the spot, and figured everyone was at peace with it.  
- "So and so should've done this to handle it better..."  How do you know what happened and why are you offering expertise?  Rhynn was handling it on her end, I was handling it on mine.  You have no idea the tells that were exchanged and that it was on the whole, dealt with well, courteously, and with some sincere love for fellow players.  Stop questioning that.

There was never any anger.  Things were dealt with in game.  The issue is closed, has been for a while, everyone left happy, wave goodbye.  This is about friendly opinions that happen to have varied and now we're figuring out what's right and what's wrong for the benefit of the server.

What is back on track is:
1) What is the proper way of doing this in the future, what's the team's take on it, and how can we generally improve our playstyle?
2) Is it okay to use an overwhelming roll for roleplay in general to turn events?  And what should we keep in mind when doing it?
3) Is it okay to use an overwhelming roll in a contest?  And what should we keep in mind when doing it?
4) Is it okay to use a 'bluffing' tactic in a contest?  And what should we keep in mind when doing it?
5) Is it okay to use a guaranteed win 'bluffing' tactic in a contest?  And what should we keep in mind when doing it?
6) In a contest you can't win fairly to the letter of the intended rules, how far can you go to warp the contest to your own benefit and strengths?  And once again, what should we keep in mind when doing it?

Okay?  Okay.