Aeridin - the truth behind the Dogma?

[Witch Hunter]

Alright, ill begin by saying lets keep this as clean and friendly as we can, so please avoid hostility otherwise it will lose it's purpose really quick.
 
As I've recently made an Aeridinite the "eternal struggle" that is the Dogma came up to my head, I've talked it over with plenty and, well, I want to bring the discussion to public because some sort of explanation has to be set in stone, no?
I'll address each and every point and well, let's discuss it! Or at least hope one of the big guys comes and clears it up.
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Problem number one: death and raise dead
Alright, so we're clerics and we gain the ability to raise the dead (Dead PC's, not skeleton chieftens, mind you). The Dogma states "bear in mind that in the Great Cycle of life, death also has its place" right? Now what do we do with raise dead? Is the death within the great cycle a death of old age or any death?...
 
 
Example for an unnatural death:
Mr.Pickles and Bob are traveling the roads when suddenly a group of bandits ambush them, then Mr.Pickles jumps to defend Bob, the defenseless cleric of Aeridin and dies doing so, oh woe is Bob.
But 'lo! Bob happens to have the spell raise dead within his spellbook, what is Bob to do?
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Problem number two: following groups
Alright this one is a serious bugger; as clerics of Aeridine are meant to protect and preserve life monster bashing is out of question - and I agree! BUT... what prevents a cleric of Aeridine to follow a group using heals and buffs to preserve THEIR life? (and their can refer to family, friends and anything important!)
 
 
The following comes in mind:
"Do not refuse to aid those who need it" - Doesn't the group need it?
"Preserve and protect life" - Isn't the life of the group worth protecting?
 
 
Okay, so you can counter-argue it by saying "Yes but they go out seeking to end life yadda yadda"... Correct, to a degree, heres a few points I thought of:
 
 
(1) What if these monsters the group seeks to put an end to are a threat? The Ogres in the Ore Hills threat Dalanthar, Hammerbound Giants threat Llast and so forth... by not killing them how many peasants perish under their savage rage? How many are put to an unnatural end because of these evil monsters? (pity we don't have detect alignment spell, no?)
 
(2) What if the group is infact just wandering around looking for CNR spawns or something of that nature when suddenly a group of ogres attack them? Self defense is forbidden - shouldn't a cleric of Aeridine at least try and preserve his own life if not the monster-bashing group? Hehe.
Now one can simply say "don't go to places where monsters spawn"... but, duh, monster-spawns are not exactly an in-character term, no? The dogma does state "Do not harm or kill others except in the most dire of circumstances"... what is considered a dire circumstance? Is life on the risk not dire enough to pick up a quarterstaff or at least heal those that pick up swords?
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Point number three: the fun factor
How much do these restrictions actually limit the players fun? We are here first and foremost to have fun fun fun. Now theres the very simple "play a cleric of a different god" response. But you'd be surprised how small our selection of gods really is... proof enough is that we lack many aspects to worship (for example trying to make something along the lines of a pain bearer of Ilmater is not possible) - And don't get me wrong, I like our gods.
 
How much of the fun factor do we limit by saying "don't do this, don't do that, you can't do this, it's forbidden"? Not everyone can attend DM quests every week, not everyone can sit in Hempstead when it's most crowded and hope a DM is nearby so he might a bit xp... and yes, everyone wants to level up because it opens doors to the more interesting places in Layo.
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And again, let's keep this civil and friendly!
:rolleyes:
 
 
~Witch.

[Interia_Discordius]

What I'd personally like to know is how far is too far when stretching the dogma of your deity.

[Faldred]

The Dogma states "bear in mind that in the Great Cycle of life, death also has its place" right? Now what do we do with raise dead? Is the death within the great cycle a death of old age or any death?...

I think this is intended to largely refer to the undead, as evidenced by another part of the dogma:[INDENT]Seek out the undead and put them to rest, so they can rejoin the Great Cycle.
[/INDENT]Besides, if Aeridin granted them the Raise Dead spell, then she obviously doesn't consider that to be artificially prolonging life, does it?  

[Witch Hunter]

Yep but without mentioning names I've been told otherwise, which is why I wrote it!

[Kindo]

Regarding the Raise Dead question. As I have been told in the past, all characters in Layonara have some sort of special purpose, which is what allows them to bind their souls to selected parts of the world and return to life if they die - unless the Soul Mother has managed to remove enough strands that keep the soul bound to the body. This basically means that the Cleric should know that the fallen comrade in question, is still not through with her/his purpose in life, and thus, raising them on the spot would not violate the idea behind "the Great Circle", seeing how their souls have yet to be denied contination of life.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this whole special purpose deal.

[Weeblie]

Hmmm... Aeridin is a... HE... *Coughs.*

Anyway... A little bit pressed of time for the moment, but I'll add a lengthy nice post about this topic later, heh.

[Gulnyr]

As I've recently made an Aeridinite the "eternal struggle" that is the Dogma came up to my head, I've talked it over with plenty and, well, I want to bring the discussion to public because some sort of explanation has to be set in stone, no?

No.  Or, at least, not necessarily.  

Every deity has a limited scope of what he or she governs, and there are rules within the dogma covering that range, but there is wiggle room within that confined space.  As you pointed out, there seems to be some contradiction or grey areas in Aeridin's dogma.  That doesn't necessarily need to be clarified and set in stone.  Every religion has conservatives and liberals, or orthodox and reformists, or whatever you want to call them.  There is space within the dogma for characters who look at the same doctrines from different perspectives, which makes the faiths dynamic and fun to roleplay rather than cookie-cutter plain and predictable.  

On a smaller scale, though, you are right.  Each individual Cleric should have a personal concept of the dogma more or less set in stone.  The extra paragraphs required at the end of a submission are meant to get the player to consider just exactly how the character perceives the dogma, and make sure that concept is inline with the spirit and nature of the faith.  That way, the player knows how to play the character's view of the dogma as soon as he steps into the world.

I might have some responses to your specific examples later to hopefully explain what I'm saying a little better.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Let's not forget, also, the Oaths and Vows of Aeridinites (though they're specifically for Paladins, I would certainly think they'd apply to Clerics and other devout characters).

I've been playing a devout of Aeridin for a while, now, and I've come to the conclusion that he's terribly fundamentalistic. He won't (and hasn't!) ever kill(ed) a living being. He feels that it's Just Plain Wrong, and beside that, against the will of the Lifebringer.

I've heard the argument time and again that "if you don't go to a place looking to fight, but looking for, say, gems, then it's not bad if you have to kill to protect yourself! It's the intent that matters!" I have to say that that is purest rubbish. Sure, spawn points are OOC knowledge. But really... If you go into a place known as "The Red Light GOBLIN Caves," it's rather obvious you're going to find goblins. Goblins are warlike, typically speaking, and busting into their place... Well... That's going to end in violence. Solution? Don't go.

Ceviren is on track to become an Undead Slayer... After all, it's all he does. Kill deaders. He cleanses the crypts and makes potions... A working-class cleric, if you will.

[Skywatcher]

It seems to me that the point of the thread is to get concrete guidance from the team on how this is to be interpreted.  Even devout people can differ on their interpretation of dogma so one cleric of Aeridin may think that preserving the life of his friends is paramount and another may say that stepping on grass is killing and thus wrong.  Requiring that everyone have the same interpretation just removes the flexibility for RPing diffent slants on belief.  The real problem for clerics and paladin types comes when a particular interpretation is actually in opposition to what the diety thinks and would thus result in the removal of the diety's support.  So what I think is needed is for the team to lay down any specifics that must be adhered to and then for the players to go ahead and have their interpretations and RP it out.  Here are a few specific questions the team could answer that might help everyone understand Aeridin's intent.

1.  Does Aeridin disapprove of killing to get at CNR (I know this is OOC). To say it another way, does killing what attacks you while you are going somewhere for some non-killing purpose violate the dogma of Aeridin?

2.  Does healing your party and preserving their lives while they are killing for whatever reason violate the dogma of Aeridin?  Does it depend on what the party is doing?

3.  Does raising the dead violate the great cycle?

4.  Does protecting life by taking life violate the dogma of Aeridin?  (An example of this would be thinning the giants in the Hammerbound Mountains to protect the peasants of Fort Llast)

These answers would be very helpful.  If a black and white answer is given then there is no room for interpretation.  If the answer is that it depends on the curcumstances and frequency of such activity then there is room for interpretation and different characters can RP it differently as long as they are self consistent with  their interpretation.

*waits for a response from an avatar of Aeridin*

[Pseudonym]

G'day Witch Hunter,

Not sure if you have been granted access to the Aeridin forum as yet ... but there are a few posts there that address some of your questions of interpretation of dogma (perhaps most notably by Weeblie).

I played a priest of Aeridin for some time and let me tell you, it is not easy. The questions that Skywatcher asks above are not easily resolved ... when is it right to take a life to save a life, etc, etc? It is very easy to come up with RP excuses over RP reasons.

Anyway, check out the forum if you haven't already done so and I hope you enjoy the ongoing RP challenge that comes from playing a servant of the Lifebringer.

[Pseudonym]

PS. Here were some of my IC thoughts on the matter.

http://www.layonara.com/development-journals-discussion/108339-letters-harred-valtara.html

[LynnJuniper]

I remember my attempt at a Paladin of Aeridin. one of the first questions I came to was the bindstone itself, as Aeridin's principles seem to contridict the unnatural prolonging of life. Why bind at all?

A good person to talk to in game would be Elladan. He is a cleric of Aeridin and could answer some in game questions. I know I've gone to him at least once with my paladin

Unless I am mistaken, Rhizome is an Aeridinite as well, and can be found in game on occasion.

the other cleric I know of Aeridin who may be able to help is Alleina.

As Pseudonym said, you can check the forums, ask in game, and in addition remember: The new handbook is coming out and may answer some questions....or cause more to arise. I won't say

[Witch Hunter]

I've heard the argument time and again that "if you don't go to a place looking to fight, but looking for, say, gems, then it's not bad if you have to kill to protect yourself! It's the intent that matters!" I have to say that that is purest rubbish. Sure, spawn points are OOC knowledge. But really... If you go into a place known as "The Red Light GOBLIN Caves," it's rather obvious you're going to find goblins. Goblins are warlike, typically speaking, and busting into their place... Well... That's going to end in violence. Solution? Don't go

Alright, let's consider this for a moment.
First of all when I enter an area I don't refer to it as how its called within the mod, the "Red Light GOBLIN Caves" is simply "A Cave That Glows Very Red", but alright, I've there once or twice and I know the goblins are down there and decided I won't go. Okay, where do I get Greenstone now?
The desert caves! No, wait, those are full of bandits too...
 
 
Well my point is there is a thin line between whats frustrating to a player to what would be roleplaying the Dogma.
 
 
Now let's look at the dogma....
"preserve and protect life" - being a passive cleric that doesn't defend himself is NOT protecting life, it's throwing your life away to protect the life of your attacker, which is BAD. But then you can just say "Don't go there"... Which infact means playing a cleric of Aeridine is limited to not going everywhere and not experiencing the world as a player should which means the player is limited in having fun just because he chooses a god that focuses on healing.


BUT!!!


That is not what I asked! I agree that the cleric himself SHOULDN'T do the slay, but healing a fighter or following a group into "hunting grounds" just for heals and buffs is considered bad also? How is he meant to get xp (sorry for the blunt term, but xp is something that people want)? DM quests? Those involve fighting too on occasion.


And extend it a bit... would Aeridine really deny a cleric its powers if it was healing an injured person even though that person is fighting HOSTILE beings that attacked him?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

My Aeridinite is more or less a non-rabid fanatic. His views are rather... Unyielding. That said, I agree with him; if Aeridin doesn't want you to kill except when there is a direct threat on you, don't. Part of that is not provoking those threats whenever possible.

That strict a view on the dogma really cuts into the fun factor for most players, I understand.

[Witch Hunter]

Few quotes off the paladin dogma:
 
"Devote yourself to life. If there is any way to prevent death and preserve life, it is the way of Aeridin. "
 
Refer to Ogres being a threat to X location
 
"Help others live a full life, and harm not the harmless."
 
Refer to Ogres carrying big clubs and beating people with them
 
 
And no where in the dogma/paladin code did I find "Aeridin doesn't want you to kill expect when there is a direct threat on you" - it would be selfish.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I repeat: Fanatic. One still searching for an appropriate mentor so he can enter the church of Aeridin officially, I should add.

[Hellblazer]

You have the dogma on lore, which from my knowledge Lore is mostly ooc and you got the dogma in game found on the statues of Aeridin and this is what is written.

Preserve and protect life, the gift to exist is not one to be taken lightly and thus one must live an exemplary life, devoted to benevolence and care. Tend to those who ail. Offer your gift of healing to make their stay in the mortal realm a wholesome experience, yet once death has taken its toll, respect the passing and enjoy the found memories of their life. Do not dwell or mourn those who past for too long, death is sadness, but without understanding sorrow, one can not understand happiness.

Promote health and the well being of the body and mind before everything else. Any extension, transformation, alteration and corruption to the natural form and shapes of being, is an affront against the sanctity and purity of life and should be confronted at first, with gentle lessons and benevolent teaching, and if such ways do not work, with a stern and firm stance instead. Violence is the last option; use it only on those who defy these teaching.

undeath is the most blatant aberration to the sanctity and purity of life. Put them to rest by any means necessary so that their souls may reach their homes. use the gift of the Caring light, to bring brightness to the darkest of places, never succumb to its temptation for they only bring a taint on the spirit

Now if we go by simple facts. The only thing the character would have access to is what he would find at the temple or at a library. As a matter of fact it happens that this piece of written was take from the shield that guards the entrance of the Aeridin temple in north point. And when you enter and look at the statue inside the temple you get again, "Aid those in need"

Now as Stephen pointed out, the vows of the paladin could be applied to the clerics and so here it is:

Devote yourself to life. If there is any way to prevent death and preserve life, it is the way of Aeridin.
Judge not others. By judging others, you yourself are judged.
Honor your words and live by them. Your oath is as true as these laws.
Help others live a full life, and harm not the harmless.
Help those in misfortune, for gold is valueless next to life.
Heal the sick and wounded who ask for assistance. Those whom you have deathlessly defeated remain your responsibility.
Abandon all greed, hatred, and evil feelings towards others. These close the mind to truth and engender a hatred for life.
Pay homage to life by living freely and allowing others the same.
Respect those who would teach you and ask nothing of those you teach.
Respect the laws of mortals, but remember always that your fealty is to the laws of Aeridin.
Pledge your life, soul, and word to Aeridin. Never should you worship another and never should your faith falter.
Not Pride, Humility. Not Greed, Generosity. Not Envy, Love. Not Wrath, Kindness. Not Lust, Temperance. Not Gluttony, Moderation. Not Sloth, Zeal Never Evil, always Good. Bring light to the darkness and you shall always be counted among Aeridin's blessed.
Wear the symbol of Aeridin with Honor, Love, and Devotion. Never rape, steal, or murder.
Take only what you need, and give only what you can.

Now when you check lore for that it is plainly written These are the laws of Aeridin.

Devote yourself to life. If there is any way to prevent death and preserve life, it is the way of Aeridin.

Help others live a full life, and harm not the harmless.

Now what makes a harmless? I think it is someone that how ever angered he is or hatred he has could never result in harming someone. Now would someone who charge at you weapons drawn, fist close, saying I'm gonna smash you harmless?

Many people say that Aeridin shun violence and that it is forbidden, but yet he asked of us to go forth and bring the light, to do every thing necessary to give rest to the souls of the undead and even to teach the lessons to those who defy the teaching of Aeridin. First with caring and benevolence, then with stern and firm stance.

Also a fact, if a God is purely about peace and life, he would not have enemies and yet, Aeridin has a few.

Pytcheron
Shadon:
Branderback:
Corath:
Baraeon Ca'duz:
Vierdri'ira
Grand

I know that a lot of people have a resistance toward the alignment, but if you look at the one of Aeridin, it is everything that is good from chaotic to Neutral

Neutral:
Never attack or kill an unarmed foe.
Never harm the innocent.
Always tries to help others.

Lawful:
Never attack harm or kill an innocent foe.
Never harm the innocent.
Always help the others.

Chaotic:
Never attack or kill an unarmed foe.
Never harm an innocent.
Never kill for pleasure.
Always tries to help others.

And the most illogical one for this faith

True neutral:
May or May not attack and kill an unarmed foe.
May or May not Use, hurt and kill an innocent without a second thought or for pleasure.
Will not kill for sheer pleasure.
Unlikely to help someone only to kill or rob him.

All of these are to be taken into consideration when you play your character. As some says, the alignment is a representation of a fraction of the persona of your character and his response to certain events. But when ever you take all of this into consideration one things remains, beside for True neutral, and it is the Always help others, Never harm a innocent.

Now for certain if someone comes to you and ask you please go kill this man he walked on my land, you should not go and kill him. What you would do instead is go talk to that man and try to make him understand that his presence on the land of the person who came to you, is undesirable.

But at the same time, if someone comes to you and ask for you guidance, clerical help and protection while they are doing business in an area that may be dangerous to them, the dogma is plainly clear in that, Aid those who ail, extend your healing gift so they can live longer ( that is the essence of what is written) and a wholesome life, Never refuse to help. Help other lives a full live but do not harm or kill the harmless. If so that we should always refuse to help because there would be the risk that can harm or kill someone, then every Aeridinite should refuse to get out of bed in the morning, fearing he might step on a small ant and kill it. Also, the do not go to areas that you know if you know there is foes there and there would be killing, instead go to places that you do not know. After a while, you get around, and there isn't many places you have not seen, does that mean that you should abandon your call as a cleric to heal and help the people?

Now if we take this example, A father or mother that comes to you and ask for you help, while he or she gathers the resources he/she needs to make his/her craft and put food on the table of his/her family and you refuse to go because there might be the possibility that you will end up fighting and killing a living creature. Do you obey the tenants? I think not and a result in that could very well be that this person dies and no one is left to support the needs of that family. They get thrown into the street and die of famine. It doesn't mean that you will go ahead and charge in, no it would mean that as a cleric or any other member of the faith, wither it be a paladin, monk, sorcerer etc, that you would stay back and defend yourself and the person you are accompanying and heal them.

There is a blatant difference between a cleric and a priest. The priest remains at the service of the temple and aid those who comes to them. The cleric will go out and meet those who needs their help.

As to the not raise the dead, as you also receive spells that deals with instant death, you receive the spell to raise the fallen.  Now I am sure that if the team wanted them to, the could very well take the spell out based on the alignment and deity, after all they were able to customise the summons based on deity and alignment. But I may be wrong. Instead view it like kindo stated, as long as they have soul strand, they have a strand of life still in them, and as a cleric it falls onto you to make sure that this person lives a full life, until it is said other wise by Aeridin and the soul mother.

If someone died from a natural cause, or sickness, it would fall into the has made its time. But falling dead from killing is after all, an abrupt end of life, that is not natural.

When I started Lex, I had some of the same questions and after RPing with Eghass it came down to, it is the intent behind the action that defines if it is within the dogma or not. In this I am referring to the fact that, Lex had went with a group of clerics and RPied making the mountains near shoufal (sorry don't remember the name) safe for travelers and the town itself. The intent was not to kill, but to preserve the town people from raids made against it by Giants. Some may argue that it is wrong some may argue that is it alright. But it all comes down to how you yourself will interpret the dogma, and how conscious you will make decision based on that interpretation of it.

[Witch Hunter]

Very well said and points out many of the things I failed to pharse.

[Dorganath]

OK, in actuality, the dogma of Aeridin recently (a few months ago) underwent a bit of a shift due to events that happened in-game.  This is outlined on the Aeridin forums to which you may request access. I suggest that should be the starting point of any further discussions, if you have not already consulted that resource.

I do want to say that the information on the statues in-game is not necessarily the most current version of the dogma for any deity or that deity's relationship to the other deities.  In reality, since it's far easier to change, the dogma that appears on the forums and LORE are likely to be the most up-to-date and accurate.

[Witch Hunter]

Well I applied to the fourms earlier, still havent gained access.